Pak army general says India carrying out BAT attacks on Pakistani side of LoC

[PakSword]

See, I was telling everyone that it's India which is conducting the BAT attacks, not us.. Indians should be happy that their army is showing some bravery.. and they should also stop this nonsense

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

Do you know the difference between putting random words into sentences and putting random sentences into paragraphs, and rational thinking and writing?

What is an army supposed to do when it faces armed resistance, and people shooting at them, or assaulting them? What should it use? Harsh words?

What has the Israeli strategy in Lebanon got to do with anything under discussion here? Whom did we invade? What are you trying to prove?

I am responding to you because of my clinical fascination for your complete incoherence and your outbursts that make no sense whatsoever.

those 7 killed and 60 injured were not armed resistance.
In lebenon when israeli were fired on by some place, they would shell the whole village with heavy artillary and bring it to ground.
Thats what indian ary is doing.
To kill 2 armed people india had hit every civilian and now as a result 7 are dead and 60 injured. Thats whole village men. Just like israelis indians were never ashamed on their brutality and are not ready to accept that it was a war crime and crime against humanity by any law and morally.

 

[Areesh]

Please feel free to clutch at whatever you prefer. Nobody is preventing you from making the usual parade of your prejudices and calling it the truth.

I wont mind my troops beheading Indian soldiers but the thing is here the general simply blamed India for all the acts like beheading etc and bharatis are happy of that.

I just simply explained that.

Dont give a shit about the context. My reply was in response to someone saying its false. Read that.
Whether BAT exists or not is a matter for another debate.
Learn to know what is being discussed.

Pakistan never admitted any BAT existence. The Pakistani General simply shifted the blame on Indians.

And Indians are happy too. That is the context.

 

[Joe Shearer]

those 7 killed and 60 injured were not armed resistance.
In lebenon when israeli were fired on by some place, they would shell the whole village with heavy artillary and bring it to ground.

Try to bring some sense of proportion into what you say; don't just say the first thing that leaps to your lips. The Indian Army has not been shelling villages or population centres; the only shelling that takes place is from the other side of the LOC. If you like, that is murderous fire, that takes a toll of civilians.

Thats what indian ary is doing.

Not a single instance. You seem to be a Donald Trump follower, complete with Fake News.

To kill 2 armed people india had hit every civilian and now as a result 7 are dead and 60 injured. Thats whole village men.

I never cease to be amazed when fanboys - you being a prime example - put together unrelated facts and then jump up and down.

The action against the armed militants was separate; the firing on the crowd that tried to intervene was different. The crowd was warned, not once but several times. What precisely would you do, mastermind, strategic genius, if your armed detachment, in action, were to have somebody come in between and attack your detachment? Play the bagpipes for them?

Just like israelis indians were never ashamed on their brutality and are not ready to accept that it was a war crime and crime against humanity by any law and morally.

It was hardly brutality when people deliberately go into harm's way; you would not blame an artillery battery for casualties caused by people who wander into a red-flagged firing range. Please explain how firing on a crowd that, in spite of being warned, actively interferes is a war crime.

Do you seriously think that this will be allowed by even the most liberal society on earth?

I wont mind my troops beheading Indian soldiers but the thing is here the general simply blamed India for all the acts like beheading etc and bharatis are happy of that.

I just simply explained that.

Nothing that you do, say or write is ever simple; the day when you could put on an expression of wounded innocence, raise your hands and look puzzled are long gone.

Those Indians who were happy at this information are naive idiots. Those who have soberly examined the Pakistani General's statements and appreciated his candour have nothing to be ashamed of; nor does the General.

Pakistan never admitted any BAT existence. The Pakistani General simply shifted the blame on Indians.

And Indians are happy too. That is the context.

As I said, those Indians.............

I wont mind my troops beheading Indian soldiers but the thing is here the general simply blamed India for all the acts like beheading etc and bharatis are happy of that.

I just simply explained that.

Pakistan never admitted any BAT existence. The Pakistani General simply shifted the blame on Indians.

