JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[The Eagle]

The cost of upgrade to BLK III is a big issue...

As far as I see, there's confusion in regard to upgrade for Block-II at par to Block-III or just a Radar upgrade.

1. An argument about full upgrade of Block-II at par of Thunder Block-III like in all potentials, capabilities, tech etc and,
   
   
2. The argument of an AESA Radar only in Block-II which is not an upgrade equal to Block-III. An AESA upgrade in Block-II doesn't mean that all the birds will be at par with Block-III in all the capabilities which has newer tech to compete with existing threats.

So,

• Whether Block-II air frame can house an AESA?
  • Yes, the air cooled version as shown in above pics so also being tested is the solution for Block-II birds. During Zuhai Air Show 2018, the same Radar was proposed solely for Thunder Block-II fleet in mind.

• Whether PAF is going for such Radar upgrade or not?
  • Well, we have no confirmation except that only one Thunder Block-II was tested in China.

• Whether all the existing fleet needs a Radar upgrade such as AESA?
  • Still not sure as it depends on PAF doctrine as well as the cost effectiveness or even there is a need keeping in view the Air Frame Life. May be some of the Block-II birds per given role will be installed with proposed AESA.

• Why not to come with more Block-IIIs instead of upgrading existing fleet with AESA Radar as it will offer more than enough capability?
  • Well, to me that sounds interesting as well as a must but depends as how we utilize Block-II in existing configuration given the cost & then being supplemented by planned numbers of Block-III. A whole fleet of new generation under current economic situation, may remain a pipe dream and will cost us more.

• Is that plausible if we roll out more Block-IIIs instead of fully upgrading Block-II?
  • Well, if we are talking about a total upgrade including everything that Block-III has; only logical way forward is to go for newer Block-IIIs.

• Why more Block-IIIs & not to go for full upgrade of existing fleet of Thunder?
  • In my opinion firstly the Block-II Air Frame without internal changes cannot be upgraded fully to Block-III. Here I can be wrong but my observation is based upon somewhat we came to know of possible installations within the frame & planned AESA size. Secondly, why to waste money & time which will cost the same way for a new Block-III. Conclusively, I don't see that plausible.

In my observation, PAF will fly existing fleet with a mix of different configuration to fulfill respective duties/tasks. Similarly, IFR probe is not installed on the all birds despite the fact that it can be done but IFR will be done for the birds only with the task where it is needed while the rest of Fleet has other solutions per assigned roles. PAF will keep mix fleet in different configuration for dedicated roles at most. However, capabilities of both generations will not be comprised for their roles and these birds whether mix of AESA and non AESA or all with AESA of different class in different blocks; PAF is happy with the same as per doctrine.

Since we don't have much in regard to JF-17 III updates and yet we have above types of points in mind for existing fleet; I thought to have some time to share such observations of my own for the interest of readers and the carry on discussion.

Regards,

 

[araz]

As far as I see, there's confusion in regard to upgrade for Block-II at par to Block-III or just a Radar upgrade.

1. An argument about full upgrade of Block-II at par of Thunder Block-III like in all potentials, capabilities, tech etc and,
   
   
2. The argument of an AESA Radar only in Block-II which is not an upgrade equal to Block-III. An AESA upgrade in Block-II doesn't mean that all the birds will be at par with Block-III in all the capabilities which has newer tech to compete with existing threats.

So,

• Whether Block-II air frame can house an AESA?
  • Yes, the air cooled version as shown in above pics so also being tested is the solution for Block-II birds. During Zuhai Air Show 2018, the same Radar was proposed solely for Thunder Block-II fleet in mind.

• Whether PAF is going for such Radar upgrade or not?
  • Well, we have no confirmation except that only one Thunder Block-II was tested in China.

• Whether all the existing fleet needs a Radar upgrade such as AESA?
  • Still not sure as it depends on PAF doctrine as well as the cost effectiveness or even there is a need keeping in view the Air Frame Life. May be some of the Block-II birds per given role will be installed with proposed AESA.

