PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[JamD]

Forgetting the geriatric ranting truck salesman who is running out of his preparation H - The problem with information sources for people formerly associated with the Pakistani defense circles such as @messiach is that information isn’t always delivered exactly in terms of where a project stands in terms of development nor is it delivered always through the right individual or context. I had highlighted this earlier in another thread as well which really is the exact same process as any researcher. Except the bar for a scholarly publications is different to say a defense forum. All of the following is something you are likely aware of but just repeating it for others.I am not going to disclose opsec compromising data to anyone no longer in the loop or provide complete details.

After all, the Mig-25 was exaggerated until it actually landed in Japan. The M-50 bounder was thought to be a short stubby aircraft until better pictures emerged and the theories surrounding the F-117 and Aurora are numerous.

I oft repeat the following examples because they are both very old and also examples of unbelievable ideas back in their times: back in 1997 the sanctioned and barely fourth gen airforce Pakistan was studying a neurological link simulator for the F-16 which would have bald pilots experiencing physical sensations such as G’s and attitude through stimulation of their nerves - it might have gotten laughing responses right?. at that time I spoke to the person involved with that and can verify the source - but since I am anonymous how do you verify me?

Nothing came of that project but it went to a few dollars spent. The same way a Mirage was modified to get a radar cross section below 1sqm but again - the source was the former head of Kamra who passed away recently. But, I am anonymous and no proof of that project exists at all.

Now if I heard from the brother of a F-16 pilot that they were practicing BVR shots when they were on the F-7PG I would take that with a bit of salt because a the brother doesn’t understand the subject matter as well and what context did the pilot tell his brother regarding it?
Turns out the pilot was referring to simulating the shots but that did not mean the F-7PG has a BVR weapon(but do have a monocle sight whose origins or use is a mystery).

Take it further to a Army Armored corps person mentioning something regarding the Pakistan Navy Supersonic AsHM program - that veracity of the source’s statements keeps getting more and more thin.
My uncle was in the Navy and in mid 2001 he was adamant that the JF-17 had already flown in Pakistan and he saw it himself. I kept arguing with him that it hasn’t since its out of chengdu but he kept saying he has seen it fly himself but wouldn’t mention where - what does one do with that statement? Regardless of his position and reputation besides the relationship I don’t think he was being accurate.

As a more personal example - In my role as PLM I came up with the idea of a low cost game chamger device - built the business case for it, presented it but my VP shot it down due to higher priority projects and lack of funds. Now as I was brainstorming it once while on a field visit with one of my account executives I mentioned the idea to him and he got excited even though I mentioned we are just thinking about it. A few months in one of his customers asked me where that project stood as they were interested even though it was shelved before a single penny was allocated.

So even if a concept was thought up(Ramjet powered AAM , suicide gyrocopter drone or otherwise) and shared with someone - it doesn’t necessarily mean it went beyond the drawing or even creating a folder on some person’s pc stage nor does it mean it doesn’t exist however we cannot verify it.
Definitely more formalized for an organization like the PAF but I still see the same dilution of information happening.

This post should be required reading for everyone that joins this forum - especially those that make a career out of rehashing forum rumors as youtube videos. But I guess they don't care for accuracy of information.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Let us hope it does not turn into a US Canada relationship!. We need to stop relying on others and making an effort to step out of our poverty and into financial stability so we can develop relations as equals.
A

Sure. Stuff like radar/missile performance can also be unveiled in due time. A lot of the stuff is opaque due to PLAAF secrecy right now.

 

[SQ8]

Project Crystal was acquisition of MPDRs was it not? Or did it encompass the whole automation of PakADGE or which Hughes & Siemens where a part of?

More on project Crystal:
https://quwa.org/2016/03/15/pakistans-c4isr-part-2-land-airborne-surveillance-systems/

 

[Rafi]

From what I've heard the new missile doesn't improve on the PL-15 too much in terms of range but is much lighter and compact. They could fit six of them into the J-20's main weaponsbay.

From what I have heard the new missile will be part of the next gen of AAW.