And Indians are happy too. That is the context.

It is clear what you are saying, and why you are saying it. Fair enough. If you were to abandon your habit of abusing people with whom you disagree, nobody - not a single Indian - would be able to combat you.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

Try to bring some sense of proportion into what you say; don't just say the first thing that leaps to your lips. The Indian Army has not been shelling villages or population centres; the only shelling that takes place is from the other side of the LOC. If you like, that is murderous fire, that takes a toll of civilians.

I am not taalking about LOC but IOK.
just few days ago, to kill three armed people, indian army shelled whole village using mortars. One of the freedom fighter killed was 14 year old.

 

[Hellfire]

........ doesn’t mean you know anything more than us Pakistanis.

I am sure you know better

Well, that's what we are saying that the BAT term is used by Indian army and being on PDF, I have always seen this term being used by Indian army multiple times to describe the killing of its soldiers as the doing of 'some' hypothetical BAT team of Pakistan army existence of which PA has always. But here Indians seem to take a u-turn. What a pathetic liars.

Still not clear. What confused you, the small team concept termed BAT as designated by SSG? Not understood. We don't have a BAT concept as my post earlier explained.

I appreciate most of what you write, although my own position differs, except that last paragraph. Whatever the situation, my personal links with my Kashmiri friends are too strong to permit me to adopt a bystander's position.

This in spite of the fact that several of them are professedly azadi supporters. We have argued about this among ourselves, and have decided to respect each others' positions and not debate it among ourselves. Two or three of them are my hosts in Srinagar, but of late, I have avoided staying with them so that I do not embarrass them among others of their persuasion.

Sir.

My views remain of what I sense as unfolding. What I have seen being implemented on ground over the past decade and joining the dots.

On one point, let me address your arguments about whether the primary responsibility is that of the central government or of the leaders and the body of the Kashmiri population.

While it is true that the average Kashmiri wants both big states out of Kashmir, it is also true that even azadi friends have pointed out that their views must forever be coloured by the duplicity of the babus and political netas in Delhi, and that unless the central government plays fair, the possibility of a favourable stand towards India is ruled out. As they point out, it is for Delhi to make the first move; they cannot, there is nothing that they can do while the daily humiliation continues and while ordinary people are in that rebellious frame of mind.

We have already seen that our counter-insurgency experts have been rejected by the politicians, in the same spirit in which they blew up the normal punitive raid across the border to harvest electoral benefits.

I also want to remind you of the paradox that your on-location friends will confirm: even those actively seeking government employment (and taking government employment, like the numerous youngsters in the CISF and CRPF I have seen) throw stones until the last moment when they have to join training as raw recruits. The militants are now singling them out for killing.

This is of course, what I aver to, when I mentioned that I used to call them militants and not terrorists. Now, I am not very sure that the distinction can be made so easily or readily, even by the local population. And the more the perception changes, the more the game is over for them and our neighbour.

What is amazing is the enthusiasm of the youngsters, as you correctly pointed out, in throwing stones today, and then joining the forces and being exemplary leaders and soldiers at it. A paradox which remains baffling to those who have not been on ground and interacted with the people.

We had to intervene many a times as the children would pelt stones at midnight or early morning hours at the houses in villages just because of sheer boredom and lack of opportunities in the valley. The Village Headmen would be in at all odd hours, asking us to act against the truant kids. But on what basis?

We could only counsel them and leave them be. As you and I know, it is a question of paying them Rs 1000 per day and the stones will be pelted on the militants/terrorists and the separatists day in and out It is, after all, a question of satisfaction of basic needs. The amount of kids who are caught in stone pelting and then released without a charge sheet being filed either by army or the security forces, is tremendous. The aim remains not to send them to either a Borstal House or prison, to ensure they have a future.

Anyways, we both remain aware of what is actually existing on ground.

still that makes indian army guilty if they use live ammunition to kill them. It was israeli strategy of occupation when it invaded lebenan. It proves u r occupying someone else land.

