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Islamic and Western thought in Turkey - A problem yet not solved

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Islam, like any other religion is an ideology. It commands people on every aspect of life. I don't hate or love Islam more than any other religion. There are very logical points in Islam and also there are some (imo) ridiculus But my personal view of religion can be summed up with one word: weakness of human will.

Of course its an ideology because ideologies deal with a set of ideas with some aims and objectives - what do you think Secularism, Nationalism, Humanism, Capitalism, Liberalism and all those other -isms out there are ?

Additionally what does this elusive and abstract concept of 'human will' mean ?


Most of the religions main rules command honor, morality, humility and standing up for what is right... Which can be easily thought and used in daily life by any moral and logical person. We don't need religions that are thausands of years old to dictate our life... Just because some of their ideas are logical doesn't mean that we should blind ourselves to their backwards ideologies...

Our topic is Islam so I am going to give an example from Islam,

Islam commands its believers that they should be moral, honest, helpful to others in need and they should not steal, lie, deceive, kill, abuse... Praticly, it commands its believers to be what most of the world percieve as a good human being. These can be easily thought by any human with average intelligent. The idea of a human with average intelligent have to look at books that has been written (or downed from heaven to earth, or whateve you believe in. I don't believe in it so to me it was written) thausand years ago rather than putting their own thoughs of what a decent human being should or should not do is saddening...

And yet if human reasoning was as monolithic and easier to come as you suggest it is...then the rights of individuals that even someone with sub-human intelligence can understand now wouldn't be ever so elusive to intellectual juggernauts of ages past. And yet moral skeptics like Joyce or Nietzsche wouldn't be arguing against all the many morals and ethics we do prescribe to. In fact, one might even argue that the 'rights' and the 'wrongs' that we so conveniently talk about, have we ever thought how do you define 'right and wrong' to begin with. Philosophers have wasted away their entire lives trying to argue these things and yet we have the temerity of sprouting ideas as mere rhetoric. Furthermore, the field of epistemology wouldn't be as unending as it is right now if human logic and reasoning were ever so ubiquitous. Nor would acts of shear madness have been perpetrated by some of the most earthly of ideologies; though one may indeed argue that how can you define madness and say whether what Hitler did or didn't do was wrong when we can't even define the very word wrong in itself...and whether we do indeed have the right to do so....except what does 'right' mean ? A never ending chasm...a pandora's box (choose your pick) is what these questions present to the human mind. So my dear lady, if I may commit the insolence of saying as such - you have a very myopic view of all of this.


Religions (oppressive regimes too) in general hinder free thiniking and creativity. They make people believe in dogmas and frown upon any negative comments on them with fierce passion. They become taboos in many people lifes. Think, how many philosopher/scientist came out from religious times and how many philosopher/scientist came out from the time of freethought? How many religion based scholars/scientists/philosophers came out from religions hitory of 3 thausand years and how many scholars/scientists/philosophers came out from history of free thought that has been around for +/- 200 years?

Ever heard of the Mutazila ? Of how integrally and intrinsically linked early Islamic Philosophy is with Western Philosophy ? Ever heard of Avicenna, Averroes, Alkindus, Alpharabius, Alberonius from the Muslim world, of Maimonides, Gaon, Al-Mukkammas from the Jewish World, Aquninos, Kierksgaard, Albertus Magnus, Augustine from the Christian World, who form the basis of Western Philosophical thought. And these names are just a fleeting reminder of what theologians and scientists came out of the 'Religious times'...by the way God knows what you mean by that seeing that even as majority contemporary philosophical giants like Kant, Descartes, Rosseau and Voltaire were religious men. I'm sure you've heard of Rumi but there are mystics who contributed to 'Philosophical thought' from as diverse backgrounds as Socrates to Al-Gazzali too. Might I even continue !
 
Secular societies do not have dogmas or taboos that can hinder creaticity and freethought but religons have...

Secular societies from Nazi Germany to the Gulags of Communist Russia to the war mongering of contemporary US foreign policy have done more to hinder creativity and free thought, not to mention engage in murder, rape and arson of whole civilizations, than any religion ever did.

By the way...even though the political health of the Muslims suffered greatly during the Umayyad and later the Abassid and Andalusian Empires...their intellectual prowess was unmatched.
 
