Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[danger007]

Penguin is short to medium range missile MK-3 version has 55+ kms range, it may suit Norway's needs but not Pakistan's as it will be a very tough job for PAF to get that close to IN ships with Barak missile with 70km range. So using JF-17 with 2 C-802A missiles & Mirage-Vs with a single Exocet missile will be much better than using F-16 with Penguin missile.

Penguin (missile) - Wikiphttps://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-a-real-market-for-the-mirage-2000-9.128817/page-28#post-6010182edia, the free encyclopedia

and if our F-16s already have capability to carry Harpoons then the question is do we have air launched block-II version available? and if yes will US allow us to use them on F-16s.

following link indicates that there were offered for Navy but does not confirm that they were delivered.

FMS Pakistan HARPOON Block II Anti-ship Missiles

but the question is, does Mk-3 can track IN flotilla?? don't forget earth curvature?? does MK-3 can data link with AWACS??? even India got exocet missile...

MK-3 must come close to IN flotilla to track them... lets not forget only navy alone got far superior Mig-29K and LCA on order..(45 migs, 46 LCA)... i am excluding Harriers...

 

[Basel]

but the question is, does Mk-3 can track IN flotilla?? don't forget earth curvature?? does MK-3 can data link with AWACS??? even India got exocet missile...
MK-3 must come close to IN flotilla to track them... lets not forget only navy alone got far superior Mig-29K and LCA on order..(45 migs, 46 LCA)... i am excluding Harriers...

Kindly read the post carefully before responding.

 

[danger007]

Kindly read the post carefully before responding.

yes I did bro.. I am just asking you ... I want to know effectiveness of M3...

 

[Basel]

yes I did bro.. I am just asking you ... I want to know effectiveness of M3...

buddy I referred to MK-3 version of Penguin missile not Mirage-3.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think the thinktank members (Gambit, Masta) are explaining it perfectly. You cannot just throw in a plane and expect to work better or perfect. We have seen it in every program. One needs flight hours and lots of improvements. And even then it takes lots of cash and hope to get it done. These are high performance jets and not just a well known design. The F22 had to fly back from Japan cause its supercomputer could not handle the time changes when flying over the globe... The Starfighter had issues with oxygen mask and the f35 just burned down kust like Pakfa.. Gripen and F22 had fbw issues. And just look at the number of crashed planes when we talk about F16 and Starfighter... You would be shocked. Maybe that explains that LCA has delays and delays. It is not that simple.

So surely we would like J20 or FC20 now. Is it really possible? nopes. These planes need some 5-10 years to mature. And the second hand f16's are well known and well tested planes. But do not think about just adding something without permission or throughly testing (for a few years)....

Hi,

The problem in understanding by the younger geration is that they are growing up in an ever changing technology----. You change a laptop every other year---you get a new tablet and a new phone more often----for that reason---many a people canot understand the concept of a tested platfom---it is beyond their comprehension.

For them a proven and a tested weapons system is an obsolete system----becaue heir proven and tested system---their hi tech cell phone is being changed every year.

They have no clue what MILITARY GRADE equipment is & what it means---and what it takes to develop one.

@araz ---you don't get it by now that your buddy muradk failed to provide the nation with a much needed weapon----you still don't understand it that instead of 36 mirage 2k's we would have had 34 mirage2k's-----that is what that bribe would havamounted to.

He did not have the ability to look at the bigger picture----he was just burried deep in his honest world----and thus failed the nation.

For those who don't know-----one of our senior members on this board---was a sec defence or similar---he had the funds for the procurement of mirage 2000 in the early 90's. Benazir was in power---Zardari wanted double the bribe---from 20 million dollars to like 40 millon dolars --- something like that. Our sec def cancelled the purchase---because he says that he was honest ---- but he was totally clueless to the stategic importance an the aftershocks of a lack of a frontline aircraft.

If there are any jews / israelis on this forum who can tell what kind of extortionist prices they paid for their weapons before and after 1948---how many people they had to bribe.

The bottomline here is that instead of 36 fighter airaft of the M2K vintage----we would have had 34 fighter aircraft------.

The money got wasted some where else and the PAF that was desperately in search of a front line aircraft---was left holding and empty bag.

 

[Munir]

Hi,

The problem in understanding by the younger geration is that they are growing up in an ever changing technology----. You change a laptop every other year---you get a new tablet and a new phone more often----for that reason---many a people canot understand the concept of a tested platfom---it is beyond their comprehension.

For them a proven and a tested weapons system is an obsolete system----becaue heir proven and tested system---their hi tech cell phone is being changed every year.

They have no clue what MILITARY GRADE equipment is & what it means---and what it takes to develop one.

@araz ---you don't get it by now that your buddy muradk failed to provide the nation with a much needed weapon----you still don't understand it that instead of 36 mirage 2k's we would have had 34 mirage2k's-----that is what that bribe would havamounted to.

He did not have the ability to look at the bigger picture----he was just burried deep in his honest world----and thus failed the nation.