Nice sequence of logic. The eye can not see beyond horizon hence Earth must be flat too, irrespective of what science has comprehensively proved to be false. Carry on!

Cheers

 

[valkyr_96]

I am sure you know better

Still not clear. What confused you, the small team concept termed BAT as designated by SSG? Not understood. We don't have a BAT concept as my post earlier explained.

And now you are alluding the term to SSG....before BATs, the Indian newspapers routinely published Mujahideen Force because it was an easy word association with the Pakistan's use of Mujahideen referring to he armed resistance in Kashmir, when in fact it was the Mujahid Force with ample information was available on the Internet. The same attempt was made in this very thread calling it "recent" and "Mujahideen" (and switching from Pakistani newspapers to intelligence intercepts). You say that the Indians are ignorant (so are the Pakistanis no matter how much you can try to pin it on them) of the fact but it was the Indian writer who alluded to BATs in his interview and was shot back back by saying in a manner of speaking "no you do it". There has been more terminology added over time like "launch pads" for example. If you don't want your words to be taken as the Gospel truth then do not get aggravated. This 'semper est partum' was another liberty taken in the book, whats wrong with simple stating 'har dum taeyar' as is.

 

[war&peace]

Still not clear. What confused you, the small team concept termed BAT as designated by SSG? Not understood. We don't have a BAT concept as my post earlier explained.

It is not me who is confused rather you and your compatriots. Please use a mirror.

 

[Hellfire]

And now you are alluding the term to SSG....before BATs, the Indian newspapers routinely published Mujahideen Force because it was an easy word association with the Pakistan's use of Mujahideen referring to he armed resistance in Kashmir,

Incorrect. You have clearly mixed up the Mujahideen of the Soviet War with the Muajhid Force raised as a 'paramilitary' force by Pakistan.

Please do not confuse yourself and others by mixing the occurrence of Afghanis fighting in Kashmir in 1990s (with Mullah Omar admitting the same publicly in 1998) wherein the public media would oft use Mujahideen to refer to them as also the cadres of Hizbul Mujahideen. It was a term being used since 1980s during the Afghanistan Campaign by Soviets and has nothing to do with the force raised by Pakistan.

The bold is apt.

when in fact it was the Mujahid Force with ample information was available on the Internet.

Please understand the concept. A small unit concept as mentioned by me earlier, was not necessarily limited to SSG itself.

As you must surely be aware, the leadership of quite a few HM and Afghan Lashkars operating in Kashmir in 1990s was with SSG personnel. Hence, the concept of BAT was conceived by the SSG but not limited exclusively to their own personnel ever. Ilyas Kashmiri being a famous example.

You need to understand that the Pakistani Authorities, in order to create a plausible deniability, 'outsourced' the movement to JeI, a group which covers the whole of Indian Sub-Continent with varying degrees of fanaticism (or lack thereof). [You can refer to Taliban: The Power of Militant Islam in Afghanistan and Beyond by Ahmed Rashid for more)

The same attempt was made in this very thread calling it "recent" and "Mujahideen" (and switching from Pakistani newspapers to intelligence intercepts).

Not understood what you are trying to say here.

You say that the Indians are ignorant (so are the Pakistanis no matter how much you can try to pin it on them)

True in both cases. The former from lack of interest, the latter from perpetuation of a systematic 'structured' information system and propensity to deny alternative sources for information if it does not suit their pre-conceived notions.

....of the fact but it was the Indian writer who alluded to BATs in his interview and was shot back back by saying in a manner of speaking "no you do it".

So, does one expect any Army Commander in his right mind, to accept such occurrences? Officially, even Indians will say that Pakistanis do it and not us. So?

There has been more terminology added over time like "launch pads" for example. If you don't want your words to be taken as the Gospel truth then do not get aggravated. This 'semper est partum' was another liberty taken in the book, whats wrong with simple stating 'har dum taeyar' as is.

No idea what you are speaking of here. What is it that you intend to put across or convey? Do clarify please.

It is not me who is confused rather you and your compatriots. Please use a mirror.