I agree on your first part. It is not Islam that should be fault. Religion is religion there is no difference between them. The difference between muslims and christians is this, they shake them off their taboos and opressive religious leaders while muslims in generald did not.

Muslims biggest problem is not emperialism, its their failure at shaking of their religious taboos and dogmas and allow freethought. Thats why Emperial powers can easlily control muslim countries... A little support to some religious leader and one or two provacative word from him then you have a country with inner turmoil...

The same can be said for National Security and Nationalism or even Secularism.

Isn't American foreign policy responsible for the deaths of countless millions from an ideological war against Communism in Korea and Vietnam to God knows what they went for in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Didn't Bengalis and Pakistanis butcher each other in '71 in the name of national integrity for the former and justice with a hint of ethno-linguistic nationalism for the latter. Or that some Kurds clash with the Turkish Govt. for an Azad Kurdistan for the former and again National Integrity for the latter.

Aren't the Greeks oppressed by the ever so democratic EU with all of their policies being despotically coming out of Brussels....now that they've taken all those bailouts.

Haven't secular societies the world over gone over board and actually oppressed and visibly castigated religion in their quest to maintain equilibrium and harmony in the society.

Haven't the people in all of the above instances been washed away by impassioned rhetoric and made a fool out of by politicians and ended up giving their tacit and conspicuous endorsement to all of the above.

So in short...isn't religion just another intensifier that can be replaced by any other because there are a myriad of such intensifiers out there. Anything that we identify with strongly, whether its religion, ethnicity, country, a set of ideals..heck even human rights has the potential for gross exploitation and hence abuse.
 
It was wrong of me to say that secular cociety does not have taboo but there is not even a comperssion between religion based society and secular society on taboos and dogmas...

Even in ther core this shows very clearly... One is based on thoughts of one man from thausands of years back and one is based on contunius studies of experts and experinece of societies themselves...

If that we're indeed so then there wouldn't be such a diversity of opinion in the Muslim world nor would Muslim Polymaths battle each other tooth and nail for their ideologies in Baghdad or Cordoba.

Yes we've regressed massively but that regression is not because a society derived from religion is inherently flawed but rather because of the intrusion of politics in religious thought in ages past and governance. Additionally, the Golden Age of the Muslims was very much derived from religion and not any other 'ism' and yet they were the pioneers for a plethora of disciplines...if the Europeans took over from the Muslims and translated their texts from Arabic into Latin to progress themselves...then the Muslims must have been doing something right even in a religious environment for them to be worth learning from. And I don't imply secularism from the first point...for secularism in its modern sense goes far beyond a separation of religion and politics but rather an imposition of secularity in ones private life and thought to ensure that religiosity gets stifled in one's public life. No...I'm talking about impartiality and religious pluralism.
 
@Deno Living in Turkey you can't impossibly say that secularism has not any taboos. Under Ataturks leadership when Turkey was ruled under one party leadership Kazim Karabekir and his friends (one of them was Adnan Adıvar) founded a second party in Turkey called Progressive Republican Party/Terakkiperver Cumhuriyet Fırkası which advocated liberal democracy but was islamiccally oriented. Ataturk shut down this party because of allegations that never had real backings. After that single party period continued well into 1946. Only after that we saw other parties entering the political arena. But the multiparty period was itself full of turbulent years and coups until AKP entered the scene.

Today there are many taboos in Turkey thanks to secularism. People have been restricted Univeristies and other official areas just because they wear head scarf. Talking about Ataturk objectively is the biggest taboo. Furthermore children are brought up indoctrinating to be extremely subjective leaning towards Ataturkism. Though this is thankfully disappearing slowly thanks to the AKP.

The point of my thread was exactly to discuss these matters. Constructive criticism and an objective/realistic look into the Turkish history is far away from reality in Turkey. Those people who tried to introduce reforms that would benefit Turkey as a whole (economically, socially) were either executed (Menderes and his friends) or kept away from politics (Kazim Karabekir and his friend). Can you tell me if taboos don't exist, why are some forces (the defendors of secularism aka the military) banning political parties that are supported by the people? Adnan Menderes' DP in the 1950ies and several times tried to ban AKP in the 2000's 2010's? We all know Turkish political history has been turbulent until the AKP came to power. No sense sense in denying this. I am not telling you that Ataturk was all bad, he had done whatever he could do, but they were definately not perfect and in accordance with many's beliefs. Hence, today if we want to develop an enlightened youth whose heart is at peace we need to teach them real history and objectivity and constructive criticism. Living in Denmark my whole life i see that these are what Turkey's education lacks in.

