Islamic Eschatology - Strategic importance!

[I.R.A]

The above Ayat is about Hazrat Muhammad SAW, how does this means that there is no other messiah?

People were informed by the divine books who is to come next. Jews, Christians both of them knew from their books about coming of Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon him, but very few accepted. So the Messiah Jews were waiting for happen to be Messenger Ibn e Mariam and Muhammad Peace be upon them, and the Messiah Christians were waiting for happens to Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon him. How hard is it to decode their stubbornness and false stories?

Furthermore, are you in denial of sahih hadiths? then please answer my question from where did you get method of offering namaz?

Sure, all the acts involved in Namaz are mentioned in Quran, Qiyam, Rukooh Sajda, even the timings.

Stop relying on this lame argument, bring something more concrete and undeniable. Namaz according to sayings associated with Messenger Muhammad is different for Shiite, Sunni Deo Bandi, Sunni Barailvi, Sunni Ahle Hadees.

Furthermore, predictions about Gog and Magog are also from Quran that they will be released on earth. We have not seen any nation named Gog and Magog since last
14 centuries. So Quran is also wrong about that?

Which verse?

Maybe I got confused with what you are saying. Are you asking about return of Hazat Isa? It is in the Quran and Sahih Muslim, Sahih Bukhari.

And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path. 43:61

Bai there is this quality of Quran that nothing in isolation would ever make sense, if you wish to understand some concept from Quran, you cannot just read one verse, you have to read all related verses together. The practice is called Tasreef ul Ayat, it's like reading a law book where different related provisions are mentioned in different sections and on different pages. For instance read Surah Suf 61. The whole Surah and then the last verse. This is the same Surah which mentions that Issa had told his followers about coming of Ahmed. And the last verse confirms the accomplishment of Hazrat Issa's mission in this world.

 

[The Accountant]

People were informed by the divine books who is to come next. Jews, Christians both of them knew from their books about coming of Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon him, but very few accepted. So the Messiah Jews were waiting for happen to be Messenger Ibn e Mariam and Muhammad Peace be upon them, and the Messiah Christians were waiting for happens to Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon him. How hard is it to decode their stubbornness and false stories?

Kindly share the new testament where Muhammad SAW was mentioned. Don't quote the statement of Hazrat Issa A.S. from bible as it is equivallent to hadith of which you are denying.

Sure, all the acts involved in Namaz are mentioned in Quran, Qiyam, Rukooh Sajda, even the timings.

Reference please. And for wazo as well.

Stop relying on this lame argument, bring something more concrete and undeniable. Namaz according to sayings associated with Messenger Muhammad is different for Shiite, Sunni Deo Bandi, Sunni Barailvi, Sunni Ahle Hadees.

How can you be selective of hadiths. Either you accept hadith or you not. You can't say that I will agree on some and will not agree on some. By the way Hadith about Imam Mehdi is also universally accepted by all legitimate sects other than some disco aalim like Ghamdi (the one who don't even have marks of Sajda) and ahmadis. So your argument is lame not mine.

Which verse?

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 21 Surah Anbiyaa verses 96-97:

96 Until the Gog and Magog (people) are let through (their barrier) and they swiftly swarm from every hill.

97 Then will the True Promise draw nigh (of fulfillment): then behold! the eyes of the Unbelievers will fixedly stare in horror: "Ah! woe to us! we were indeed heedless of this; nay we truly did wrong!"

Bai there is this quality of Quran that nothing in isolation would ever make sense, if you wish to understand some concept from Quran, you cannot just read one verse, you have to read all related verses together. The practice is called Tasreef ul Ayat, it's like reading a law book where different related provisions are mentioned in different sections and on different pages. For instance read Surah Suf 61. The whole Surah and then the last verse. This is the same Surah which mentions that Issa had told his followers about coming of Ahmed.

Yes Hazrat Issa A.S. foretold his followers about coming of Hazrat Muhammad A.S. but it is not in the original text of bible i.e. the god revelations. but it is in hadiths of Hazrat Issa A.S. so you are denial of hadiths of Muhammad SAW but referring to hadiths of Hazrat Issa A.S.

When coming of Muhammad SAW was foretold by Hazrat Issa AS through his hadith (confirmed by QUran) is acceptable to you but when similar act was done by Muhammad SAW i.e. coming of Hazrat Imam Mehdi AS and the second coming of Hazrat Issa AS was foretold then it is not acceptable. WHat a double standard.

And the last verse confirms the accomplishment of Hazrat Issa's mission in this world.

Which last verse? I am unable to find any such statement. Can you please be specific and proof your point.