As before:

Still not clear. What confused you, the small team concept termed BAT as designated by SSG? Not understood. We don't have a BAT concept as my post earlier explained.

Am still unclear, so yup, am confused as to what are you trying to say. Your digressing and introducing irrelevant sentences is confounding me further. How will looking in a mirror help me understand your view point? Still not clear.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I suggest you respect his professional service in that sector, and stop projecting your own total ignorance of the situation on him. He knows far more about that situation other than one other member, who no longer participates actively.

Indian will always gather like flies. Enough Indianisms from you.

How does he know about Pakistan army madrassas, was he educated in one?

While it is true that the average Kashmiri wants both big states out of Kashmir

This is not true. Kashmiris and Pakistanis are on the same page, we both want a UN plebiscite.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Indian will always gather like flies. Enough Indianisms from you.

How does he know about Pakistan army madrassas, was he educated in one?



This is not true. Kashmiris and Pakistanis are on the same page, we both want a UN plebiscite.

This what happens when you have 1.1 billion Indians and only 200 million Pakistanis in the world a larger propaganda machine to blast the Indian message

 

[valkyr_96]

Incorrect. You have clearly mixed up the Mujahideen of the Soviet War with the Muajhid Force raised as a 'paramilitary' force by Pakistan.

Please do not confuse yourself and others by mixing the occurrence of Afghanis fighting in Kashmir in 1990s (with Mullah Omar admitting the same publicly in 1998) wherein the public media would oft use Mujahideen to refer to them as also the cadres of Hizbul Mujahideen. It was a term being used since 1980s during the Afghanistan Campaign by Soviets and has nothing to do with the force raised by Pakistan.

Lol like I said why are you so aggravated when you yourself claim it is not the Gospel truth you can refer to the post 40 which you had quoted yourself I have never made the connection between the two but someone else did (sneakily) and he wasn't a Pakistani. Furthermore, you clearly are ignorant of the term Mujahideen which in itself exist irrespective of the Soviet war. Yes it has been used to describe the armed resistance in the Soviet war and is also used in Pakistan to describe the armed resistance in Kashmir regardless of its association with your assertions of Afghan Lashkars operating in Kashmir in 1990s (I can't believe you did not know this considering you are supposed to "know" so much). Sorry buddy no one is buying your bullshit I do not have any issues with actions taken in the past through small strike teams but calling them BATs (as part of defining/regularizing a strategy) is your and your medias concoction. Lets leave it at that, you have not provide facts on any matter except for some "khiyali pulao" read anecdotal and then go on ranting ".....latter from perpetuation of a systematic 'structured' information system and propensity to deny alternative sources for information if it does not suit their pre-conceived notions". This is the mirror in which you look at yourself because when you say "So, does one expect any Army Commander in his right mind, to accept such occurrences? Officially, even Indians will say that Pakistanis do it and not us. So?" what make you think you are any different.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Sorry buddy no one is buying your bullshit I do not have any issues with actions taken in the past through small strike teams but calling them BATs (as part of defining/regularizing a strategy) is your and your medias concoction. Lets leave it at that, you have not provide facts on any matter except for some "khiyali pulao" read anecdotal and then go on ranting ".....latter from perpetuation of a systematic 'structured' information system and propensity to deny alternative sources for information if it does not suit their pre-conceived notions".

Hit it right on the nail. No matter how many mountains of text is written to obfuscate the reality, lies will be lies.

There are no PA madrassas radicalizing Kashmiri youth, this is BS. There are no launch pads. No proof whatsoever of it. There are no Afghan Lashkars since 1990s in Kashmir.

Kashmir resistance is homegrown and Pakistan only gives statements in favor of it, nothing else.

This is all radical Hindutva BJP propaganda against Pakistan. Indian government is the biggest enemy of peace and liar in the whole region.

Indians, you are your own worst enemies.