Kazım Karabekir was not someone who wanted to improve Turkey economcly or socially.... He was someone who wanted to bring religion into state bussines... Look where it got Pakistan and Iran... Menderes was a person who wanted to bring caliphate back.... (''You can bring caliphate if you want'' Menderes when he was speaking to Grand National Assembly of Turkey) Please don't defend these people... I would love to have Ottoman Dynsty here in Istanbul as an exotic part of our history like Emporer of Japan but unfortunetly this is not very healty opinion for Turkey...

Mustafa Kemal what he had to do... There was a slight difference between Turkish muslim and a Egyptian muslim back then... There had to be a dictator to defend secularism and democracy (though never achived) Thanks to state propaganda we could reduce the sharia supporters to %7 of population.

Please, are you really saying that CHP is democrathic and left wing? Even AKP which is a conservitive party is more liberal than those fascists... Although Kılıctaroğu was able to supress them he still lacks the charisma to take peoples votes... Clever person like Mustafa Kemal would know that after all these years time of military intervensions, barbaric rules like scarf ban would be pointless and harmfull.

AKP did not achive these accomplishments because they were religious or because they obeyed the rule of quaran, They could avhive this much success because they were organizing themselves in craftsmens for 20 years and believe me even though I support their success in social issues and voted for them myself they are not angels... If you lived in Turkey AKP's nepotism and their and many many other thigs... Most of our people know this... Most of the time you can even get a goverment job without connections from party... Lets not forget that privizations of big componies with very very and again very cheap prices to European componies... AKP is not perfect, they are just the best we have at the moment..




BTW: STOP ASSOCIATING MUSTAFA KEMAL WITH SCARF BAN! SCARF BAN WAS PUT INTO FORCE IN 1984!!
 
I was reading an article written in 1947 by Adnan Adivar, one of the founding fathers of the modern republic. In his article he is summing up very thoroughly the errors made by both the Ottoman Empire and the modern Turkish Republic when dealing with religion and western thought. In the following i will try to give my two cents about the landscape which the article helped me understand better.

Firstly every Turkish person is according to me obligated to learn and understand his/her history if they want to process and discuss about these topics. We have seen several times in this forum (and many other internet pages/forums) what pure ignorance of fanticism of any kind leads to. Therefore i hope people will respect my thoughts and writings when i present them here.

Basically what Adivar is dealing with in his article is the core reason for the fall of Ottoman and the core problem for todays main political disagreements, as he perfectly concludes in the article
"Only when a reform of this kind (critical spirit and free information flow without any restrictions) comes about will Turkey be able to combine the streams of its cultural heritage and evolve an in-
tegrated intellectual movement"

One of the most important reasons to the fall of Ottoman Empire was its rejection of Western technology, Philosophy and science. The Ottoman simply refused to implement teachings being taught in European schools into its own lands. The reason for this was crystal clear: Why should we teach our kids European teachings which is full of kufr and may lead our younger generations into being kuffars? This was the biggest error made by the Ottoman in its time. To be unable to catch up to Europe and to stay in dark when Europe was experiencing the Age of Enlightenment and industrialization. The Ottoman was simply foolish to think that Islam defies science and philospophy which was being taught in Europe in a much more sophisticated level. We may mention the Tanzimat but that was simply too weak.

Let us fast forward to the Young Turks and modern Turkey. When Ataturk and his comrades signed the Treaty of Lausanne after the war of independence a bright new future awaited a new Turkey. Mustafa Kemal became the republic's first President and subsequently introduced many radical reforms with the aim of founding a new secular republic. But things didn't go perfect for Turkey and we never witnessed a true enlightenment and peace between the religious and secularist parties/groups in Turkey. Why did this happen?