 

[I.R.A]

Kindly share the new testament where Muhammad SAW was mentioned. Don't quote the statement of Hazrat Issa A.S. from bible as it is equivallent to hadith of which you are denying.

I haven't studied Bible or Torah. This is what Quran has to say.

"And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." 61:6

Reference please.

وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَارْكَعُوا مَعَ الرَّاكِعِينَ
2:43

There is whole Surah in Quran called Surah e Sajeda

Read verse 7:206 for Sajeda

Surah e Muzamil i.e Surah 73 of Quran

These are few examples of where acts involved in Namaz are mentioned.

And how to say Namaz, cannot be learnt from books, it's an act best learnt by watching others and performing it yourself.

And for wazo as well.

I hope you are not teaching your kids how to Wazo from a book.

Which last verse? I am unable to find any such statement. Can you please be specific and proof your point.

61:14

"O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant."

 

[The Accountant]

I haven't studied Bible or Torah. This is what Quran has to say.

"And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." 61:6

Read again sir, Quran is saying "Jesus, the son of Mary, said". Quran is telling you that coming of Muhammad SAW was not in bible otherwise it would have been written that Allah said to Issa A.S. or it was written in Bible. On the contrary Quran is referring to sermon of Hazrat Issa A.S. Hence coming of Hazrat Muhammad SAW was not in bible but in sermons of prophet and applying the same principle I am using the sermons of Hazrat Muhammad SAW which as in sahih hadith and you are referring them as fairy tales. Thats double standard on your part.

وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَارْكَعُوا مَعَ الرَّاكِعِينَ
2:43

There is whole Surah in Quran called Surah e Sajeda

Read verse 7:206 for Sajeda

Surah e Muzamil i.e Surah 73 of Quran

These are few examples of where acts involved in Namaz are mentioned.

I am talking about namaz which is different from Sajda.

Sajda is also mentioned in Sorah Yousuf where parents and brothers of Hazrat Yousuf AS are paying Sajda to him so from Quran so Sajda, roko, salam takbir are different then namaz.

And how to say Namaz, cannot be learnt from books, it's an act best learnt by watching others and performing it yourself.



I hope you are not teaching your kids how to Wazo from a book.

Yes I do learn myself the wazoo and namaz from sahih hadith to identify if I am doing it right or wrong. Because this is books are for. If hadiths are of no importance then why did Allah send Muhammad SAW, and why didn't he just send a book? People could have read it directly.

61:14

"O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant."

Where it is written that mission of Hazrat Issa AS is over? Was his mission to overcome the enemy or to spread Judiasim? I hope you knows that Hazrat Issa AS never preached any religion named Christianity and it was invented by Saint Paul after 30 years ...

Hazrat Issa AS was there to remove corruption from original Judaism and nowadays where are original followers of judiasim? or did they cam to power during or after Hazrat Issa AS? Still, you are saying the mission of Issa AS.

I am sorry but you have completely distorted and self made and self interpretation of Quran.

 

[I.R.A]

I am sorry but you have completely distorted and self made and self interpretation of Quran.

I haven't forced you to agree with me. You can hold onto your views and I am entitled to my understanding.

 

[The Accountant]

I haven't forced you to agree with me. You can hold onto your views and I am entitled to my understanding.

Agreed but I will confront you if you try to spread your incorrect understanding on a public forum like this.

Ofcourse this will be based on facts and source so that readers can judge what is right and what is wrong.

However, you have still not made one thing clear , do you really deny the hadiths? What is your basis of such a denial?

 

[I.R.A]

However, you have still not made one thing clear , do you really deny the hadiths? What is your basis of such a denial?

You are not ready to have that discussion with me.

Agreed but I will confront you if you try to spread your incorrect understanding on a public forum like this.

Yes sure, I am not participating in a winning contest.

Ofcourse this will be based on facts and source so that readers can judge what is right and what is wrong.

Facts and source in these matters cannot be contradictory in nature ........ if all is words of ALLAH

You believe that there are sayings of Ibn e Mariam as there are sayings of Muhammad peace be upon both of them. And it's an undeniable truth and fact that Torah and Bible got manipulated and meanings changed. People started replacing ALLAH's words with their own words.

 

[The Accountant]

You are not ready to have that discussion with me.

Why not?

Yes sure, I am not participating in a winning contest.

I am not discussing with you for winning but to prevent people from misinformationion

Facts and source in these matters cannot be contradictory in nature ........ if all is words of ALLAH

You believe that there are sayings of Ibn e Mariam as there are sayings of Muhammad peace be upon both of them. And it's an undeniable truth and fact that Torah and Bible got manipulated and meanings changed. People started replacing ALLAH's words with their own words.

