Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Technical grounds ....

I think the reality is that they have always had a problem in trusting Eastern Jets , however they really need to get past their bias , and assuming western avionics and product is superior its not longer valid

J10B , is a capable plane and should be in our airforce on grounds that it offers unlimited supply for Airforce vs 5-6 plane purchases from France or US after begging them for decades

Prority should be
>AESA
>Quantity
>Support parts
>Integration with our Awacs

Should all come into play

Back in 70's 80's they also had some technical grounds for not buying Helicopters instead buying planes

 

[MastanKhan]

J10B OR BUST

It makes absolutely no , reasonble sense , to let go of J10B which is a more Air-Air , role aircraft and instead go for Mirage 2000 which is slightly better then our Mirages

Getting spareparts of the Mirage 2000 would be a pain , seirously

J10B , would be nicely integrated with our AWACs platform , and also offer more air security its more agile and carrier more payload

In Todays warfare sometimes , you need to go for newer options.

J10B should be bought form China as was the origional plan for 2014

Mirage 2000 has no role in our airforce

Hi,

Indeed an extremely brilliant post----,

 

[Luftwaffe]

@Aeronaut can't find your Thread where you pointed out regarding establishing/upgrading dedicated Mirage ROSE Squadron for EW/ELINT. It was a good idea even so it could cost people need to look at Enemy and people need to look at building Capabilities.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Marey bhai.
When you have been on this forum as long as I have(since 2006) and heard from people of the calibre of Muradk, pshamim and Xman and have heard from Mastan khan persist in his very compelling arguments which have all been answered by the very people who were actually involved in the setting up of the deal it gets tiring after a little while. Sometimes my own irritability due to over ripening(old age) comes into it.
My argument is that the very commonality that people are proposing exists between M3/ M5s and M2K9s is nonexistent and therefore a nonstarter. Similarly being a new plane your pilots will require time to get used to and develop its operationalenvelope in which to function. This will take time and flying the plane and perhaps running it out ofits re.aining life before you learn enoigh about it to use it effectively. Another myth about PAF pilots having experience with the platform is actually hilarious as such pilots canbe counted on your fingers a d perhaps would not exceed 20.
Secondly the Nishanisque view that somehow the whole of the middle East is waiting to give us Khairaat of M2K9s is another bongey which has no bearing on reality.
The third supposition that THE FRENCH will somehow Jeoperdise their Rafale deal by allowing the UAE to sell the M2K9s to PAF is again beyond comprehension.
The next theing to consider is how do you get the money for these planes as you will have to pay for them. Given the choice between them and MLUed F16s what would be preferred by PAF and the reasons for it. The other factor to consider is what cuts you make yo allow this purchase and to what detriment.
The final point to contend is what would be the impression you will give to the world whom you are trying to sell your JFT by buying a plane whose production line stopped working 8-10 yrs ago . Why not put the same money intoJFT to bring it upto the standard where you dont need to look left and right.
What I lament is tomorrow someone will again say we can convert the MRF to look after M2Ks and the commonality of M3 series with M2Ks. Lastly if my comments have caused people grief I am sorry but really people need to read the topic in depth before making comments.
Araz

I read a few lines of you post had to skip please read you previous posts and also understand J-10B is not ready, J-10A is not something PAF wants to look at either last PAF officially said no J-10 are we clear [maybe post 2020 years which by the way is too late]? So your advocacy of J-10 smashed by PAF not me. It is also hilarious that PAF pilots would sit in J-10 and perform miracles in merely few months so please honestly and sorry to say stop bongiyan, you have infront of you Mirage III/V procurement and upgrades of ROSE PAF went for old platform MLUd it for 13 Years what we call the lost decade but PAF did put older platform in service successfully and is operating...now you think after 13-15 years PAF still has spares available from the previous purchase my opinion is PAF is manufacturing certain common and critical components and spare parts it is not something rocket science when you have infrastructure in place engineers are in place working experimenting testing develping. I remember Oscar said the problem is mis-management only, he also said alot of spares gone wasted by ground crew so anyone who thinks the spares are still kept like brand new tires is wrong on most accounts. You are teaching me logic of why buy mirages when we can work on JF-17 so let me ask you why buy F-16 when you can invest that money in JF-17 fair question No? Or let me ask you by buying Jordanian F-16s did you not dent JF-17 market when the potential buyer would say why did he pick F-16 when he has JF-17, we need to make sense look at sets of Capabilities readily available, weapons already tested and available. Your comments are you opinion and so are mine no worries it is all discussions...in the end it is PAF to decide just like out of the blue Jordanian F-16s landed. As for the money we are also wondering out of no where..where did money come from for Jordanian F-16 procurement in such a short span of time, you see money can be made available if one really want to peruse we have money for all the politicians and their Empires, did you know ACM visited dar twice last year, they [Gov] has money they just don't want to hand it over.