This happened for a very good reason. After the establishment of the Republic and the introduction of secularism many people felt betrayed, let us talk straight people this is the reality. Ataturk by looking at the Ottoman empires past observed a pattern. He came to understand that by ignoring the West Ottoman was kept in the dark by foolish rulers who could not analyze the future and present of the state of their empire. Ataturk felt that by abolishing Islam from the system Turkey may lead to scientific and social revolutions. But as the Ottomans feared the West Ataturk feared Islam. The outcome was not exactly pretty for Turkish Republic as well.

Dear readers, the problem was that Ataturk feared Islam may corrupt the state once again because of its past. Yet the problem was not Islam, but it was the Ottoman rulers who tried to isloate the state completely from Western enlightenment movement. So to say they kept away science, philosphy, industry etc away from Ottoman because they thought these were not compatible with Islam. The same thing was done by the Turkish Republic but the opposite. Therefore the answer is simple. Once Islam is fully integrated into science, technology and philosphy we will truly evolve an integrated intellectual movement. I don't recommend that we should abolish the constitution, but we should be able to observe the clear faults done by our past leaders, that is both in the Turkish Republic and as well in the Ottoman Empire. One cannot embrace true enlightenment as long as certain thoughts and movements are kept in the dark. The Ottoman Empire's failure illustrates that perfectly. We should develop a sense of constructive criticism and make lessons of our past mistakes, that is both in the era of all the presidents in the Turkish Republic and in the era of Ottoman Empire. What i have learned being among Turkish youth for all my life (both intellectual University students and others) is that we lack that quality.

Some are afraid to criticize Ataturk, some are afraid to criticize the Ottoman. We should fear mindless fanaticism beyond everything else. Because the best friend is the one who tells right from wrong even though it might hurt you.

Written by Zulkarneyn

A really intellectual piece there by you Mr. Zulkarneyn. Now i would like to say something before that i will be honest i am not knowledgeable in any way on Turkish history. I am trying to argue only on the article by you. So here it goes:

Firstly you say that Mr. Ataturk feared Islam like the Ottoman rulers that it would corrupt the state. Later on you argue that it wasn't Islam but the rulers themselves who were the problem, for they kept Turkey away from (who tried to isloate the state completely from Western enlightenment movement) the enlightenment as it was thought to be incompatible with Islam. My question is why do you think that either the Ottoman rulers or Mr. Ataturk have done a mistake??

I think both these leaders had a clear idea that Islam and Western values are not compatible with each other and it is true isn't it? The so called "enlightenment" (i would like you to make it clear what u mean by this word??) means different things in different parts of the world. If u speak of liberal values, separation of religion from the state affairs and democratic method of political system and the industrialization as such then these values developed overtime in the West as a result of the problems faced by the general public over there from their rulers. The Church role in various monarchies in Europe is well known for the enormous clout it held and the cases of Galileo and Copernicus serve as examples of their behavior.

I am not saying they don't hold good for the rest of us, what i am trying to say is u value the values when u learn them not when you are taught. The Muslim world as such wasn't experiencing the turmoil of "Dark ages" and "Renaissance movement" etc etc like in Europe was it?? How many Muslim countries had revolutions like in France and later on all of Europe or for that case any Asian country. I am not saying all was hunky dory but was there such urge among the people.

It is quite understandable that the rulers of Ottoman Empire wouldn't want their hold to be weakened by bringing in the so called "Enlightenment" as they thought it wasn't required. I am pretty sure (i may be wrong too) that u are taking this as a mistake because u as one looking back at your country's history think that the great Ottoman Empire would have been successful if such Enlightenment happened and there wouldn't be any divisions of the empire as happened after World War I.

In the same way Mr. Ataturk who looking back at his country's history from his point of time, must have felt that too much religion and state intermixing was not good as it could again hurt his country at some point of time in future and as such he established the kind of republic you have now. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Secondly there is an underlying point in your article, that somehow the West's way of doing things is the best way. Pardon me for saying this but, why this intellectual slavery sir?? Is this because of the West's supremacy on the world stage for some centuries??

West's success was in science which they openly embraced after condemning it for centuries themselves. Civilizations old and ancient in middle east or Asia couldn't stand against them because of lack of weapons on par with them i accept, but i will not accept that the school of thought in vogue in the West is the only enlightenment. Give time to the societies so that they can themselves grow out of their intellectual and societal dogmas rather than ape the West.

