Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[Zarvan]

You're out of extraordinary genius/ stupid @Zarvan that layered defense for covering whole missile spectrum CM to BM form land to air/sea/oceans like SM-6/3 ABM/Jets, RAM, ESSM for supersonic cruise missile and from land Patriot for Jets/ABM (SRBM) , THAAD for (MRBM/IRBM) MID COURSE DEFENSE SYSTEMS for ICBM, so why US developing those systems @Zarvan just for fun @Zarvan

For your information USA has not very Air Defense systems placed inside USA. And go ahead dude deploy as many Air Defense systems as you can. The moment war will begin children like you will realize that these systems can't stop the barrage of cruise Missiles which would be fired at us. Let's assume India fires 30 Brahmos at us through its ships. Even if you S-400 and THAAD and HQ 9 and BUK M3 and PANTSIR S2 and other systems at place, at maximum you can only stop 8 Brahmos 22 Brahmos will reach their target and and will make sure millions of Pakistanis die and our ships and our installations destroyed. Syria had its best Russian Air Defense systems at place not a single Tomahawk got intercepted. All of them reached target Janab. Even best Israeli systems can't stop all HAMAS rockets that is why they have also build massive bunkers in Israeli cities. And Hamas Rockets are total crap compared to what we will face janab.

But only a war will wake up a child like you. So keep living in your delusional bubble you would see soon How these Air Defense systems are not very useful against good quality Cruise Missiles.

 

[CriticalThought]

You're out of extraordinary genius/ stupid @Zarvan that layered defense for covering whole missile spectrum CM to BM form land to air/sea/oceans like SM-6/3 ABM/Jets, RAM, ESSM for supersonic cruise missile and from land Patriot for Jets/ABM (SRBM) , THAAD for (MRBM/IRBM) MID COURSE DEFENSE SYSTEMS for ICBM, so why US developing those systems @Zarvan just for fun @Zarvan

Every system that is developed always has a counter-measure. The aim of any weapons system is to:

1. Inflict unbearable damage.
2. Make the cost of repairing the damage very high.
3. Make the cost of defending from the attack very high.

A defence system has the opposite aims:

1. Protect from unbearable damage.
2. Maximize the cost (for the enemy) of inflicting damage.
3. Minimize the cost of defending from the attack.

In the case off missiles and missile defence, systems like THAAD and S-400 merely make the cost of inflicting damage very high. The way technology exists at the moment, these systems cannot defend against 100 cruise missiles. In order to do so, you would need to bear a very high cost by installing too many systems. And the advantage still belongs to the attacker. It is less costly to develop 1000 cruise missiles, than it is to defend against them. That is simply the nature of technology today.

Any modern battle is going to be a battle of saturation. By using low cost weapons, saturate the enemy's defences. Once the defences are weakened, strike with lethal weapons. Hence, it is going to be a game of precision and numbers.

Now you can do the maths yourself to see if we have reasonable numbers against an all out attack by the Indian Navy.

 

[Ultima Thule]

For your information USA has not very Air Defense systems placed inside USA. And go ahead dude deploy as many Air Defense systems as you can. The moment war will begin children like you will realize that these systems can't stop the barrage of cruise Missiles which would be fired at us. Let's assume India fires 30 Brahmos at us through its ships. Even if you S-400 and THAAD and HQ 9 and BUK M3 and PANTSIR S2 and other systems at place, at maximum you can only stop 8 Brahmos 22 Brahmos will reach their target and and will make sure millions of Pakistanis die and our ships and our installations destroyed. Syria had its best Russian Air Defense systems at place not a single Tomahawk got intercepted. All of them reached target Janab. Even best Israeli systems can't stop all HAMAS rockets that is why they have also build massive bunkers in Israeli cities. And Hamas Rockets are total crap compared to what we will face janab.

But only a war will wake up a child like you. So keep living in your delusional bubble you would see soon How these Air Defense systems are not very useful against good quality Cruise Missiles.

Yaar you have brain of 4 year old Kid @Zarvan ok i am asking you a simple question to you what your propose Type-52D intercept those supersonic/ subsonic cruise missile with a similar systems on Type-54 with exeption of H-9 @Zarvan If you telling us there is no weapons to intercept supersonic/subsonic cruise missiles @Zarvan

So why @Zarvan insisting his Proposed Type-52D if Type-54 do the same job effectively and cheaply @CriticalThought and i already knows this equations @CriticalThought and that doesn't mean that Pakistan don't upgrade defense @CriticalThought

 

[CriticalThought]

Yaar you have brain of 4 year old Kid @Zarvan ok i am asking you a simple question to you what your propose Type-52D intercept those supersonic/ subsonic cruise missile with a similar systems on Type-54 with exeption of H-9 @Zarvan If you telling us there is no weapons to intercept supersonic/subsonic cruise missiles @Zarvan

So why @Zarvan insisting his Proposed Type-52D if Type-54 do the same job effectively and cheaply @CriticalThought and i already knows this equations @CriticalThought and that doesn't mean that Pakistan don't upgrade defense @CriticalThought

He's not talking about defence, he's talking about offence. 52 will have more punching power.