By the way I already penned down in many posts; more F-16s are always a great choice but you need to satisfy JF-17 customers we don't have a marketing team yet but afsir sahib negotiates who knows nothing about a b c of marketing.

 

[The SC]

42 MK2-9 dating from 1986 are 30 year old planes, although upgraded,they should be inexpensive and a good addition to PAF.,
I am pretty sure they were very well maintained and that they do not have much "mileage". Hope Pakistan will get them for an affordable price, even if it was to have them as reserve fighter aircrafts.
F-16s at a good price to be MLUed is great and opportunities are many, This one for MK2-9 is a one time opportunity, that is where I see the difference. This is while Pakistan is waiting for modern platforms like the J-10C, J-31 and J-20.
The JF-17 block 2 fitted with an AESA radar and state of the art avionics, EW/ECM, FLIR and more, will certainly be a good vendor by itself on top of constituting the backbone of PAF.

 

[Munir]

I think the thinktank members (Gambit, Masta) are explaining it perfectly. You cannot just throw in a plane and expect to work better or perfect. We have seen it in every program. One needs flight hours and lots of improvements. And even then it takes lots of cash and hope to get it done. These are high performance jets and not just a well known design. The F22 had to fly back from Japan cause its supercomputer could not handle the time changes when flying over the globe... The Starfighter had issues with oxygen mask and the f35 just burned down kust like Pakfa.. Gripen and F22 had fbw issues. And just look at the number of crashed planes when we talk about F16 and Starfighter... You would be shocked. Maybe that explains that LCA has delays and delays. It is not that simple.

So surely we would like J20 or FC20 now. Is it really possible? nopes. These planes need some 5-10 years to mature. And the second hand f16's are well known and well tested planes. But do not think about just adding something without permission or throughly testing (for a few years)....

 

[gambit]

PAF has been using the F-16s for almost 3 decades with deadly effect in actual air to air combat against the soviets, having shot down ~ 20 jets and for carrying out precision strikes against the Taliban.

Thirty years of real combat experience is a cache in institutional memory that will be difficult to par, let alone supplement or replaced with a new platform. When a weapon is proven, even by other pilots, new pilots in the next generation will be hesitant to experiment with something new. The problem is common in every culture. Change is necessary and inevitable. Old ways and tactics can become ossified and when the country needed its warriors, they will fail in the face of new technology and newer tactics. On the other hand, we should not change simply for change's sake. American airmen are still reliving the bloody lessons, in the classrooms, of the gunless F-4s.

There are two ways to put a 'generation' into context. The physical generation, which is about 30-35 yrs when a person was born and grown into a contributor. Despite being adults, he and she are still learning new things and applying them to the current problems facing the country. The cultural generation is composed of their parents and grandparents who, despite can no longer bear children, are still influencing the country thru other means, such as their wisdom, which came from experience, and their political power. The cultural generation can be seen as a 70 yrs time span.

For countries like Pakistan that must import their defense, it is still difficult to find a contender for the proven F-16. That is the generation that now make up your senior (colonel and below) and flag (general) officers. They carried the successful fighter into their offices and thinking. Younger officers who are gung-ho for change must make their case. Most likely, they will not have the flight hours and combat experience. Clashes are inevitable. We went thru it and so will your Pakistani airmen.

 

[Talha Mateen]

I have gone through all of the comments and post; all that had made me realized that PAF will going to get 98+ Mirage-2000s from UAE, Qatar and Egypt in combine. So can anyone tell till when we may get all.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I have gone through all of the comments and post; all that had made me realized that PAF will going to get 98+ Mirage-2000s from UAE, Qatar and Egypt in combine. So can anyone tell till when we may get all.