Unfortunately the Cultural bastardization has already happened in all countries all over the world long time back, due to their (Western) occupation of 36% of the world and later on through media nowadays. As you said the youth of Turkey should be learning from the mistakes of their history, however not on whether West's philosophy was brought in late and whether today Islam is being kept out unnecessarily. Instead they should think out of the box like what are the differences between various school of thoughts existing and how they can be bridged?? How the country can reach the glorious times of the Ottoman period sans the wars etc etc

I am criticizing not you personally but the points i found controversial to me. Hope u can clear my points.
 
Kazım Karabekir was not someone who wanted to improve Turkey economcly or socially.... He was someone who wanted to bring religion into state bussines... Look where it got Pakistan and Iran...

Oh please...the Republic of Turkey was created in '23 and until a decade or two ago...it certainly wasn't anything to brag about. You had your moments of brilliance and moments of failures like the rest of us. You had your military interventions, your state emergencies and economic decline...so again I say - you're missing the point - economic, intellectual and political success along with national cohesion is all because of good governance....if you haven't that then even an atheistic state like North Korea will suffer and an ideological state like Israel will succeed.

And Iran with all their perceived war mongering and fanaticism has created a certain self-sufficiency that is worthy of admiration.
 
Of course its an ideology because ideologies deal with a set of ideas with some aims and objectives - what do you think Secularism, Nationalism, Humanism, Capitalism, Liberalism and all those other -isms out there are ?

Additionally what does this elusive and abstract concept of 'human will' mean ?

Humans should be individuals with their own identity and ideas and fallowing in the steps of thausands of years ideas... By weakness of human mind I mean, a person needs moral strengh to break away from the chains that holds him/her to reach free and objective mind... Religion is of the main chains.




And yet if human reasoning was as monolithic and easier to come as you suggest it is...then the rights of individuals that even someone with sub-human intelligence can understand now wouldn't be ever so elusive to intellectual juggernauts of ages past. And yet moral skeptics like Joyce or Nietzsche wouldn't be arguing against all the many morals and ethics we do prescribe to. In fact, one might even argue that the 'rights' and the 'wrongs' that we so conveniently talk about, have we ever thought how do you define 'right and wrong' to begin with. Philosophers have wasted away their entire lives trying to argue these things and yet we have the temerity of sprouting ideas as mere rhetoric. Furthermore, the field of epistemology wouldn't be as unending as it is right now if human logic and reasoning were ever so ubiquitous. Nor would acts of shear madness have been perpetrated by some of the most earthly of ideologies; though one may indeed argue that how can you define madness and say whether what Hitler did or didn't do was wrong when we can't even define the very word wrong in itself...and whether we do indeed have the right to do so....except what does 'right' mean ? A never ending chasm...a pandora's box (choose your pick) is what these questions present to the human mind. So my dear lady, if I may commit the insolence of saying as such - you have a very myopic view of all of this.

What you are talking reaching a point of perfection in human ethics and morals... That is simply impossible and thats why for thausands of years people are debating that...

What I am talking about is this, a moral and avarage person figure out the basic human ethics and morals without religions rules... Which is true...




Ever heard of the Mutazila ? Of how integrally and intrinsically linked early Islamic Philosophy is with Western Philosophy ? Ever heard of Avicenna, Averroes, Alkindus, Alpharabius, Alberonius from the Muslim world, of Maimonides, Gaon, Al-Mukkammas from the Jewish World, Aquninos, Kierksgaard, Albertus Magnus, Augustine from the Christian World, who form the basis of Western Philosophical thought. And these names are just a fleeting reminder of what theologians and scientists came out of the 'Religious times'...by the way God knows what you mean by that seeing that even as majority contemporary philosophical giants like Kant, Descartes, Rosseau and Voltaire were religious men. I'm sure you've heard of Rumi but there are mystics who contributed to 'Philosophical thought' from as diverse backgrounds as Socrates to Al-Gazzali too. Might I even continue !

History of freethougt is less than 200 years and it created nearly the same amount of scholar maybe even more and history of Abrahamic religion is more than 3000 years.....
 
I agree that the scarf ban is a shame on our republic. it should never have been made, but it's proof that we have some rotten apples in our republic. I think the suggestion of compulsory education until age 18 would be good. No child would ever suffer from being neglected.

