France To Challenge US F-35 Fighters’ Dominance With Stealthier & Hypersonic Missile-Enabled ‘Super Rafale’

[AlKardai]

France challenging the US?
Why are we discussing this?

 

[waz]

Yeah but the Captor E isn't really being mass produced, its been incredibly delayed. And it was built by Leonardo. Which is what I was saying the UK codevelops and some skills have atrophied, and supply chains are dependent on others. I would put a state that independently develops platforms as ahead of a state which isn't. Thats not to say the UK couldn't develop it if they wanted to, just that they currently can't produce them and don't have the supply chains for it. Its the same thing with the Challenger 3, The British are dependent on Rhinemettal for development of the challenger 3, and their own domestic gun manufacturer has gone out of business, b/c of atrophy.

Why did you leave out the part where I wrote about the Tempest? France is quite behind with FCAS, and thats's also a multinational project. Hence your posts writing about the UK codeveloping sound strange, especially as you allude to it being a weakness, when the French are doing the exact same thing now due to costs.
Yes the Radar was built by Leonardo but co-developed with BAE help ,but that's part of the process i.e. they are a joint partner. BAE could have easily gone it alone. Look at projects like Sampson (ship based).
The UK goes down the cost effective route and it's not about being ' non-dependent' but about economies of scale and shared knowledge.
The tank project is being built by RBSL which is a joint venture between Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land systems with sites in Telford, Dorset, Bristol, and Newcastle. and will be built in the UK.

 

[hyperman]

Why did you leave out the part where I wrote about the Tempest?

B/c I made the same comment earlier in the thread. So didn't feel the need to address that point.

France To Challenge US F-35 Fighters’ Dominance With Stealthier & Hypersonic Missile-Enabled ‘Super Rafale’

France To Challenge US F-35 Fighters’ Dominance With Stealthier & Hypersonic Missile-Enabled ‘Super Rafale’ EUROPE ByRitu Sharma June 17, 2023 The Russia-Ukraine war has ensured that the combat jets must re-invent themselves to stay relevant in the age of unmanned aerial combat vehicles and...

defence.pk

I was responding to the labeling of the French Aerospace industry as 4th tier and with the British being put higher, I mentioned outside of Engine development there really isn't anything that they are less than the UK in, if anything they they are arguably ahead in terms of technical development as their projects have been developed entirely in their ecosystem without a reliance on outside partners. Its undeniable that the British have atrophied in term of the platforms they used to independently produce, not just in aerospace but in other matters as well(compare British aerospace and defense from the 70s to now).

Even if we compare the eurofigher to the rafale, its no question which platforms have been more developed and which one has had more success in exports. Eurofighters were limited in the Libya campaign b/c of inadequate air to ground development. The AESA was delayed, it cost more among other issues.

Britain is a state in decline, and over time has become more and more reliant on the US and in many ways is really just an appendage of the american state. Companies have gone bankrupt or have been bought out by US based defense contractors, If Britian decided to build a tank I doubt its powered by Cummins considering they got bought out by caterpillar. At this point only BAE and RollsRoyce are a significant force. Most of British Shipbuilding is based in Scotland, if Scotland gains independence those assets with go with scotland as well, it would not be surprising in the future if British platforms would end up being built by the US, or "codeveloped" and then transfered over to the UK. If the Europeans decided to do something intelligent like create Airbus equivalent for Engines, merging Safron, MTU, Leonardo, and Spanish engine makers it can be debated if Rolls Royce would survive, I don't see them taking enough marketshare from GE and Pratt and Whitney for US military platforms.

 

[Deino]

France To Challenge US F-35 Fighters’ Dominance With Stealthier & Hypersonic Missile-Enabled ‘Super Rafale’​

EUROPE
ByRitu Sharma

June 17, 2023

The Russia-Ukraine war has ensured that the combat jets must re-invent themselves to stay relevant in the age of unmanned aerial combat vehicles and long-range air defense missiles.

