Open Debate l Ex-UAE Mirage 2000-9s for PAF, aye or nay ?

[MilSpec]

You people seriously lose the ability to comprehend? What we have been trying to say is that India cannot influence the french without getting shot in the foot itself. France, if they want, can sell equipment to BOTH India and Pakistan. Just like they have done in the past. The only leverage India has against is that they will cancel or reduce the deal. Well, do you really think India would do that? Because then you are devoid of a MRCA and puts your M2k upgrades in jeopardy. While France needs those billions and in no way is it willing to let that go away in favor of lesser, hundred of millions, India needs the planes too. What's the alternative? Typhoon? India would have to redo the whole process again, setting back by 2-3 years. If France sells to both India and Pakistan, France comes out on top, since they can use one situation to the advantage of the other. Either it's you and me getting nothing, or you and me getting what we want. M2Ks would be expensive even if they come second hand. Pakistan already has no restrictions on the purchase of F-16 BLK52s, so if it gets the cash, it can order or buy used F-16s and MLU them. The point is, PAF will get whatever it wants to maintain the balance.

Comprehension may in doubt at the other end, where the question posed seemed to suggest the inability of IAF to get additional MKI's, to which my surprised remark was about the seriousness of your query, especially when the aircraft is made in house, and Irkut is more that happy to upgrade and provide more when needed.

Next is about acquiring Uae's Mirage 2000-05, where some members here seem to suggest that because of Mirage 3's experience, M2K would be a an efficient option for PAF, as it shares the common name, but fail to realize that other than commonality in the 6 alphabets, nothing else is common.

@Aeronaut suggests converting the Mirage 3 Plant to support M2K, if procured. The process would be just as complex as converting the mirage 3 plant to support F16, so from serviceability and maintainability it bring no whatsoever advantage.

Another popular notion suggests that due to experience on the mirage 3 delta, transition into the mirage 2K would be easier, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Comparatively the flight envelope, airframe dynamics, stick characteristics all are completely different in the mirage2K.

Finally the Indian Air force part. Witholding Mirage 2K even if it might be a ridiculous option for pakistan, is in the interest of india. So what are the options, if it is left to the french, IAF should either block the deal, and at best pay more than PAF to get the aircrafts for themselves. If dassault is interested it selling the excess aircraft's, which will bring additional revenue, it shouldn't really care if it sells it to india or to mexico. But intentionally antagonizing it's biggest foreign customer and a partner state would be a wrong business and political decision for both france and dassault breguet, With Rafale procurement and lifecycle management, Mirage 2K upgrade, mica, Meteor, future possibility of Rafale naval, Joint role in Aura, Airbus 330 MRTT Strato-Tanker, the business potential for france in India is immense, so the question arises, would the leadership in france along with dassault like to risk business potential for zero gain by selling the aircrafts to PAF?

As far as PAF is concerned, it would benefit much more if it sticks with additional f16's.

What is the 'evidence' that the French refused to sell avionics due to India?

Assuming that India did not influence any aspect of avionics from france, what would be reason for not integrating the avionics then. Because it seemed like PAF was interested.

Did france refuse to sell avionics to PAF as political decision?
Was it due to fear of proliferation of it's technology to China by pakistan?
was french avionics deemed sub standard, and thus chinese ones selected?
Was PAF not capable of paying for french avionics?

Any way you spin it, it won't look good.

 

[Donatello]

Man are living in fools heaven?? do you know French refuse to provide already discussed avionics package of JF-17s due to Indian MMRCA tender and they will continue to do that as India have tried to pursue every weapons seller not to sell weapons to Pakistan.



French will not sell anything if India keep doing good business with them as India have successfully blocked JF-17s avionics deal previously.



Not latest version of F-16s, but Pakistani Block-50/52s even today they have weapons which F-16s can't carry, and Chinese AESA is also getting ready, which will make it most potent plane in PAF.

PAF should have asked govt. to pursue KSA to broker / finance deal with their Salex for advance AESA with TOT for JF-17s.

France refused the avionics because they wanted Indian to select Rafale. Now, since India has selected Rafale, it doesn't have much options to go to, other than procure Typhoon.

 

[ejaz007]

No,Others did good too.

I do not wish to go into a lengthy discussion. If you think they performed well then good for you. You might have different parameters for judging what is good and what is bad performance.

 

[Donatello]

I think it is best to rest this topic, as we have no concrete evidence that such a deal is in the making or confirmed. Even if PAF goes ahead, they would want to keep it under wraps, just like the Jordanian F-16s

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

You can have them too---.

if somehow indians ditch rafale in favour of eft or anyother else then would french sell rafale to us ?

 

[araz]

if somehow indians ditch rafale in favour of eft or anyother else then would french sell rafale to us ?

Arey bhai.
Nangey bhokay khairati mode may yeh kis dawa ka asar hai.
Bhai we are true to the play of taleem e balighaan. There was a song in it which after 60 yrs still holds true.It goes:
" Cheen o arab hamara Hindustan hamara.
Rehne ko ghar nahin hai sara jahan hamara.
Dr saheb agar apney par nahin to mujh borhey aadmi per be reham kar lo yaar.
Araz

 

[Basel]

@Aeronaut Fennec is produced by Airbus Helicopters which is a joint venture of many nations not just French company.