 

[ARMalik]

Messiach has a history of providing false and inaccurate rumors.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Pakistan confirms Chinese ‘Firebird’ fighter acquisition
By Usman Ansari
Monday, Jan 3

Four Chengdu J-10 fighter jets of China's Bayi flight demonstration team perform at a media preview of the Singapore Airshow on Feb. 9, 2020. (Mike Yeo/Staff)
ISLAMABAD — Pakistan has officially confirmed its long-speculated acquisition of the Chinese J-10C Firebird fighter jet, which is slated to arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day Parade.
Rasheed Ahmed, Pakistan’s interior minister, told the media last week the country acquired 25 aircraft. He linked them as a counter to India’s growing Rafale fleet.

He did not detail the value of the deal, and a source familiar with Pakistan’s military acquisition programs said he does not know if the fighters were “purchased or loaned to Pakistan’s Air Force.”
However, the source said, he is “more inclined to the latter, as [the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force] may have given a few units to the Pakistan Air Force to test on a delayed cost basis.”
Richard Fisher, a senior fellow at the International Assessment and Strategy Center, told Defense News there “is imagery suggesting that finished J-10Cs at the Chengdu factory are ready for near-immediate transfer,” referring to a manufacturing location in China.

Pakistan’s interest in the J-10 spans more than 10 years. The country was first interested in the FC-20 export variant of the single-seat J-10A. This was part of the wider Armed Forces Development Plan 2015, derailed by a lack of funding under the 2008-2013 Pakistan Peoples Party administration.
Pakistan’s interest in the FC-20 was partially driven by a need to complement its F-16, when further acquisition of that program appeared unlikely.
Pakistan also reportedly examined acquiring the Russian Su-35 Flanker-E, potentially to help better cover naval operations in the Arabian Sea.
When speculation first arose of a Pakistani J-10C purchase in early 2021, it was linked with one of the Pakistan Air Force squadrons based in Karachi.

China’s naval air arm, the PLANAF, operates the earlier J-10AH and J-10SH Firebird variants from shore as multirole aircraft. Though unconfirmed, Pakistan may operate its aircraft similarly.
Pakistan’s Firebirds are believed to be the J-10CE export variant of the latest J-10C, featuring an active electronically scanned array radar and long-range PL-15 air-to-air missiles. Twenty-five aircraft could equip two squadrons of 12 aircraft each.
Royal United Services Institute airspace analyst Justin Bronk said the J-10C will significantly boost Pakistan’s air power.
“The J-10C is a potent modern multirole light fighter, which represents a rough Chinese equivalent to a modern F-16 Block 60/70,″ he said.

However, he noted, it’s not quite on a par with the Rafale.
“The AESA radar and access to the long-ranged PL-15 air-to-air missile make it a potentially serious long-range threat to non-stealth aircraft, although it might still struggle as a counter to India’s Rafale at long ranges. The latter’s superior kinematic performance and access to the Meteor missile [provide] a decent counter to the PL-15,″ Bronk said. “The J-10C is also unlikely to be able to match the Rafale for electronic warfare capabilities.”

Pakistan confirms Chinese ‘Firebird’ fighter acquisition

Pakistan has officially confirmed its long-speculated acquisition of the Chinese J-10C “Firebird” fighter, which will arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day parade.

www.defensenews.com

It may not be on par with Rafale on certain aspects.

BUT at least China is trustworthy and a good ally.

The west are hypocrites and usually comes with conditions. Personally I hope Pakistan never buys military hardware from the west again.
Better to do joint-ventures with the Chinese on everything.

The Indians are wetting their dhotis, because they are getting a western product made by white people. lol. So naturally they think they have superior technology.

This is not necessarily true.

As China's aerospace technology mature, Chinese tech will eventually be on par with western technologies.

 

[TNT]

Son,

To hate someone---that person has to be somebody of some significance.


You are a nobody---. Tell me one thing---what is your claim of fame on sino def or on this forum---other than count when the aircraft came into production and some pictures of aircraft---.

You have no rudimentary knowledge of weapons procurement, defense related deals or technical know how related to engineering.

Why does anyone need to satisfy your curiosity----you are not a player---you are basically a nobody---SQ8 kisses your ar-se---for reasons better know to him.

Not a single post of yours has given out any knowledgeable answer about technicalities, the making of fighter aircraft or defense deal making---or anything about defense.