Yes and that's why I am referring to sahih hadith which were compiled after passing through a certain standard... You can choose not to believe on those (its your personal choice) but you can't claim those to be incorrect or faisy as you do not have any basis of such a claim...

Even with your standards if there is a probability of corruption in sahih hadith then there is even greater probablity that the concept you are trying to spread is corrupt as there are no basis to support your instance...

At best you should choose not to accept or deny sahih hadith unless you prove the basis that sahih hadiths are fabricated ...

 

[I.R.A]

Why not?

What do you understand by the word Hadees? What does that word define generally?

 

[The Accountant]

An act or statement of a person referred by some other person ... Like a statement of mine narrated by friend will be my hadith whereas if I am directly stating something than its a statement

What do you understand by the word Hadees? What does that word define generally?

 

[I.R.A]

An act or statement of a person referred by some other person ... Like a statement of mine narrated by friend will be my hadith whereas if I am directly stating something than its a statement

And what would you call Sahih Bukhari and other five books? Sayings of who?

 

[Arsalan]

"Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him (Muhammad SAW or the Ka'bah at Makkah) as they recongise their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it" 2:146

"Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know" 2:146

Arsalan bai parhay likhay admi ho, kahan truck ki batti k peechay lag gay ho. Moses told his followers about the Messengers who will come in future, but when the time came very few of them accepted, and rest preferred waiting for another to appear (stories got created). Jesus told his followers who is going to come in future (he even told them the name), again when the time came very few accepted and rest preferred waiting for reappearance of Jesus (stories got created again). Muhammad never told his followers about coming of any other messenger or messiah. But Muslims stopped following Quran and started believing in fairy tales, and see what that brought us, Many amongst Muslims themselves claimed to have received the divine revelation, they have claimed the status of promised Messiah the Mahdi, some like Mr Ghulam Ahmed Mirza went ahead and claimed to be reincarnation of Jesus.

The awaited Messiah for both Jews and Christians have already appeared, but they refuse to accept. However, Muslims were never foretold about coming of a Messiah in Quran, but somehow they are hell bent on waiting for one. Let the Jews and Christians wait and believe in what they want, it has got nothing to do with us.

Very interesting point of view, i will come back with a detailed reply tomorrow inshallah

 

[messiach]

Iqbal in his book 'reconstruction of islam thought' lecture 6,7 - principle of movement in structure of islam, rejected existence of hadiths regarding the Mehdi and the reformation of islam at the end of history. Elsewhere in the book welcomes and commends the turkish effort to establish a secular republic and commented that the republican state is a suitable alternative to the KHILAFAH.
I admire his poetry but these are monumental mistakes followed by virtually every scholar of islam without thinking apart from imran hosein (there may be others i dont know off).

Can you be specific about iqbal's mistake ... Iqbal life changes over time ... He happenedo be a non-religious person initially but he changed with time and therefore his initial poetry changes alot with time ... For example, he wrote national anthem of india but later on, he became an anti nationalist ... For example: in taza khudaon mn bara sb sy watan hai. Jo perhan is ka hai wo millat ka kafan hai

Dr. Israr Ahmed is a remarkable person and has a very geniun understanding of Islam and QUran ...

 

[Falcon29]

Almahdi is not awaited in Sunni Islam. We also do not call him 'Imam'. He is not a messiah, he is also not really a mujadid. Because he doesn't come out to people to try to reform them, scholars will come to him in Mecca to appoint him as a leader, otherwise he will not be known. He will restore the Khilafah as well and hence is also considered of the rightly guided Caliph's. He will put Muslims back on track to the right path and he will assume our political/social affairs, which is what help create a lot of change for the better. So in that sense, we won't see much change because we don't have a single authority to look up to. On a personal level is different story, we work on improving ourselves and meeting Islam's tenets.

IRA you are wrong....

 

[TMA]

Iqbal in his book 'reconstruction of islam thought' lecture 6,7 - principle of movement in structure of islam, rejected existence of hadiths regarding the Mehdi and the reformation of islam at the end of history. Elsewhere in the book welcomes and commends the turkish effort to establish a secular republic and commented that the republican state is a suitable alternative to the KHILAFAH.
I admire his poetry but these are monumental mistakes followed by virtually every scholar of islam without thinking apart from imran hosein (there may be others i dont know off).

Yes.

But the real Allama Iqbal is Hindi and Dari.... Sir Iqbal is English.....

His Dari and Hindi works are completely different to his English works...almost like a duality or split personality....Pakistan should take heed from the Allama not the Sir....