For those who don't know-----one of our senior members on this board---was a sec defence or similar---he had the funds for the procurement of mirage 2000 in the early 90's. Benazir was in power---Zardari wanted double the bribe---from 20 million dollars to like 40 millon dolars --- something like that. Our sec def cancelled the purchase---because he says that he was honest ---- but he was totally clueless to the stategic importance an the aftershocks of a lack of a frontline aircraft.

If there are any jews / israelis on this forum who can tell what kind of extortionist prices they paid for their weapons before and after 1948---how many people they had to bribe.

The bottomline here is that instead of 36 fighter airaft of the M2K vintage----we would have had 34 fighter aircraft------.

The money got wasted some where else and the PAF that was desperately in search of a front line aircraft---was left holding and empty bag.

Masta the story about M2K in the past is very different. Indeed the Mirage 2K was selected as replacement for the older Mirages. Just like Greece we would have both F16 and Mirage2K in our inventory. At that time the Benazir Bhutto government was in power. And her husband Zardari demanded more then a few millions per plane to get the deal done. Dassault accepted. Murad, being the program manager, did not. So Zardari abducted him and threatened him. He almost got killed after that when they put bad fuel in his plane. Do not malign Murad cause he did defend the nation for not throwing away billions direct in the pockets of Zardari. That was the reality... I know you do not like military but they are nothing compared to the so called elected politicians in Pakistan. Knowing this would you still blame the not rich and ill former pilot for stopping the deal? I give him the full credits. Unfortunately almost 200 million idiots accepted this criminals as there president and gave him a few billions this way. Serious. I mean, l do cannot believe how rotten the political arena is... Nawaz included...

 

[araz]

Hi,


@araz ---you don't get it by now that your buddy muradk failed to provide the nation with a much needed weapon----you still don't understand it that instead of 36 mirage 2k's we would have had 34 mirage2k's-----that is what that bribe would havamounted to.

He did not have the ability to look at the bigger picture----he was just burried deep in his honest world----and thus failed the nation.

For those who don't know-----one of our senior members on this board---was a sec defence or similar---he had the funds for the procurement of mirage 2000 in the early 90's. Benazir was in power---Zardari wanted double the bribe---from 20 million dollars to like 40 millon dolars --- something like that. Our sec def cancelled the purchase---because he says that he was honest ---- but he was totally clueless to the stategic importance an the aftershocks of a lack of a frontline aircraft.

If there are any jews / israelis on this forum who can tell what kind of extortionist prices they paid for their weapons before and after 1948---how many people they had to bribe.

The bottomline here is that instead of 36 fighter airaft of the M2K vintage----we would have had 34 fighter aircraft------.

The money got wasted some where else and the PAF that was desperately in search of a front line aircraft---was left holding and empty bag.

Mastan Khan
I will not defend Muradk. It is not my job. If you want to prosecute him email him and ask him to come on line and defend himself. The point is he did what he thought was the right thing at THAT time and you have retrospectoscope with which you have a lopsided(No disrespect but we dont know the permutations of an M2K buy in the 90 s either!!!) view of the situation. It wasnot just Muradk, but also Pshamim and Bossman and Xman who had their say. You persist in your arguments , I respect that but I dont have anything to add to what has already been said earlier. The selective hearing that you have also fails to realize that when PAF made the same enquiries 2-3 months down the line the offer had been withdrawn. In any case that is not the point in contention. The point in contention is the suitability of M2K9s NOW in todays context. This is what is being debated. I have laid down my cards on the table in relation to this debate and if there is anything there that you want to debate we can have a debate. But I am not going to enter into a debate about a past event that neither you nor I have any power to influence. If the past is the problem for you , then i am not the person to answer your querries.

 

[Munir]

Murad did not block it. He reported as it should be to the government which decided not to go ahead. I do not think a senior officer is the one that pulls the strings. Nowhere. I do like your comment Masta but in this case I disagree. I rather defend Murad then let his name be misused. Take my word, Zardari was the thief. He was the criminal and even badmaash who wanted others to be killed to get the corrupt money from Dassault. You can live with that? I do not think you would like this example.

You want to sell a car to a person. Some one is hired by the buyer to get the best car (and best deal!). This persons finds out you double the price (the buyer wants it) and he force the total costs on the workforce of the buyer (taxpayers of Pakistan). It is criminal. And yet you call the advisor ,who has the courage to write the reality on paper, a criminal. I guess you call car thieves hero's and police a bunch of criminals.

 

[Reichmarshal]

But in this case Mastan sahib is right....we should have gone ahead with the mirage deal...as we did go ahead with the agosta deal n their it was the same story n the same culprit. But that idiot mansoor got burned n took few others with him. Mostly innocent, who to this day r running from puller to post
But the tech leap for the navy was huge even to this day. Their is nothing in the Indian Ocean that matches it capability. Having the mirages n falcon would have sent shivers down the spine of india thinking bout it let alone doing something about it

But than again no use crying over spilt milk. We have opportunity now n a chance to get them basically for free

 

[MastanKhan]

Reichmarshall,

Thank you for your post. The simple truth is that major weapons purchases like frontline figher aircraft that can turn the balance of power in your favour---or submarines etc, must never be stopped.