Who We Are - Airbus Helicopters
.
Eurocopter Fennec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kompromat]

@Aeronaut Fennec is produced by Airbus Helicopters which is a joint venture of many nations not just French company.

Who We Are - Airbus Helicopters
.
Eurocopter Fennec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, but they are coming from France because they were built there. Thats just how the global arms market works, sell both sides!

 

[MastanKhan]

if somehow indians ditch rafale in favour of eft or anyother else then would french sell rafale to us ?

Hi,

Money aside---yes they will.

 

[Abingdonboy]

IAF is not placing a Rafale order anytime soon

And yet all the evidence states the exact opposite:

Livefist: Dassault's Rafale Tech Transfer Offer Compliant: Indian MoD

MMRCA deal: Rafale negotiations expected to be wrapped up in 3 months - The Times of India



India undertakes final negotiations for mega fighter deal amid hectic lobbying - The Times of India


India closes in on $20 billion Rafale deal despite last-ditch bids by US, UK, Germany - Economic Times


IAF plans early induction of Rafale combat jet


3-4 months for talks to be completed then another 1-2 for GoI clearances. Deal will be signed THIS year- is that not "anytime soon"??

if they do, it would be for around 80 Rafales.

Utter, utter nonsense. Pray tell me what else you are predicting with your crystal ball? One erroneous reports as stated this 80 unit figure and no one else, it is utter baloney.

I used to have a lot of respect for you sir but of late your posts towards anything involving India have become malicious, false and in come cases complete fabrications.

For someone like you to talk in absolutes such as the deal won't be signed soon or that the deal will only be for 80 units is a dear shame.

Your comments now invoke anger and invite trolling.

 

[araz]

I think Qatar should fund PAF with their 12 M-2000s for Free along with money to buy 68+ UAE and 18+ Egyptian Mirages as well.

Nishan alert!! Nishan alert!!!Mods please take notice.
Araz

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Sorry to open an old thread but i've been thinking:

As for UAE Mirage 2000s, I don't think they'd give them to us in the wake of our refusal to provide troops for the Yemen imbroglio. In fact they might give them to the enemy indians to "teach us a lesson" as I'm sure india would be interested to induct more of those in the medium run. Or they could at least make "the offer" in order to push us - if the Yemen nonsense perpetually worsens (wont change our foreign policy)

Having said that, induction of yet another weapons system into our inventory is not a good thing as it increases logistics problems MANIFOLD.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Sorry to open an old thread but i've been thinking:

As for UAE Mirage 2000s, I don't think they'd give them to us in the wake of our refusal to provide troops for the Yemen imbroglio. In fact they might give them to the enemy indians to "teach us a lesson" as I'm sure india would be interested to induct more of those in the medium run. Or they could at least make "the offer" in order to push us - if the Yemen nonsense perpetually worsens (wont change our foreign policy)

Having said that, induction of yet another weapons system into our inventory is not a good thing as it increases logistics problems MANIFOLD.

Because those arabs are crypto jews with their heads bend towards Jew lobby.

 

[Sine Nomine]

As for UAE Mirage 2000s, I don't think they'd give them to us in the wake of our refusal to provide troops for the Yemen imbroglio. In fact they might give them to the enemy indians to "teach us a lesson"

We can also teach lesson to them because ISIS is at gates,one bomb blast by them is UAE and all is gone.For Yemen sir,Yemenis whether shia or sunnis hold Pakistan with esteem and respect,you know it's very hard to earn,better to stick with none just with our own betterment.

 

[Zarvan]

Hello ladies and gents.

Currently we have 63 F_16s in total with the old block 15s being upgraded to Block-52 standards.

AEW&C = SAAB Erieye

A total of 250 JF-17 Thunders will be bought by the PAF in 3 blocks.

50 odd F-7PGs are likely to see service beyond 2020, mainly for OCU and not for frontline roles.

AEW&C = ZDK-3 Karakoram Eagle

If we exclude the F-7PGs which would be outdated by 2020 as per our threat analysis, we are left with 250 thunders + 65 F-16s (two more may join soon) = 315 Multirole Fighter jets.

315 Advance jets with force multipliers like AEW&C and IFR, Networked air defense is a 'good deterence' against our principle threat.

Since the FC-20 MMRCA's future is now bleak due to the economic mismanagment of the PPP govt, would it make sense for PAF to buy the 65 odd EX-UAE Mirage-2000-9s along with its weapons packag, as a 'stopgap' till 2025, when we might be able to procure or operationalize a 5th gen platform?

Those dash 9's are still very advanced, which would be able to datalink with our Eri Eyes, F-16s, JF-17s and other assets.

Please discuss.

* Strengths of such a procurement.
* Weaknesses of such a procurement
* Difficulties in creating the ground infrastructure.
* Maintainance
* Spareparts
* Refurbishment
* Operational effectivene* Operational effectivene* Operational effectivene* Operational effectiveness/role
* Price we should offer for them
* Pilot training
* Weapons package
* Any upgrades
* Cost to benefit ratio
___________________

Please keep it civil.

Aero.

If they come they should be for Navy and first upgraded to most latest version other wise no need