• Why not to come with more Block-IIIs instead of upgrading existing fleet with AESA Radar as it will offer more than enough capability?
  • Well, to me that sounds interesting as well as a must but depends as how we utilize Block-II in existing configuration given the cost & then being supplemented by planned numbers of Block-III. A whole fleet of new generation under current economic situation, may remain a pipe dream and will cost us more.

• Is that plausible if we roll out more Block-IIIs instead of fully upgrading Block-II?
  • Well, if we are talking about a total upgrade including everything that Block-III has; only logical way forward is to go for newer Block-IIIs.

• Why more Block-IIIs & not to go for full upgrade of existing fleet of Thunder?
  • In my opinion firstly the Block-II Air Frame without internal changes cannot be upgraded fully to Block-III. Here I can be wrong but my observation is based upon somewhat we came to know of possible installations within the frame & planned AESA size. Secondly, why to waste money & time which will cost the same way for a new Block-III. Conclusively, I don't see that plausible.

In my observation, PAF will fly existing fleet with a mix of different configuration to fulfill respective duties/tasks. Similarly, IFR probe is not installed on the all birds despite the fact that it can be done but IFR will be done for the birds only with the task where it is needed while the rest of Fleet has other solutions per assigned roles. PAF will keep mix fleet in different configuration for dedicated roles at most. However, capabilities of both generations will not be comprised for their roles and these birds whether mix of AESA and non AESA or all with AESA of different class in different blocks; PAF is happy with the same as per doctrine.

Since we don't have much in regard to JF-17 III updates and yet we have above types of points in mind for existing fleet; I thought to have some time to share such observations of my own for the interest of readers and the carry on discussion.

Regards,

Thank you for a really comprehensive post. You have brought together the points which have puzzled most of us. We need to examine all of these critically in view of our finances, needs, the role of things like jammers and EW and netcentricity as well as PAF practices in the past.
A

 

[Trango Towers]

Thank you for a really comprehensive post. You have rought together the points which have puzzled most of us. We need to examine all of these critically in view of our finances, needs, the role of things like jammers and AWand netcentricity as well as PAF practices in the past.
A

Nothing is puzzling.
People are just guessing no reason and creating confusion

 

[FuturePAF]

Will the Block 3 JF-17 implement an upgrade to the MAWs? Going for an export version of the DASS from the J-20? With all the work going into the AESA and sensor fusion, adding a better DAS like system could allow the plane to see enemy fighters or missiles (air to air and surface to air) sooner allowing the plane to be more survivable.

Was something like this or a more standard single point IRST the system being considered for the Block 3 pending PAF funding to CAC?

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...ase-system-integrated-onto-elite-chinese-jets

 

[Cookie Monster]

If the cost of upgrade to BLK III is close to that of producing a new BLK III, what is your choice?

If the cost of upgrading is close to a new block III then it's probably better to sell older blocks to countries like Nigeria at a slightly discounted price...use that money plus the "upgrade money" to build new Block IIIs.

 

[The Raven]

Will the Block 3 JF-17 implement an upgrade to the MAWs? Going for an export version of the DASS from the J-20? With all the work going into the AESA and sensor fusion, adding a better DAS like system could allow the plane to see enemy fighters or missiles (air to air and surface to air) sooner allowing the plane to be more survivable.

Was something like this or a more standard single point IRST the system being considered for the Block 3 pending PAF funding to CAC?

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...ase-system-integrated-onto-elite-chinese-jets

Yes, the MAWS have been upgraded from UV based detectors to now IR based including the addition of forward looking MAWS, one on each side of the intake, as well as relocating the rear aspect MAWS further up the tail from the base spine.

 

[HRK]

There is another picture showing the Bird with engineers around

 

[M.AsfandYar]

As far as I see, there's confusion in regard to upgrade for Block-II at par to Block-III or just a Radar upgrade.

1. An argument about full upgrade of Block-II at par of Thunder Block-III like in all potentials, capabilities, tech etc and,
   
   
2. The argument of an AESA Radar only in Block-II which is not an upgrade equal to Block-III. An AESA upgrade in Block-II doesn't mean that all the birds will be at par with Block-III in all the capabilities which has newer tech to compete with existing threats.

So,

• Whether Block-II air frame can house an AESA?
  • Yes, the air cooled version as shown in above pics so also being tested is the solution for Block-II birds. During Zuhai Air Show 2018, the same Radar was proposed solely for Thunder Block-II fleet in mind.