I am strongly against what AKP is trying to do with the 8 years compulsory and 4 years free choice (e.g. home schooling etc.).

There should be life imprisonment sentence for any marriages/intercourse with children below age 15. Which means any religious marriages would ensure life imprisonment the Imam should also be held accountable for doing it and also giving him/her life imprisonment. An imam wouldn't benefit from any softnening of the prison term as he should know better than performing any such marriages.

I know that age limit on marriages is changing as time goes by, it's a social norm that has been accepted many places. But I strongly believe that anyone who enters marriage in our age must have an education so that they are able to make rational choices and not accept it as their fate. e.g. if the husband is a violent bastard, or the husband decides to marry 2-3 times more.
 
Oh please...the Republic of Turkey was created in '23 and until a decade or two ago...it certainly wasn't anything to brag about. You had your moments of brilliance and moments of failures like the rest of us. You had your military interventions, your state emergencies and economic decline...so again I say - you're missing the point - economic, intellectual and political success along with national cohesion is all because of good governance....if you haven't that then even an atheistic state like North Korea will suffer and an ideological state like Israel will succeed.

And Iran with all their perceived war mongering and fanaticism has created a certain self-sufficiency that is worthy of admiration.

I wasn't talking about economy... I was talking about society... If there was a stong state propaganda like it was in Turkey about importance of secularism, Pakistan would not suffer 1 bombing attack for every few days. Even though most of the attacks are with foreign state backed they couldn't find this much bombers if secularist were the majority... I hope and pray to Allah (if there is one) that Pakistan will be able to shake of this problems but unfortunatly Pakistan is at brink of collopsing if a strong goverment and leader cannot be found in 10-15 years...

North Korea has a religion... only difference is their prophet lived in previous century... Israel is a secular country created that has ideological roots...

Irans self-sefficiency in military is based on copying Chinese and US -what is left from Shahs times* products not on indigenous development.
 
Humans should be individuals with their own identity and ideas and fallowing in the steps of thausands of years ideas... By weakness of human mind I mean, a person needs moral strengh to break away from the chains that holds him/her to reach free and objective mind... Religion is of the main chains.

Typical arguments for an atheist (I assume you are an atheist).

What makes you say that Religion is a chain, why is it difficult for you to accept that it may be motivational factor, or an injection of adrenalin.

Every atheist in this world can only see religion as a negative thing, something that slows down humans. Are you familiar with the story of the two monks who had to pass a river, where one of the monks helped a woman across by carrying her on his back.

After a while the other monk asks his companion, "why did you carry the woman across the river, you know we're forbidden from having physical contact with women".

"Brother, are you still carrying around that woman, I left her at riverbank".

Wonderful buddist story, and a great example of the burden atheists seem to carry. Religious people have their faith (content with it) and atheists seems to have that as.

Perhaps it's time for you to move on.
 
Armstrong I love the way you write! however, as you know in Nietzsche's works emphasis was placed upon the ontological status of language! nietzsche's critique of (Christian) morality-ethics is mainly the critique of "so called" immaculate origin(s)

so in "fact" this thread is all about the war of immaculate origin(s); God V.S. Reason! which are equally .........

anyway have fun guys and girls
 
A really intellectual piece there by you Mr. Zulkarneyn. Now i would like to say something before that i will be honest i am not knowledgeable in any way on Turkish history. I am trying to argue only on the article by you. So here it goes:

Firstly you say that Mr. Ataturk feared Islam like the Ottoman rulers that it would corrupt the state. Later on you argue that it wasn't Islam but the rulers themselves who were the problem, for they kept Turkey away from (who tried to isloate the state completely from Western enlightenment movement) the enlightenment as it was thought to be incompatible with Islam. My question is why do you think that either the Ottoman rulers or Mr. Ataturk have done a mistake??

I think both these leaders had a clear idea that Islam and Western values are not compatible with each other and it is true isn't it? The so called "enlightenment" (i would like you to make it clear what u mean by this word??) means different things in different parts of the world. If u speak of liberal values, separation of religion from the state affairs and democratic method of political system and the industrialization as such then these values developed overtime in the West as a result of the problems faced by the general public over there from their rulers. The Church role in various monarchies in Europe is well known for the enormous clout it held and the cases of Galileo and Copernicus serve as examples of their behavior.