French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation is coming up with a ‘Super Rafale’ F-5 that will be paired with loyal wingman combat drones and new ammunition for suppressing enemy anti-aircraft defenses.
Equipped with joint jamming radars along with self-defense systems, the Rafale F-5 will create a ‘protective bubble’ for itself and other equipment that will go into the battlefield with it.
The aircraft will evolve into a techno-system called “Club Rafale.”
Rafale, which means ‘gust of wind,’ is the frontline fighter jet developed by France. It took the aircraft a long time to gain a foothold in the international military aviation market.
But now that it has bagged some big clients, the biggest peeve of Dassault is that its frontline fighter jet has been beaten by the US F-35 war jets in almost every competition and wargame.
According to a French defense website, ‘Meta Defense,’ the ‘Super Rafale’ or Rafale F5 is going to evolve to a whole new level. “It will be an Air Combat System, based on a system of systems and not just as a combat aircraft, as is still the case with the Rafale F4,” the article reads.
As reported by the EurAsian Times, the French Ministry of Armed Forces tabled the amendment earlier this month to provide more information about the Rafale program’s upcoming efforts, particularly those related to the new F5 version that will be developed under the Military Planning Program (LPM) 2024-2030.
This development is significant because Europe’s next-generation fighter jet program, known as the Future Combat Aircraft System (FCAS), in which France is also a participant, is finally moving after being caught in the doldrums for a long time.

The French armed forces are hopeful that the evolution is likely “to profoundly change the relative positioning of the Rafale on the international scene, particularly against the American F-35”.
The French Air and Space Force (FASF) operates what is called the F3-R standard version of Rafale. It was developed and launched at the end of 2013 and was inducted into the FASF in 2018.
This version of the fighter jet is an upgraded version of the Rafale F3 standard. The F3-R version carries the Meteor long-range-air-to-air missile produced by MBDA. It is equipped with the Thales Talios new-generation laser designator pod that gives it a high degree of precision in air-to-ground strikes.
It also has a laser-homing version of the Safran Air-to-Ground Modular Weapon, from which comes its capability to destroy targets at ranges of several tens of kilometers with metric precision. It is also adapted to target mobile targets. The sensors in this version have also been upgraded to ensure interoperability.
The Rafale has proved its potency in conflicts over the last decade. It took part in operations in Afghanistan and Libya. Their capability to remain airborne for a longer duration also came to the fore as the French forces destroyed enemy targets in Mali.

File Image: Rafale

Loyal Wingman Drone​

The Rafale F5 will have combat drones -nEUROn, integrated into its system. The experimental UAV nEUROn will have a degree of autonomy while remaining attached to the main aircraft.
The drone will be controlled by the Rafale itself, the crew having “the function of coordinating and optimizing the efficiency of this system of systems.”
The news report calls the F-35 A representative of the 5th generation, whereas the Rafale F5 will herald the era of 6th generation fighters. The US Air Force will also be equipping 300 of its F-35As with combat drones, like the Rafale F5, under the Next Generation Air Dominance program (NGAD).
The article, however, asserts that even if the F-35 was equipped with the Loyal Wingman-type drones, its relative advantages to the 5th generation, such as stealth and data fusion, will have been “erased or reduced” to turn into a 6th generation fighter jet.
The Rafale, however, will be able to rely on requirements that are much more of this new generation, particularly in terms of payload capacity and autonomy.

Super Rafales Could Pack More Punch Than F-35?​

The operational panoply of the Rafale has been lacking in suppressing enemy anti-aircraft defenses, commonly referred to by the acronym SEAD. The F5 variant is going to make good on this shortcoming.
The article points out that the capability will be based on “the joint use of radar jammers in addition to the self-defense systems of the device, to give him the possibility of including other devices in his protective bubble.” The anti-radiation munition is designed to go up the radar beam of the adversary and destroy it.

F-35 Via Lockheed Martin
The Rafale F5 will be designed to deploy the new Franco-British missiles – Future Cruise Missile (FCM) and Future Anti-Ship Missile (FASM) instead of the SCALP/Storm Shadow cruise missiles and AM39 Exocet.
These futuristic missiles will have advanced features, such as stealth or hypersonic speed, to go up against modern air defense systems while giving the Rafale “highly advanced long-range strike capabilities.”
The Rafale F5 will also be equipped with a pod merging the capabilities of the Talios target designation pods and the Reco NG reconnaissance pod.
The Talios pod will be integrated with Rafale F4 to enable it to perform air reconnaissance and ground/surface attack missions. The pod provides a wide-area search and target identification capability and can switch instantly into target acquisition and tracking mode.
Its high-resolution sensors provide a color picture of the tactical situation to simplify the tasks of Rafale pilots. The Reco NG is presently installed on Mirage 2000 and Rafale and, with its long range and high resolution, provides intelligence imagery.
The pod with qualities of both the Talios and RECO NG will give “the hunter and air-to-ground, air-to-surface and even air-to-air tactical vision of high precision” and thus will have multiple operational options while remaining in non-transmission mode.
The Rafale F5 will be designed to carry the new nuclear-powered ASN4G hypersonic cruise missile, which will be replacing the French nuclear air-launched cruise missile air-sol moyenne portée (ASMPA) in the two Air and Space Force squadrons and the French Navy aircraft.
It will be part of France’s nuclear deterrence.