You have always insulted pakistan indirectly---always claiming pakistan has no funds---pakistan will not get anything---you have always degrade pakistan on sinodef forum and yet the @WebMaster is keeping you alive on this forum.

Name one projection for Pakistan that you had made and it has come true---.

The Type 054 is about to berth at karachi port---the subs are almost ready---the J10 on the way in.

As you stated that pakistan is a 'beggar nation ' on sino def and will get nothing---pakistan got everything that it wanted.

If you had any shame in you---you would not show your face on thiss forum---.

If pakistanis and SQ8 and @WebMaster had any character in them---you would not be on this forum.

My question to you again---what do you bring to this forum that you are here in your position SPYING for information.

Is the @WebMaster a spy as well---keeping a pakistani name but running this forum to find information?

Lolz the same questions can be asked from.u, who r u and what r ur credentials? Yeah sold alot of mehrans. Whats ur contribution to the forum, other than spreading dumb exaggerated fanboy stuff? He is a researcher and have published work. Typical Pakistani mentality where everyone thinks of himself as expert in every field.

 

[flameboard]

The sources seem questionable. I doubt Pakistan has much to gain from a J-10 acquisition.

 

[MultaniGuy]

The sources seem questionable. I doubt Pakistan has much to gain from a J-10 acquisition.

It has already been confirmed that Pakistan is getting J-10Cs.

You can google it on Google. Even a Forbes article has written about this topic.

 

[SQ8]

Lolz the same questions can be asked from.u, who r u and what r ur credentials? Yeah sold alot of mehrans. Whats ur contribution to the forum, other than spreading dumb exaggerated fanboy stuff? He is a researcher and have published work. Typical Pakistani mentality where everyone thinks of himself as expert in every field.

The only nation mentioned in the Quran to try and act this way were those that were punished later.

Ironically, the big fallback Bademian is trying when comparing himself to the prophet is that while he truly was a very learned man and provided knowledge or direction by Allah of events directly he was also freely pushing muslims to acquire knowledge from any and all sources.Why would he say so even if he was the penultimate human being?
Why seek consul and advice from companions on a variety of subjects?

My suggestion is to leave Bademian alone, no need to engage just as you wont engage him in real life. There are ignore buttons available in PDF - let him do whatever he wants to gain some glory and recognition which he desires more than anything while the rest of us can pick and choose quality content.

As far as the J-10 is concerned, lets focus on that and ignore content that you disagree with and cannot convince another of their PoV. We will get more information as the days unfold either way - and many times unlikely predictions do end up happening.

 

[Gripen9]

More on project Crystal:
https://quwa.org/2016/03/15/pakistans-c4isr-part-2-land-airborne-surveillance-systems/

Yeah I lived through it. My father was part of the MPDR evaluation, then commanded one of the CRC wings. I still have a "Project Crystal" coffee mug somewhere But usually when people talked about it, it referred more to the MPDR acquisition versus PakADGE upgrade including tipsies.

 

[Aesterix]

This post should be required reading for everyone that joins this forum - especially those that make a career out of rehashing forum rumors as youtube videos. But I guess they don't care for accuracy of information.

True. On YouTube, accuracy doesn't sell. Sensationalism does.
I have 11 years old YouTube channel, and I post verified info only. I get less than a thousand views per video.
New kids who post any rumour, get many thousands of views.
So public doesn't care. They just want some form of assurance that Pakistan has strong defence and growing. No matter from where that assurance comes from and even if false.

More on project Crystal:
https://quwa.org/2016/03/15/pakistans-c4isr-part-2-land-airborne-surveillance-systems/

Irrelevant, but PAF started working on the c4I system on 1977.
By now it's multi layered and quite efficient.
Then how Indians could come all the way to Balakot in Feb 2019?

 

[SQ8]

Yeah I lived through it. My father was part of the MPDR evaluation, then commanded one of the CRC wings. I still have a "Project Crystal" coffee mug somewhere But usually when people talked about it, it referred more to the MPDR acquisition versus PakADGE upgrade including tipsies.

Somewhere on that ACdre Shigri and others were involved. No idea where that story went from there.