 

[Ultima Thule]

He's not talking about defence, he's talking about offence. 52 will have more punching power.

@Zarvan is talking 10-12 , single 52D unit price is near to 1 billion dollar and how should we get 10-12 its a overcapability for PN @CriticalThought

 

[CriticalThought]

@Zarvan is talking 10-12 , single 52D unit price is near to 1 billion dollar and how should we get 10-12 its a overcapability for PN @CriticalThought

That's a question only he can answer. I was simply recapping what he said.

But, theoretically speaking, why can't we get a few 52s by 2030? Although, I would like to see a kind of Azm for naval weapons as well.

 

[Zarvan]

Yaar you have brain of 4 year old Kid @Zarvan ok i am asking you a simple question to you what your propose Type-52D intercept those supersonic/ subsonic cruise missile with a similar systems on Type-54 with exeption of H-9 @Zarvan If you telling us there is no weapons to intercept supersonic/subsonic cruise missiles @Zarvan

So why @Zarvan insisting his Proposed Type-52D if Type-54 do the same job effectively and cheaply @CriticalThought and i already knows this equations @CriticalThought and that doesn't mean that Pakistan don't upgrade defense @CriticalThought

Janab Type 52 D is not needed for Air Defense systems. Type 52 D along with Air Defense systems have VLS for long Range Cruise Missiles. Through Type 52 D we can unleash hell upon Indian cities like Chennai and Banglaru and Hyderabad and all other Indian Cities. We having Air Defense ships won't stop Indian Navy from launching aggressive war on us but when India will know that our Destroyers and Frigates will rain down the several cruise Missiles on their cities only that would stop India at bay. No Air Defense system can stop more than 5 to 6 Cruise Missile at one time and India will launch at least 30 to 40 at once.

 

[Ultima Thule]

That's a question only he can answer. I was simply recapping what he said.

But, theoretically speaking, why can't we get a few 52s by 2030? Although, I would like to see a kind of Azm for naval weapons as well.

yes 4 to 6 is enough for PN for the long term @CriticalThought

 

[Zarvan]

Every system that is developed always has a counter-measure. The aim of any weapons system is to:

1. Inflict unbearable damage.
2. Make the cost of repairing the damage very high.
3. Make the cost of defending from the attack very high.

A defence system has the opposite aims:

1. Protect from unbearable damage.
2. Maximize the cost (for the enemy) of inflicting damage.
3. Minimize the cost of defending from the attack.

In the case off missiles and missile defence, systems like THAAD and S-400 merely make the cost of inflicting damage very high. The way technology exists at the moment, these systems cannot defend against 100 cruise missiles. In order to do so, you would need to bear a very high cost by installing too many systems. And the advantage still belongs to the attacker. It is less costly to develop 1000 cruise missiles, than it is to defend against them. That is simply the nature of technology today.

Any modern battle is going to be a battle of saturation. By using low cost weapons, saturate the enemy's defences. Once the defences are weakened, strike with lethal weapons. Hence, it is going to be a game of precision and numbers.

Now you can do the maths yourself to see if we have reasonable numbers against an all out attack by the Indian Navy.

Yes and India will have around 80 Major Frigates and Destroyers and Corvettes soon. Sorry we can't match that number but India having 80 Frigates and Destroyers and Corvettes mean we need 24 Frigates at least. Which should have at VLS for firing long Range Cruise Missiles because only that fear that Pakistani ships will not come close but still can rain down several Cruise Missiles on Indian cities will keep India away. Other wise the biggest attack of India will come from sea.

 

[CriticalThought]

Yes and India will have around 80 Major Frigates and Destroyers and Corvettes soon. Sorry we can't match that number but India having 80 Frigates and Destroyers and Corvettes mean we need 24 Frigates at least. Which should have at VLS for firing long Range Cruise Missiles because only that fear that Pakistani ships will not come close but still can rain down several Cruise Missiles on Indian cities will keep India away. Other wise the biggest attack of India will come from sea.

Well, India has a larger coastline as well.

Given we have mainly a single sided approach from the sea, we need to concentrate on taking out the approaching enemy as far out at sea as possible. And at the same time, take the fight to the enemy.

I support creating a 360 degree threat environment for India. There should be a credible threat to India from both it's East and West coast. We need some out of the box thinking to achieve that. @Rafi could you share your thoughts on how to create a combined East-West threat for IN?