• Whether PAF is going for such Radar upgrade or not?
  • Well, we have no confirmation except that only one Thunder Block-II was tested in China.

• Whether all the existing fleet needs a Radar upgrade such as AESA?
  • Still not sure as it depends on PAF doctrine as well as the cost effectiveness or even there is a need keeping in view the Air Frame Life. May be some of the Block-II birds per given role will be installed with proposed AESA.

• Why not to come with more Block-IIIs instead of upgrading existing fleet with AESA Radar as it will offer more than enough capability?
  • Well, to me that sounds interesting as well as a must but depends as how we utilize Block-II in existing configuration given the cost & then being supplemented by planned numbers of Block-III. A whole fleet of new generation under current economic situation, may remain a pipe dream and will cost us more.

• Is that plausible if we roll out more Block-IIIs instead of fully upgrading Block-II?
  • Well, if we are talking about a total upgrade including everything that Block-III has; only logical way forward is to go for newer Block-IIIs.

• Why more Block-IIIs & not to go for full upgrade of existing fleet of Thunder?
  • In my opinion firstly the Block-II Air Frame without internal changes cannot be upgraded fully to Block-III. Here I can be wrong but my observation is based upon somewhat we came to know of possible installations within the frame & planned AESA size. Secondly, why to waste money & time which will cost the same way for a new Block-III. Conclusively, I don't see that plausible.

In my observation, PAF will fly existing fleet with a mix of different configuration to fulfill respective duties/tasks. Similarly, IFR probe is not installed on the all birds despite the fact that it can be done but IFR will be done for the birds only with the task where it is needed while the rest of Fleet has other solutions per assigned roles. PAF will keep mix fleet in different configuration for dedicated roles at most. However, capabilities of both generations will not be comprised for their roles and these birds whether mix of AESA and non AESA or all with AESA of different class in different blocks; PAF is happy with the same as per doctrine.

Since we don't have much in regard to JF-17 III updates and yet we have above types of points in mind for existing fleet; I thought to have some time to share such observations of my own for the interest of readers and the carry on discussion.

Regards,

You missed the FCS of BLK III. Thats going to be a major pain in upgrading B2 to B3.

 

[The Eagle]

View attachment 652579 View attachment 652580

Oh beautiful. Thanks bro.

You missed the FCS of BLK III. Thats going to be a major pain in upgrading B2 to B3.

Thank you for a really comprehensive post. You have brought together the points which have puzzled most of us. We need to examine all of these critically in view of our finances, needs, the role of things like jammers and EW and netcentricity as well as PAF practices in the past.
A

Yes Sir. I mean there are a lot of factors to consider before we merely ask for a simple looking upgrade.

 

[serenity]

I thought block 3 uses NRIET's KLJ-7A but the image shows AVIC's LKF601E. Which AESA radar is going to be used?

Sorry I missed the block 2. So AVIC's air cooled LKF601E will be for block 2 upgrades while block 3 gets NRIET's new AESA?

 

[The Eagle]

Sorry I missed the block 2. So AVIC's air cooled LKF601E will be for block 2 upgrades while block 3 gets NRIET's new AESA?

Both are best possible candidates but nothing confirm as of yet specifically for AESA.

 

[Dazzler]

Both are best possible candidates but nothing confirm as of yet specifically for AESA.

Klj-7A has been chosen for blk-3.

 

[Dil Pakistan]

How about if we integrate new Chinese drones with Block-III in the "Loyal Wingman" concept?

This will allow better SEAD operations from Block-III

 

[princefaisal]

I think Aesa radar, HMDS, PL-10, PL-15 and upgraded EW will be good enough for integration in some JF-17 block IIs.

 

[Armchair]

They were jammed to an extent that they ran away from the fight. To add insult to injury, they were jammed by JF-17s.

Partially correct - The M2ks ran because they saw a lost fight because of a lack of training to deal with outnumbered situations.

The JF-17s were used to Jam ADGE assets on the ground.

FYI @denel this is what I had been saying all along:


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-emerged-as-the-star-of-swift-retort.677399/