• Ritu Sharma has written on defense and foreign affairs for over a decade. She holds a Master’s Degree in Conflict Studies and Management of Peace from the University of Erfurt, Germany. Her areas of interest include Asia-Pacific, the South China Sea, and Aviation history.
• 

  France To Challenge US F-35 Fighters' Dominance With Stealthier & Hypersonic Missile-Enabled 'Super Rafale'

  The Russia-Ukraine war has ensured that the combat jets must re-invent themselves to stay relevant in the age of unmanned aerial combat vehicles and long-range air defense missiles. MUST READ: In A $4.7 Billion Deal, L3Harris Looks To Acquire Aerojet Rocketdyne; Why It’s Time To Keep Lockheed &...

  eurasiantimes.com

Really? Eurasiantimes???

 

[Bilal9]

France To Challenge US F-35 Fighters’ Dominance With Stealthier & Hypersonic Missile-Enabled ‘Super Rafale’​

EUROPE
ByRitu Sharma

June 17, 2023

The Russia-Ukraine war has ensured that the combat jets must re-invent themselves to stay relevant in the age of unmanned aerial combat vehicles and long-range air defense missiles.

French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation is coming up with a ‘Super Rafale’ F-5 that will be paired with loyal wingman combat drones and new ammunition for suppressing enemy anti-aircraft defenses.
Equipped with joint jamming radars along with self-defense systems, the Rafale F-5 will create a ‘protective bubble’ for itself and other equipment that will go into the battlefield with it.
The aircraft will evolve into a techno-system called “Club Rafale.”
Rafale, which means ‘gust of wind,’ is the frontline fighter jet developed by France. It took the aircraft a long time to gain a foothold in the international military aviation market.
But now that it has bagged some big clients, the biggest peeve of Dassault is that its frontline fighter jet has been beaten by the US F-35 war jets in almost every competition and wargame.
According to a French defense website, ‘Meta Defense,’ the ‘Super Rafale’ or Rafale F5 is going to evolve to a whole new level. “It will be an Air Combat System, based on a system of systems and not just as a combat aircraft, as is still the case with the Rafale F4,” the article reads.
As reported by the EurAsian Times, the French Ministry of Armed Forces tabled the amendment earlier this month to provide more information about the Rafale program’s upcoming efforts, particularly those related to the new F5 version that will be developed under the Military Planning Program (LPM) 2024-2030.
This development is significant because Europe’s next-generation fighter jet program, known as the Future Combat Aircraft System (FCAS), in which France is also a participant, is finally moving after being caught in the doldrums for a long time.

The French armed forces are hopeful that the evolution is likely “to profoundly change the relative positioning of the Rafale on the international scene, particularly against the American F-35”.
The French Air and Space Force (FASF) operates what is called the F3-R standard version of Rafale. It was developed and launched at the end of 2013 and was inducted into the FASF in 2018.
This version of the fighter jet is an upgraded version of the Rafale F3 standard. The F3-R version carries the Meteor long-range-air-to-air missile produced by MBDA. It is equipped with the Thales Talios new-generation laser designator pod that gives it a high degree of precision in air-to-ground strikes.
It also has a laser-homing version of the Safran Air-to-Ground Modular Weapon, from which comes its capability to destroy targets at ranges of several tens of kilometers with metric precision. It is also adapted to target mobile targets. The sensors in this version have also been upgraded to ensure interoperability.
The Rafale has proved its potency in conflicts over the last decade. It took part in operations in Afghanistan and Libya. Their capability to remain airborne for a longer duration also came to the fore as the French forces destroyed enemy targets in Mali.