 

[Zarvan]

Well, India has a larger coastline as well.

Given we have mainly a single sided approach from the sea, we need to concentrate on taking out the approaching enemy as far out at sea as possible. And at the same time, take the fight to the enemy.

I support creating a 360 degree threat environment for India. There should be a credible threat to India from both it's East and West coast. We need some out of the box thinking to achieve that. @Rafi could you share your thoughts on how to create a combined East-West threat for IN?

Yes but India has enough coast guard to main that for two weeks in which they fight us. No other country will mess with India and imagining or even taking a chance that China will come to help you is stupid. India can pretty much bring their entire Navy against us. We have to come up with answer fast. When India was only 40 Major Ships than our 12 Frigates were good to defend ourselves but not any more. Now we need to have at least 24 to 30 Major Frigates and Destroyers and around 14 to 16 Submarines backed by at least two Squadron of Fighter Jets and several Anti Submarine Planes. Other wise sorry but we don't stand a chance. And I totally agree with your last part and for that part ships which have VLS for Cruise Missiles are needed.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Janab Type 52 D is not needed for Air Defense systems. Type 52 D along with Air Defense systems have VLS for long Range Cruise Missiles. Through Type 52 D we can unleash hell upon Indian cities like Chennai and Banglaru and Hyderabad and all other Indian Cities. We having Air Defense ships won't stop Indian Navy from launching aggressive war on us but when India will know that our Destroyers and Frigates will rain down the several cruise Missiles on their cities only that would stop India at bay. No Air Defense system can stop more than 5 to 6 Cruise Missile at one time and India will launch at least 30 to 40 at once.

so you want destroy our naval asset at sea and shores, They have Long range supersonics antiship (brahmos 600 Km) subsonic (nibray 1000-1500 km) so you assume there ship at the sea firing Brahmos and Nibray, they able to at naval bays of mumbai and chennai so how can we stop IN ship firing those missile, and don't assume that China will give you CJ-10 or HN- series cruise missile with 52D because China is signatory MCTR @Zarvan

 

[CriticalThought]

Yes but India has enough coast guard to main that for two weeks in which they fight us. No other country will mess with India and imagining or even taking a chance that China will come to help you is stupid. India can pretty much bring their entire Navy against us. We have to come up with answer fast. When India was only 40 Major Ships than our 12 Frigates were good to defend ourselves but not any more. Now we need to have at least 24 to 30 Major Frigates and Destroyers and around 14 to 16 Submarines backed by at least two Squadron of Fighter Jets and several Anti Submarine Planes. Other wise sorry but we don't stand a chance. And I totally agree with your last part and for that part ships which have VLS for Cruise Missiles are needed.

Out of the box thinking isn't about getting help from China.

There is the North Korea option as well. They have like 70+ submarines. If we could get a few SSBNs that would send nervous jitters in Delhi. I can assure you, credible deterrence won't be complete without SSBN. Whether we have the wherewithal for it or not, that's a different question.

 

[Zarvan]

so you want destroy our naval asset at sea and shores, They have Long range supersonics antiship (brahmos 600 Km) subsonic (nibray 1000-1500 km) so you assume there ship at the sea firing Brahmos and Nibray, they able to at naval bays of mumbai and chennai so how can we stop IN ship firing those missile, and don't assume that China will give you CJ-10 or HN- series cruise missile with 52D because China is signatory MCTR @Zarvan

We can't stop that is exactly my point but if India knows its cities will face same amount of hell from our ships only that would make India think twice before launching massive Naval Strike on us. Until we make sure that we have enough firepower through our Destroyers to wipe out massive Indian cities like Chennai and Bangaluru India won't hesitate bringing their entire Navy on us.

Out of the box thinking isn't about getting help from China.

There is the North Korea option as well. They have like 70+ submarines. If we could get a few SSBNs that would send nervous jitters in Delhi. I can assure you, credible deterrence won't be complete without SSBN. Whether we have the wherewithal for it or not, that's a different question.

SSBN can be bought from China. That is not the worry China will sell us any ship we want but they would not bring their own guys and their own ships to fight along with us against India. To build a 360 degree attack we need massive fire power through ships which we lack. Until we fill that gap sorry but current size of our Navy will not even manage to defend our sea for two days.

 

[Ultima Thule]

We can't stop that is exactly my point but if India knows its cities will face same amount of hell from our ships only that would make India think twice before launching massive Naval Strike on us. Until we make sure that we have enough firepower through our Destroyers to wipe out massive Indian cities like Chennai and Bangaluru India won't hesitate bringing their entire Navy on us.

So in that case we should Increase range of our CM rather relying on China That @CriticalThought referring to and you want that China will gives us ship launch long range CM in your wishful thinking @Zarvan China is signatory of MCTR @Zarvan