 

[Hellfire]

Lol like I said why are you so aggravated when you yourself claim it is not the Gospel truth you can refer to the post 40 which you had quoted yourself I have never made the connection between the two but someone else did (sneakily) and he wasn't a Pakistani

Aggravated? Hardly. Am engaging you. Or would you rather that I ignore you?

Never understood the concept of Indian Sub-continent wherein people write 'why are you aggressive/aggravated' when one is engaged in a straight talk. Is it the spill over effect of watching too many Hollywood movies where a slightly apprehensive character will be asked to "calm down" by some stupid dimwit on duty as a police officer or hospital staff, and then the person says 'I am calm' and the other insists that the person needs to 'calm down' till it irritates the other so much, that he/she actually loses cool?

We see this as a norm in PDF too, although in a different context. People keep posting rot and when challenged, cry personal attack/religion being attacked

Furthermore, you clearly are ignorant of the term Mujahideen which in itself exist irrespective of the Soviet war.

So, by my limiting the scope of a discourse you have drawn an inference of ignorance? Pretty interesting.

I answered addressing a specific context to which you alluded. Now, one can go hundreds of years/centuries back and increase the context and the dimensions of the discussion till the original post is forgotten.

Is it so hard to stick to a context in an interaction? Let us revisit your claim at post #40

"I hope you are referring to the Mujahid Force Regiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahid_Force_Regiment. It is anything but recent and and your slip seems deliberate as has been seen in the Indian media and numerous post made by Indian members here before it morphed it so called Border Action Teams."

The contention made by you that Mujahid Force (a Paramilitary Force during the said period of origin of the BAT as a term) morphed into Border Action Team, was being rebutted. Then you went on to persist with the same as under:

" ........before BATs, the Indian newspapers routinely published Mujahideen Force because it was an easy word association with the Pakistan's use of Mujahideen referring to he armed resistance in Kashmir, when in fact it was the Mujahid Force with ample information was available on the Internet. ..... "

Pray, do tell me, what confounded you when I posted the under:


"Incorrect. You have clearly mixed up the Mujahideen of the Soviet War with the Muajhid Force raised as a 'paramilitary' force by Pakistan.

Please do not confuse yourself and others by mixing the occurrence of Afghanis fighting in Kashmir in 1990s (with Mullah Omar admitting the same publicly in 1998) wherein the public media would oft use Mujahideen to refer to them as also the cadres of Hizbul Mujahideen. It was a term being used since 1980s during the Afghanistan Campaign by Soviets and has nothing to do with the force raised by Pakistan.

The bold is apt."

The word Mujaheddin, as popular in the media lexicon at the time thanks to the wide publicity of the Soviet War, gained traction in media all over and was extrapolated into Indian media. I think that is easy to understand, wouldn't you agree?

Yes it has been used to describe the armed resistance in the Soviet war and is also used in Pakistan to describe the armed resistance in Kashmir regardless of its association with your assertions of Afghan Lashkars operating in Kashmir in 1990s (I can't believe you did not know this considering you are supposed to "know" so much). Sorry buddy no one is buying your bullshit I do not have any issues with actions taken in the past through small strike teams but calling them BATs (as part of defining/regularizing a strategy) is your and your medias concoction.

So, you are a Pakistani? If so, are you contending that the Mujahid Force morphed into BATs? And if not, being an Indian, are you contending that Indian media is creating the BAT as a term?

You seem at odds with your contentions

Lets leave it at that, you have not provide facts on any matter except for some "khiyali pulao" read anecdotal and then go on ranting ".....latter from perpetuation of a systematic 'structured' information system and propensity to deny alternative sources for information if it does not suit their pre-conceived notions". This is the mirror in which you look at yourself because when you say "So, does one expect any Army Commander in his right mind, to accept such occurrences? Officially, even Indians will say that Pakistanis do it and not us. So?" what make you think you are any different.

Again, seems a rant. What do you intend to convey, pray do clarify. If you have a rebuttal, please do post.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Apparently many white folks have said off the record that churning out fake Pakistan shaming books of one's ***-icle is a thriving business in India. And the gangus just eat that $h!t up.