In the larger picture---what is 2 or 3 aircaft less----not much---but the benefit the rest of them provide far exceeds the bribe.

Those who take the bribes can be persecuted later.

@araz--you started with the post prior to last----Ijust rspnded.

 

[araz]

Reichmarshall,

Thank you for your post. The simple truth is that major weapons purchases like frontline figher aircraft that can turn the balance of power in your favour---or submarines etc, must never be stopped.

In the larger picture---what is 2 or 3 aircaft less----not much---but the benefit the rest of them provide far exceeds the bribe.

Those who take the bribes can be persecuted later.

@araz--you started with the post prior to last----Ijust rspnded.

I know that my friend. I merely tried to tell another hotrod like you that the deal in todays terms means a big step back( at least in my view). You know he did not even bother to read the post. I am getting tired of this whole tooing and froing. Sometimes I think it is time to hang up my boots and let everyone else have a go at each others throat. But something keeps me going. Love for my countryand a hope of some day seeeing it prosper and be peaceful.
Frankly I am tired of the M2K9 debate. This is my last post on the topic.
Araz

 

[araz]

But in this case Mastan sahib is right....we should have gone ahead with the mirage deal...as we did go ahead with the agosta deal n their it was the same story n the same culprit. But that idiot mansoor got burned n took few others with him. Mostly innocent, who to this day r running from puller to post
But the tech leap for the navy was huge even to this day. Their is nothing in the Indian Ocean that matches it capability. Having the mirages n falcon would have sent shivers down the spine of india thinking bout it let alone doing something about it

But than again no use crying over spilt milk. We have opportunity now n a chance to get them basically for free

The deal could not go ahead as Benazir threw the file out of the window on to the street when Muradk took it to her and told him to not come back till he had made the changez that Zardari had asked him to make. Before he could even reach his office he had been relieved of the position of defence secretary and sent back to the AF. Within a few weeks of this the Benazir Government had been deposed. When enquirieswere next madea month or so down the line the offer was withdrawn by the french. Muradks onlyfault was that he did not change the figures which would have meant 10 million per plane went into Zardari s pocket. By the way he even then faced ridicule from his top brass for not having taken up the offer on grounds that everyone would have benefited from the deal( he used the words " hum sub milkar khatey" were used by his senior). He did not compromise on principles and this is what I respect. If it is a fault them may all of Pakistan have this fault.
Araz

 

[Reichmarshal]

The deal could not go ahead as Benazir threw the file out of the window on to the street when Muradk took it to her and told him to not come back till he had made the changez that Zardari had asked him to make. Before he could even reach his office he had been relieved of the position of defence secretary and sent back to the AF. Within a few weeks of this the Benazir Government had been deposed. When enquirieswere next madea month or so down the line the offer was withdrawn by the french. Muradks onlyfault was that he did not change the figures which would have meant 10 million per plane went into Zardari s pocket. By the way he even then faced ridicule from his top brass for not having taken up the offer on grounds that everyone would have benefited from the deal( he used the words " hum sub milkar khatey" were used by his senior). He did not compromise on principles and this is what I respect. If it is a fault them may all of Pakistan have this fault.
Araz

Sir jee I did not mean to offend u in any way. The Sec. Def. did the right thing n in the process saved a lot of asses as other wise the AF would have been in the same position as Navy under Mansoor ul haq. N that would have been down right embarrassing n demoralising for the AF. N as always lot of innocent officer (who were simply doing their job) would have been burnt to the ground.

But me n Mastan sahib r looking at the whole thing from another angle n ie imagine f 16 mlu/block52 providing top cover to a flight of mirage2k9. Now that's a sight to behold.

I hope u get the picture n are able to appreciate n understand our point of view
Regards

 

[araz]

Sir jee I did not mean to offend u in any way. The Sec. Def. did the right thing n in the process saved a lot of asses as other wise the AF would have been in the same position as Navy under Mansoor ul haq. N that would have been down right embarrassing n demoralising for the AF. N as always lot of innocent officer (who were simply doing their job) would have been burnt to the ground.

But me n Mastan sahib r looking at the whole thing from another angle n ie imagine f 16 mlu/block52 providing top cover to a flight of mirage2k9. Now that's a sight to behold.

I hope u get the picture n are able to appreciate n understand our point of view
Regards

You do know that PAF in early 2000s again looked at the M2K as a potential buy. This was armie de aire stock of 58 planes at app.20 million per unit with enough spares to last us a couple of decades. They dropped the idea and instead opted for development of JFT. Later on the bl. 52s became available and PAF opted for those instead. We had a long debate on the issue again with a lot of people proposing the M2k5s as a naval arm. The point I am making is PAF has had enough time to reevaluate its strategy and g9ne for JFT.

 

[airmarshal]

Even if PAF re evaluates the jets as is strongly suggested in this thread, would it make sense to buy these Mirages knowing fully well the enemy against whom these planes will be used has extensive knowledge of this platform?