Islamic and Western thought in Turkey - A problem yet not solved

[huzihaidao12]

Muslim world is always a close-knit community's mentality than other religions, Muslim, always a social form, if as a society will accept a new system, it will have a system debugging problem.

 

[Deno]

Islam, like any other religion is an ideology. It commands people on every aspect of life. I don't hate or love Islam more than any other religion. There are very logical points in Islam and also there are some (imo) ridiculus But my personal view of religion can be summed up with one word: weakness of human will.

Most of the religions main rules command honor, morality, humility and standing up for what is right... Which can be easily thought and used in daily life by any moral and logical person. We don't need religions that are thausands of years old to dictate our life... Just because some of their ideas are logical doesn't mean that we should blind ourselves to their backwards ideologies...

Our topic is Islam so I am going to give an example from Islam,

Islam commands its believers that they should be moral, honest, helpful to others in need and they should not steal, lie, deceive, kill, abuse... Praticly, it commands its believers to be what most of the world percieve as a good human being. These can be easily thought by any human with average intelligent. The idea of a human with average intelligent have to look at books that has been written (or downed from heaven to earth, or whateve you believe in. I don't believe in it so to me it was written) thausand years ago rather than putting their own thoughs of what a decent human being should or should not do is saddening...

Religions (oppressive regimes too) in general hinder free thiniking and creativity. They make people believe in dogmas and frown upon any negative comments on them with fierce passion. They become taboos in many people lifes. Think, how many philosopher/scientist came out from religious times and how many philosopher/scientist came out from the time of freethought? How many religion based scholars/scientists/philosophers came out from religions hitory of 3 thausand years and how many scholars/scientists/philosophers came out from history of free thought that has been around for +/- 200 years?

 

[huzihaidao12]

Islam, like any other religion is an ideology. It commands people on every aspect of life. I don't hate or love Islam more than any other religion. There are very logical points in Islam and also there are some (imo) ridiculus But my personal view of religion can be summed up with one word: weakness of human will.

Most of the religions main rules command honor, morality, humility and standing up for what is right... Which can be easily thought and used in daily life by any moral and logical person. We don't need religions that are thausands of years old to dictate our life... Just because some of their ideas are logical doesn't mean that we should blind ourselves to their backwards ideologies...

Our topic is Islam so I am going to give an example from Islam,

Islam commands its believers that they should be moral, honest, helpful to others in need and they should not steal, lie, deceive, kill, abuse... Praticly, it commands its believers to be what most of the world percieve as a good human being. These can be easily thought by any human with average intelligent. The idea of a human with average intelligent have to look at books that has been written (or downed from heaven to earth, or whateve you believe in. I don't believe in it so to me it was written) thausand years ago rather than putting their own thoughs of what a decent human being should or should not do is saddening...

Religions (oppressive regimes too) in general hinder free thiniking and creativity. They make people believe in dogmas and frown upon any negative comments on them with fierce passion. They become taboos in many people lifes. Think, how many philosopher/scientist came out from religious times and how many philosopher/scientist came out from the time of freethought? How many religion based scholars/scientists/philosophers came out from religions hitory of 3 thausand years and how many scholars/scientists/philosophers came out from history of free thought that has been around for +/- 200 years?

In general, do you agree with the Muslim secularization?

---------- Post added at 07:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 AM ----------

Developereo, do you have any idea about the secularization of Muslims?

 

[Developereo]

Right, but why? Why it will happen in Iran and Turkey? Because those scholars who have good genes, while other countries do not?

Clearly, these scholars understand that science and technology are not "Western" concepts. In their rejection of Western cultural encroachment, they haven't thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

Islam, like any other religion is an ideology. It commands people on every aspect of life.

As far as I know, there is nothing in Islam that forbids scientific knowledge. In fact, Islam encourages exploration of the natural world (God's creation) as the highest form of worship. It is only the "power structure" that feels threatened by and discourages curiosity.

 

[Developereo]

Developereo, do you have any idea about the secularization of Muslims?

There is a debate within Muslim communities about the extent of Islam's role in daily life. Some people believe it should remain a personal matter; others believe it provides a complete framework all the way up to managing a diverse nation, including non-believers. Theoretically, Islam provides equality for non-believers, but in practice people always interpret things to suit their agenda.

 

[Deno]

In general, do you agree with the Muslim secularization?

---------- Post added at 07:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 AM ----------

Developereo, do you have any idea about the secularization of Muslims?

I think you can sum it up from what I wrote but yes, I belive in Secular society.

---------- Post added at 02:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 AM ----------

Clearly, these scholars understand that science and technology are not "Western" concepts. In their rejection of Western cultural encroachment, they haven't thrown out the baby with the bathwater.



As far as I know, there is nothing in Islam that forbids scientific knowledge. In fact, Islam encourages exploration of the natural world (God's creation) as the highest form of worship. It is only the "power structure" that feels threatened by and discourages curiosity.

ı didn't say Islam forbids scientific research, I said, religon hinder freethought and creaticity...

 

[huzihaidao12]

Clearly, these scholars understand that science and technology are not "Western" concepts. In their rejection of Western cultural encroachment, they haven't thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

Right, the key is Why only Iran and Turkish scholars do it? Other countries can not? As a society, Iran and Turkey, all the scholars are the "good", no a bad scholar, it is accidental? Or "Good" scholars can from the air in Iran and Turkish? It is not because of Iran and Turkey as a society already have immunity on the bad bacteria (the bad scholars)?