 

[DocEinstein]

Forgetting the geriatric ranting truck salesman who is running out of his preparation H - The problem with information sources for people formerly associated with the Pakistani defense circles such as @messiach is that information isn’t always delivered exactly in terms of where a project stands in terms of development nor is it delivered always through the right individual or context. I had highlighted this earlier in another thread as well which really is the exact same process as any researcher. Except the bar for a scholarly publications is different to say a defense forum. All of the following is something you are likely aware of but just repeating it for others.I am not going to disclose opsec compromising data to anyone no longer in the loop or provide complete details.

After all, the Mig-25 was exaggerated until it actually landed in Japan. The M-50 bounder was thought to be a short stubby aircraft until better pictures emerged and the theories surrounding the F-117 and Aurora are numerous.

I oft repeat the following examples because they are both very old and also examples of unbelievable ideas back in their times: back in 1997 the sanctioned and barely fourth gen airforce Pakistan was studying a neurological link simulator for the F-16 which would have bald pilots experiencing physical sensations such as G’s and attitude through stimulation of their nerves - it might have gotten laughing responses right?. at that time I spoke to the person involved with that and can verify the source - but since I am anonymous how do you verify me?

Nothing came of that project but it went to a few dollars spent. The same way a Mirage was modified to get a radar cross section below 1sqm but again - the source was the former head of Kamra who passed away recently. But, I am anonymous and no proof of that project exists at all.

Now if I heard from the brother of a F-16 pilot that they were practicing BVR shots when they were on the F-7PG I would take that with a bit of salt because a the brother doesn’t understand the subject matter as well and what context did the pilot tell his brother regarding it?
Turns out the pilot was referring to simulating the shots but that did not mean the F-7PG has a BVR weapon(but do have a monocle sight whose origins or use is a mystery).

Take it further to a Army Armored corps person mentioning something regarding the Pakistan Navy Supersonic AsHM program - that veracity of the source’s statements keeps getting more and more thin.
My uncle was in the Navy and in mid 2001 he was adamant that the JF-17 had already flown in Pakistan and he saw it himself. I kept arguing with him that it hasn’t since its out of chengdu but he kept saying he has seen it fly himself but wouldn’t mention where - what does one do with that statement? Regardless of his position and reputation besides the relationship I don’t think he was being accurate.

As a more personal example - In my role as PLM I came up with the idea of a low cost game chamger device - built the business case for it, presented it but my VP shot it down due to higher priority projects and lack of funds. Now as I was brainstorming it once while on a field visit with one of my account executives I mentioned the idea to him and he got excited even though I mentioned we are just thinking about it. A few months in one of his customers asked me where that project stood as they were interested even though it was shelved before a single penny was allocated.

So even if a concept was thought up(Ramjet powered AAM , suicide gyrocopter drone or otherwise) and shared with someone - it doesn’t necessarily mean it went beyond the drawing or even creating a folder on some person’s pc stage nor does it mean it doesn’t exist however we cannot verify it.
Definitely more formalized for an organization like the PAF but I still see the same dilution of information happening.

This is the reason I visit PDF to read a rare few meaningful posts such as this.

 

[SQ8]

True. On YouTube, accuracy doesn't sell. Sensationalism does.
I have 11 years old YouTube channel, and I post verified info only. I get less than a thousand views per video.
New kids who post any rumour, get many thousands of views.
So public doesn't care. They just want some form of assurance that Pakistan has strong defence and growing. No matter from where that assurance comes from and even if false.

Irrelevant, but PAF started working on the c4I system on 1977.
By now it's multi layered and quite efficient.
Then how Indians could come all the way to Balakot in Feb 2019?

Not sure what irrelevance you refer to with what subject but your first paragraph talks on rumors and then you go ahead and make a statement worthy of the said 11 year old's youtube channel.
Please go through the multiples and multiples of accounts by both publicly and known individuals on where the Indians came and how far they went along with the geographic distance of Balakot from the border.
Here's a hint - its less than 60km and an aircraft travelling at 380 knots covers 10km in 1 minute. So you could be flying 30 seconds distracted from launching your guided weapon and have breached another countries airspace some 5km without even realizing it.
However, Balakot is very irrelevant to this thread in general.