I am not saying they don't hold good for the rest of us, what i am trying to say is u value the values when u learn them not when you are taught. The Muslim world as such wasn't experiencing the turmoil of "Dark ages" and "Renaissance movement" etc etc like in Europe was it?? How many Muslim countries had revolutions like in France and later on all of Europe or for that case any Asian country. I am not saying all was hunky dory but was there such urge among the people.

It is quite understandable that the rulers of Ottoman Empire wouldn't want their hold to be weakened by bringing in the so called "Enlightenment" as they thought it wasn't required. I am pretty sure (i may be wrong too) that u are taking this as a mistake because u as one looking back at your country's history think that the great Ottoman Empire would have been successful if such Enlightenment happened and there wouldn't be any divisions of the empire as happened after World War I.

In the same way Mr. Ataturk who looking back at his country's history from his point of time, must have felt that too much religion and state intermixing was not good as it could again hurt his country at some point of time in future and as such he established the kind of republic you have now. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Secondly there is an underlying point in your article, that somehow the West's way of doing things is the best way. Pardon me for saying this but, why this intellectual slavery sir?? Is this because of the West's supremacy on the world stage for some centuries??

West's success was in science which they openly embraced after condemning it for centuries themselves. Civilizations old and ancient in middle east or Asia couldn't stand against them because of lack of weapons on par with them i accept, but i will not accept that the school of thought in vogue in the West is the only enlightenment. Give time to the societies so that they can themselves grow out of their intellectual and societal dogmas rather than ape the West.

Unfortunately the Cultural bastardization has already happened in all countries all over the world long time back, due to their (Western) occupation of 36% of the world and later on through media nowadays. As you said the youth of Turkey should be learning from the mistakes of their history, however not on whether West's philosophy was brought in late and whether today Islam is being kept out unnecessarily. Instead they should think out of the box like what are the differences between various school of thoughts existing and how they can be bridged?? How the country can reach the glorious times of the Ottoman period sans the wars etc etc

I am criticizing not you personally but the points i found controversial to me. Hope u can clear my points.

Firstly let me make one thing crystal clear. I do not think the West is the model we should strive for. This may be the first post you read by me, but i have on several accounts mentioned that. What i meant with the Enlightenment was the Age og Enlightenment in the West which staretd aroung 18th century Age of Enlightenment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The point i was trying to make is that the fault of the Ottoman empire was to isolate itself from the developments around the European continent when half of European lands was conquered by themselves. Technology and science came to a total halt in the last period of the Ottoman thanks to incompetent leaders. I don't say we should copy-cat the West. That is why i recommend as the OP suggest to find our own strenght by intermingling Islam and Science/Technology. Ataturk tried to isolate the country from Islam and that has not been optimal for Turkey. Contrary it has halted political and educational development for some. Turkey, as every other country on earth, is unique. We should cope with our own problems and issues in our own way. That is exactly what Ataturk failed to observe.He completely removed all the Islamic institutions and tried to copycat European laws and society. That is what made Turkey unstable for very long time. Because certain people simply could not or did not want to live like a European when their ancestry and roots were of complete different kind.

I simply reject to believe as you that Europe should be our model. Turkey should develop its own unique society by being in peace with Islam instead of rejecting Islam from the system. People want to live as a Muslim and wants to be respected citizen and hold their heads high even if they wear headscarf. It is a big shame on us as Turks that we still see bad treatments of Muslim women just because they choose to wear the headscarf etc. We have simply chosen a wrong path since the founding of the republic. If you read the article by Adivar you will come to understand it much better. Islam and politics, science, technology modernity goes hand in hand if you truly follow what Allah has chosen for us.

The materialistic world view imposed by West into our own lands is simply not what we should strive for. Instead we should be able to live in harmony with our sorroundings and develop our own unique country, because we can build much better than what we have at the moment. We should free ourselves from the chain set by secularism which constantly disrupts the country with nonsense propaganda machine, which even the majority of the citizens dislikes. We are not some sheep who have to be constantly reminded of Ataturk's greatness and the things he brought to the country, why do we not look at an alternative perspective and look at what he did not bring the country? Like religious freedom and respect for our own culture and islam?