As far as I know, there is nothing in Islam that forbids scientific knowledge. In fact, Islam encourages exploration of the natural world (God's creation) as the highest form of worship. It is only the "power structure" that feels threatened by and discourages curiosity.

You see, you make Muslims as an idea that Islam is an idea, but Muslims are a community. Do not hide, I'm an atheist, but I also appreciate the idea of some of Islam, it is no problem, but that is a fact, the Muslim world is far as the backward than other industrialized countries in science and technology, since Islam encourages learning technology, why is it happen? Obviously, it is not ideological problems, it is a social problem, as a society, a country, the Muslims are still no use of industrial society. this is my personal point of view.

 

[Free Soul]

Firstly OP it is an interesting article, and I really appreciate that for a change someone hasn’t copy pasted a sea of text from somewhere. It is a nice inspired article presented in your words.
My take on this as follows, and i am trying to generalize societies, trends and change not just in term of Islam and the West.

A society would only claim to be a more evolved and rational once it does not curtail Dissent; for the reason that curtailing Dissent for a long time only adds to its ferocity.

The dilemma is that the above statement is a paradox, where not curtailing Dissent sometimes posses threat in short term, in long term it might serve the society better. This repeats itself in cycles where by sheer nature of things, norms of the society keep on swinging between two ends like a pendulum; more vicious are these swings in the start and over time it sort of rests in the centre. And then again our curiosity gets the better of us, as it is not in human nature to be stagnant.

It’s in human nature; it is built into us that we only appreciate things better once when we experience them ourselves.

It is a saying that - wise is he who learns from his own mistakes and does not repeat them, and fool is he who after committing a mistake repeats it.

I would say it is too much to ask from humans to learn from others’ mistakes and not commit them in the first place. In my opinion it only happens in Utopia. Inquisition is in humans by nature, a society after some generations starts questioning ideas that have become norms, that too for a number of reasons.
The ones who advocate norms and rules based on their experiences (themselves learnt from their mistakes) pass away (lets call them ‘advocators’), then the ones that adhered to the rules and norms for being witness to the advocators pass away (call them ‘adherers’) so and so forth, till the time comes when for the current crop the norms and rules do not carry much meaning –thus arises Dissent which later manifests itself causes a change that can either be good or bad, the ones who would learn for their experiences in the phase of Dissent and change become new ‘advocators’. This happens over and over again, ideas and societies thus evolve and over time take different shapes.

In my opinion rise and fall of civilizations, society and ideas naturally takes this pattern.

Eastern and Western societies very much polarized in their ideas and there is no clear good or bad side. It was too much to ask from Kamal Ataturk to have come up with the perfect solution, in my opinion Kamal Ataturk did the best he could at that time, may be later governments took to notion of curtailing religion bit too far after Ataturk –which they really didn’t need to do.


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Edit: typo fixed – ‘Decent’ fixed replaced with correct word ‘Dissent’

 

[huzihaidao12]

There is a debate within Muslim communities about the extent of Islam's role in daily life. Some people believe it should remain a personal matter; others believe it provides a complete framework all the way up to managing a diverse nation, including non-believers. Theoretically, Islam provides equality for non-believers, but in practice people always interpret things to suit their agenda.

A direct answer, not evade, friends, your views on secularization? Of course, if you do not want to answer, you can refuse, without any problems.

 

[Developereo]

ı didn't say Islam forbids scientific research, I said, religon hinder freethought and creaticity...

And my point is that religion per se does not hinder thought. It is the human power structure around the religion that discourages any challenge to its authority.

 

[Deno]

And my point is that religion per se does not hinder thought. It is the human power structure around the religion that discourages any challenge to its authority.

Secular societies do not have dogmas or taboos that can hinder creaticity and freethought but religons have...

 

[huzihaidao12]

This is my point of view, this is an adaptive, Islam and Muslims is a close and complex system, when the system needs to debug, it is sure a lot of old problems, and what problem? Only Muslims can answer and decisions.

 

[Developereo]

You see, you make Muslims as an idea that Islam is an idea, but Muslims are a community. Do not hide, I'm an atheist, but I also appreciate the idea of some of Islam, it is no problem, but that is a fact, the Muslim world is far as the backward than other industrialized countries in science and technology, since Islam encourages learning technology, why is it happen? Obviously, it is not ideological problems, it is a social problem, as a society, a country, the Muslims are still no use of industrial society. this is my personal point of view.

Right. The reason is that Islam provides a complete way of life so, when people claiming to be Islamic "scholars" tell people to shun worldly knowledge, then scientific learning dies. The only way to counter that is if an equally strong, or stronger, force -- i.e. political rulers -- counteract the message and encourage learning. In many (most?) Muslim countries, this civilian governance is very weak, so the religious "scholars" hold sway and discourage anything that may challenge their power.

A direct answer, not evade, friends, your views on secularization? Of course, if you do not want to answer, you can refuse, without any problems.

I already answered. There are two extremes of secularism: the European kind which tries to push religion out of sight, and the American kind which allows all religions to express themselves. Islam promotes the second type of secularism, although Muslim rulers do not always practice it.

 

[huzihaidao12]

I will go to bed, but I still did not meet, good-bye, I hope other members more to share your point of view.

 

[Developereo]

Secular societies do not have dogmas or taboos that can hinder creaticity and freethought but religons have...

Not true. Secular societies have their own set of taboos and restrictions. They may not have anything to do with religion, but they exist just the same. Just ask anyone who tries to do research on any politically incorrect topic.