File Image: Rafale

Loyal Wingman Drone​

The Rafale F5 will have combat drones -nEUROn, integrated into its system. The experimental UAV nEUROn will have a degree of autonomy while remaining attached to the main aircraft.
The drone will be controlled by the Rafale itself, the crew having “the function of coordinating and optimizing the efficiency of this system of systems.”
The news report calls the F-35 A representative of the 5th generation, whereas the Rafale F5 will herald the era of 6th generation fighters. The US Air Force will also be equipping 300 of its F-35As with combat drones, like the Rafale F5, under the Next Generation Air Dominance program (NGAD).
The article, however, asserts that even if the F-35 was equipped with the Loyal Wingman-type drones, its relative advantages to the 5th generation, such as stealth and data fusion, will have been “erased or reduced” to turn into a 6th generation fighter jet.
The Rafale, however, will be able to rely on requirements that are much more of this new generation, particularly in terms of payload capacity and autonomy.

Super Rafales Could Pack More Punch Than F-35?​

The operational panoply of the Rafale has been lacking in suppressing enemy anti-aircraft defenses, commonly referred to by the acronym SEAD. The F5 variant is going to make good on this shortcoming.
The article points out that the capability will be based on “the joint use of radar jammers in addition to the self-defense systems of the device, to give him the possibility of including other devices in his protective bubble.” The anti-radiation munition is designed to go up the radar beam of the adversary and destroy it.

F-35 Via Lockheed Martin
The Rafale F5 will be designed to deploy the new Franco-British missiles – Future Cruise Missile (FCM) and Future Anti-Ship Missile (FASM) instead of the SCALP/Storm Shadow cruise missiles and AM39 Exocet.
These futuristic missiles will have advanced features, such as stealth or hypersonic speed, to go up against modern air defense systems while giving the Rafale “highly advanced long-range strike capabilities.”
The Rafale F5 will also be equipped with a pod merging the capabilities of the Talios target designation pods and the Reco NG reconnaissance pod.
The Talios pod will be integrated with Rafale F4 to enable it to perform air reconnaissance and ground/surface attack missions. The pod provides a wide-area search and target identification capability and can switch instantly into target acquisition and tracking mode.
Its high-resolution sensors provide a color picture of the tactical situation to simplify the tasks of Rafale pilots. The Reco NG is presently installed on Mirage 2000 and Rafale and, with its long range and high resolution, provides intelligence imagery.
The pod with qualities of both the Talios and RECO NG will give “the hunter and air-to-ground, air-to-surface and even air-to-air tactical vision of high precision” and thus will have multiple operational options while remaining in non-transmission mode.
The Rafale F5 will be designed to carry the new nuclear-powered ASN4G hypersonic cruise missile, which will be replacing the French nuclear air-launched cruise missile air-sol moyenne portée (ASMPA) in the two Air and Space Force squadrons and the French Navy aircraft.
It will be part of France’s nuclear deterrence.

• Ritu Sharma has written on defense and foreign affairs for over a decade. She holds a Master’s Degree in Conflict Studies and Management of Peace from the University of Erfurt, Germany. Her areas of interest include Asia-Pacific, the South China Sea, and Aviation history.
• 

  France To Challenge US F-35 Fighters' Dominance With Stealthier & Hypersonic Missile-Enabled 'Super Rafale'

  The Russia-Ukraine war has ensured that the combat jets must re-invent themselves to stay relevant in the age of unmanned aerial combat vehicles and long-range air defense missiles. MUST READ: In A $4.7 Billion Deal, L3Harris Looks To Acquire Aerojet Rocketdyne; Why It’s Time To Keep Lockheed &...

  eurasiantimes.com

I don't know why our OP Israeli flag brother continues to quote Godi media articles like these. We all know the pedigree of Eurasian Times and who finances this Internet rag. As soon as I heard "Ritu Sharma", the credibility metric took a massive downswing.

She knows as much about the F-35 and Super Rafales as I do about qualities of 15 year aged fine single malt scotch, both zip, zilch and nada....

Typical bhakt skillset, people manning phones in India giving advice on fixing dishwashers, who have never in their life even seen one....

 

[Broccoli]

Yes of course they will...They've always been fourth tier in the world of aviation behind the US, Russia and the UK, and they will remain as such.

How is France behind Russia? If we forget Su-57 whats in really slow production all new Russian fighters still come out of the factory with PESA radar (at best case) installed and without capability to use targeting pod.