Once UAE will get their F16 Block 60 , untill then we will have to play the wait game which brings us back to the table and ask why wait when we could have got 36 J10B in December 2014

 

[Talha Mateen]

Once UAE will get their F16 Block 60 , untill then we will have to play the wait game which brings us back to the table and ask why wait when we could have got 36 J10B in December 2014

Ok.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Get a few more F-16s and invest to mature JF-17. Wait to see what happens with Chinese 5th Gen projects.

I do have a suspicion that PAF would be forced to look at FC-20 / J-10B in a few years. Because we probably would not be able to afford more than a squadron or two of 5th gen. How long can we continue with F-16s? In 5 years we would be looking at J-10(B/C) just because we would start seeing future gaps.

However it may be, I do not see M2K in PAF colors.

Once UAE will get their F16 Block 60 , untill then we will have to play the wait game which brings us back to the table and ask why wait when we could have got 36 J10B in December 2014

More like Dec 2019. Nothing is set in stone.

I have gone through all of the comments and post; all that had made me realized that PAF will going to get 98+ Mirage-2000s from UAE, Qatar and Egypt in combine. So can anyone tell till when we may get all.

Nishan who will give that much money? We need hard cash for so many planes. Better wait and improve JF-17. Its a numbers plane and we may be able to get Western tech for it in a few years. Just wait.

 

[Bratva]

Thirty years of real combat experience is a cache in institutional memory that will be difficult to par, let alone supplement or replaced with a new platform. When a weapon is proven, even by other pilots, new pilots in the next generation will be hesitant to experiment with something new. The problem is common in every culture. Change is necessary and inevitable. Old ways and tactics can become ossified and when the country needed its warriors, they will fail in the face of new technology and newer tactics. On the other hand, we should not change simply for change's sake. American airmen are still reliving the bloody lessons, in the classrooms, of the gunless F-4s.

There are two ways to put a 'generation' into context. The physical generation, which is about 30-35 yrs when a person was born and grown into a contributor. Despite being adults, he and she are still learning new things and applying them to the current problems facing the country. The cultural generation is composed of their parents and grandparents who, despite can no longer bear children, are still influencing the country thru other means, such as their wisdom, which came from experience, and their political power. The cultural generation can be seen as a 70 yrs time span.

For countries like Pakistan that must import their defense, it is still difficult to find a contender for the proven F-16. That is the generation that now make up your senior (colonel and below) and flag (general) officers. They carried the successful fighter into their offices and thinking. Younger officers who are gung-ho for change must make their case. Most likely, they will not have the flight hours and combat experience. Clashes are inevitable. We went thru it and so will your Pakistani airmen.

In your days, did any pilot refused to fly plane which he considered hazardous to his health like that F-22 pilot ?

 

[Basel]

@gambit Thank you for responding very good post but you left Mirage 2009, please also compare it to both your mentioned air crafts. Also PAF may not be in hurry to get Anti Ship Capability for F-16 (but they want it) as JF-17s can fill that gap for now with other PN air assets, they want HARM missiles because in any conflicts they may have to use JF-17s to do SEAD/DEAD mission and they will need heavy escort to survive as IAF have plenty of resources on ground and in air to defend their assets, it will put pressure on PAF's assets, while if F-16 is used for that role it has much better chance to survive and will not need escort

 

[Basel]

How about the 60 odd Norwegian F-16 MLU-MV (= Block-52) with the Penguin Anti Ship Missiles?
The MLU package we opted for did integrate the capability to carry Harpoons which we already have, should we make the call to use our F-16s for Maritime attack role.

Penguin is short to medium range missile MK-3 version has 55+ kms range, it may suit Norway's needs but not Pakistan's as it will be a very tough job for PAF to get that close to IN ships with Barak missile with 70km range. So using JF-17 with 2 C-802A missiles & Mirage-Vs with a single Exocet missile will be much better than using F-16 with Penguin missile.

Penguin (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and if our F-16s already have capability to carry Harpoons then the question is do we have air launched block-II version available? and if yes will US allow us to use them on F-16s.

following link indicates that there were offered for Navy but does not confirm that they were delivered.

FMS Pakistan HARPOON Block II Anti-ship Missiles

 

[HAIDER]

How long we discuss this topic, UAE should dump these plane in the sea and end this story......Pakistan will not take these plane even UAE offer free.....Pakistan can't afford MLUs , plus opening another multimillion dollar venture for the maintenance of very few planes...............make no sense at all.......