I am sorry to say this, but the time i have spent on this forum i have been able to observe one clear pattern on people who associate themselves with secularist thought. I don't want to elaborate one that since i expect that enlightened people will be able to understand what i am talking about.
 
I wasn't talking about economy... I was talking about society... If there was a stong state propaganda like it was in Turkey about importance of secularism, Pakistan would not suffer 1 bombing attack for every few days. Even though most of the attacks are with foreign state backed they couldn't find this much bombers if secularist were the majority... I hope and pray to Allah (if there is one) that Pakistan will be able to shake of this problems but unfortunatly Pakistan is at brink of collopsing if a strong goverment and leader cannot be found in 10-15 years...

North Korea has a religion... only difference is their prophet lived in previous century... Israel is a secular country created that has ideological roots...

Irans self-sefficiency in military is based on copying Chinese and US -what is left from Shahs times* products not on indigenous development.

Ironically enough it was a secular country that with the help of a bunch of other secular and Islamic countries along with Pakistan created these Taliban to begin with. Additionally, like I said, if it wasn't Islamism it would something else....what prompted the Pakistani Army and the Govt. to initiate a brutal crackdown in what is now called Bangladesh ? And the Mukhti Bahini weren't motivated by Islam either when they butchered Biharis and other West Pakistani Civilians by the handfuls. Even now the Pakistani establishment, allegedly, engages in extra-judicial actions including killings in Balochistan in the name of national cohesion and against alleged extremists in lieu of the War on Terror. So again I say...if it isn't Islam it would be something else...we human beings as Descartes (I think) said are 'noble savages'....we need a focal point, an intensifier to give justification to our atrocities. So, in my humble opinion, the success or failure of a state isn't governed by its religiosity or secularity but rather by its quality of governance.

Are you talking about Confucius ? North Korea doesn't have any religion ! But even if they do..why does a country, to the best of my knowledge, that was declared one of the most irreligious in the one - Albania -is in such a torrid condition. Why does China, as many critics of China point out...though I don't prescribe to such a view, being a country by and large devoid of religion commit gross human rights abuses ? And didn't you say that religion is an ideology ? So by that same token shouldn't Israel an ideological country be spoken of in the same breadth.

And my dear sister, call a spade a spade and give credit where its due. No country out there has been subjected to the kind of sanctions that Iran has and yet they've still managed to achieve a certain self-sufficiency and I wasn't implying that in a military context. I don't really like them any more than you do (maybe just a bit more...:cheesy:) but I do respect them for the few things that they've achieved under absolutely torrid conditions.

P.S I'd respond to the first one afterwords.....football awaits me :woot:
 
Thanks to Zulkarneyn for the article, surely an interesting thread which is open to many of aspects of life and open to discussion.

History is the backbone of the world, and through history mankind has learned alot of ideas and ideals, religion has made big revolutions in human philosophy and entity throughout the history.

We've seen how big a role Islam and other religions has played in big empires like Rashidun-caliphate, Ummayad's, Romans/Byzantium, Abbasids, Ottomans and so it continues.

The golden ages of Muslims happened when they kept tight to the rulings of Islam, and slowly it was weakened when the bound to Islam was fading away, because of hesitation and strategical western pressure.

Kemal Atatürk the founder of Turkey somehow saw the problem in religion, because he saw religion as a barrier to progression. Immitating the succesful western society was the way forward he thought, and so he did.
The early times of Turkey was based on extreme secularism, and that's how the Muslim people felt opressed. Some minorities in a country with many ethnic backgrounds, felt very opressed because they were not able to practice what was their backbone in life, the Kurds is an example to this.

Today Turkiye has a Muslim president and PM. The progression of human rights and religious freedom is on a remarkable level. This is another proof that the Islam has nothing else rather than contribution to the modern world.
There is no place in Islam which indicates the opposite as the above mentioned, Islam enforce us to read and research and to progress as a human being.

The first words of the revelations from Allah (swt) through Gabriel (a.s) to Muhammad (pbuh) was nothing else than: "Read!"

I'll leave you with an English translation of the first revelation in the mount Hira:

96:1 "Read! In the Name of your Lord Who created."
96:2 "He has created man from a clot."
96:3 "Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous."
96:4 "Who has taught by the pen."
96:5 "He has taught man that which he knew not."
 
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