 

[Bilal9]

Hi,

Very innocent post---.

There is no love lost between the french & the americans when it comes to nationalism---.

Don't sell the French short---. They would love to beat the sh-it out of the f-35 at every chance they would get---.

Prior to WWII - French Tech (especially aviation tech) was far superior to US standards. When the US built aviation installations and local aviation sector companies to supply them, some of them were still making copies of French Aircraft. SNECMA (CFM Int'l) to this day is the largest engine supplier to 737's and other aircraft (especially LEAP engines).

CFM International - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was the French who built the Eiffel tower and donated the statue of Liberty to the US as a brotherly gesture.

 

[MastanKhan]

Prior to WWII - French Tech (especially aviation tech) was far superior to US standards. When the US built aviation installations and local aviation sector companies to supply them, some of them were still making copies of French Aircraft. SNECMA (CFM Int'l) to this day is the largest engine supplier to 737's and other aircraft (especially LEAP engines).

CFM International - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was the French who built the Eiffel tower and donated the statue of Liberty to the US as a brotherly gesture.

Hi,

French would love to rub american nose in the dirt and make them look bad---.

If it came to that---the americans would beg----threaten----trade benefits---trade sanctions---whatever they think would work they would do to stop a capable french system from progressing---.

 

[Bilal9]

Hi,

French would love to rub american nose in the dirt and make them look bad---.

If it came to that---the americans would beg----threaten----trade benefits---trade sanctions---whatever they think would work they would do to stop a capable french system from progressing---.

Yeah unfortunately very true. But Macron's recent visit to Beijing is a foreshadow of things to come.

The status quo and pecking order of world power has shifted....

It remains to be seen how much arm-twisting the US can do going forward.

Some people in Washington still haven't gotten a clue.

The sooner they do - the better it is for the rest of us in the US.

 

[BON PLAN]

France challenging the US?
Why are we discussing this?

Sure that it can't be the GB case, as you are becoming the latest US state.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes of course they will...They've always been fourth tier in the world of aviation behind the US, Russia and the UK, and they will remain as such.

France behind GB? you are pulling our leg Bro !
Your latest jet, built with 3 other european country, is a technical and export failure.
France Alone sell more M2000 than Tornado and more Rafale (it's even not the end) than EF2000.
About radar : we are ahead than you at least 15 years (AESA).
So....

 

[Yawm al-qiyāma]

1.US 2.France 3.UK 4. Italy these are the most advanced right now in aviation and engines etc.

5. China 6. Maybe Russia

Soon Turkey will be fighting its way for the 2nd or 3rd place. Within next 10 years this will happen.

 

[MMM-E]

1.US 2.France 3.UK 4. Italy these are the most advanced right now in aviation and engines etc.

Italy doesnt have Engine technology

1 USA
2 Russia
3 China

4 France
5 The UK

Russia has everything including turbofan and Turboshaft Engines . France-The UK and Italy only can dream about it

-- MIG-35 , SU-27 , SU-30 , SU-34 , SU-35 and SU-57 Fighter Jets

-- MIG-31 armed with KINZHAL hypersonic Ballistic Missile

-- TU-95 , TU-22M and TU-160 Straegic Bombers

-- A-50 AWACS

-- TU-214R SIGINT/ELINT Aircraft

-- AN-124 and IL-76 Strategic Transport Aircraft

-- IL-78M Air refueling Tanker

-- MI-26 heavy utility Helicopter

-- KA-52 and MI-28 heavy Attack Helicopters

 

[BON PLAN]

1 USA
2 Russia
3 China

4 France
5 The UK

France is ahead of China. China is always struggling just to copy russian engines.
See their last liner : made aroung west engine.

So for me : USA > France = UK > Russia (due to short longevity) > China.

Russia has everything including turbofan and Turboshaft Engines .

Yes but lower longevity and more fuel gredy (because lower temperature in turbine)

 

[MMM-E]

France is ahead of China. China is always struggling just to copy russian engines.
See their last liner : made aroung west engine.

So for me : USA > France = UK > Russia (due to short longevity) > China.

Aviation Industry is not only Engine technology

Russia and China have everything from many types of Fighter Jets to Strategic Bombers ,
from AWACS to Strategic Transport Aircraft
from SIGINT/ELINT Aircraft to Air refueling Tanker
from heavy utility Helicopter to Attack Helicopter