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Islamic and Western thought in Turkey - A problem yet not solved

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Zulkarneyn

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I was reading an article written in 1947 by Adnan Adivar, one of the founding fathers of the modern republic. In his article he is summing up very thoroughly the errors made by both the Ottoman Empire and the modern Turkish Republic when dealing with religion and western thought. In the following i will try to give my two cents about the landscape which the article helped me understand better.

Firstly every Turkish person is according to me obligated to learn and understand his/her history if they want to process and discuss about these topics. We have seen several times in this forum (and many other internet pages/forums) what pure ignorance of fanticism of any kind leads to. Therefore i hope people will respect my thoughts and writings when i present them here.

Basically what Adivar is dealing with in his article is the core reason for the fall of Ottoman and the core problem for todays main political disagreements, as he perfectly concludes in the article
"Only when a reform of this kind (critical spirit and free information flow without any restrictions) comes about will Turkey be able to combine the streams of its cultural heritage and evolve an in-
tegrated intellectual movement"

One of the most important reasons to the fall of Ottoman Empire was its rejection of Western technology, Philosophy and science. The Ottoman simply refused to implement teachings being taught in European schools into its own lands. The reason for this was crystal clear: Why should we teach our kids European teachings which is full of kufr and may lead our younger generations into being kuffars? This was the biggest error made by the Ottoman in its time. To be unable to catch up to Europe and to stay in dark when Europe was experiencing the Age of Enlightenment and industrialization. The Ottoman was simply foolish to think that Islam defies science and philospophy which was being taught in Europe in a much more sophisticated level. We may mention the Tanzimat but that was simply too weak.

Let us fast forward to the Young Turks and modern Turkey. When Ataturk and his comrades signed the Treaty of Lausanne after the war of independence a bright new future awaited a new Turkey. Mustafa Kemal became the republic's first President and subsequently introduced many radical reforms with the aim of founding a new secular republic. But things didn't go perfect for Turkey and we never witnessed a true enlightenment and peace between the religious and secularist parties/groups in Turkey. Why did this happen?

This happened for a very good reason. After the establishment of the Republic and the introduction of secularism many people felt betrayed, let us talk straight people this is the reality. Ataturk by looking at the Ottoman empires past observed a pattern. He came to understand that by ignoring the West Ottoman was kept in the dark by foolish rulers who could not analyze the future and present of the state of their empire. Ataturk felt that by abolishing Islam from the system Turkey may lead to scientific and social revolutions. But as the Ottomans feared the West Ataturk feared Islam. The outcome was not exactly pretty for Turkish Republic as well.

Dear readers, the problem was that Ataturk feared Islam may corrupt the state once again because of its past. Yet the problem was not Islam, but it was the Ottoman rulers who tried to isloate the state completely from Western enlightenment movement. So to say they kept away science, philosphy, industry etc away from Ottoman because they thought these were not compatible with Islam. The same thing was done by the Turkish Republic but the opposite. Therefore the answer is simple. Once Islam is fully integrated into science, technology and philosphy we will truly evolve an integrated intellectual movement. I don't recommend that we should abolish the constitution, but we should be able to observe the clear faults done by our past leaders, that is both in the Turkish Republic and as well in the Ottoman Empire. One cannot embrace true enlightenment as long as certain thoughts and movements are kept in the dark. The Ottoman Empire's failure illustrates that perfectly. We should develop a sense of constructive criticism and make lessons of our past mistakes, that is both in the era of all the presidents in the Turkish Republic and in the era of Ottoman Empire. What i have learned being among Turkish youth for all my life (both intellectual University students and others) is that we lack that quality.

Some are afraid to criticize Ataturk, some are afraid to criticize the Ottoman. We should fear mindless fanaticism beyond everything else. Because the best friend is the one who tells right from wrong even though it might hurt you.

Written by Zulkarneyn
 
Good article, it validated some of my thoughts, the way of Turkey is the opposite and Iran. Two methods and two directions, but the two results? May, however, not necessarily.In any case thank you article.
 
Zulkarneyn, sir, I can ask your point of view on this article? Or any other Turkish members?
 
It is my pleasure

I wrote it myself. So the point of view expressed is by me :)
 
It is my pleasure

I wrote it myself. So the point of view expressed is by me :)

^^ no more ?

I misunderstood, I thought it was a reference, I am sorry.

---------- Post added at 03:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 AM ----------

In fact, sir, your point of view is right(now), or it may be wrong(future), only time will tell, which is a natural course of history? It is always interesting and exciting to see when it really happened.
 
Really good article, it really help some of my ideas, although some of the points I do not agree, but in general I agree with you most of the points, although it has some other things more interesting.

---------- Post added at 04:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 AM ----------

I was reading an article written in 1947 by Adnan Adivar

It can be found in the network? Can you give me the connection on it, sir?
 
Very well written Zulkarneyn. *Thumbs Up*

I totally agree with you. Islam is never a problem, it's always the followers, I know Turks have a very high image of Attaturk and we, Pakistanis respect him for that, but I and many other would also argue and question his secularization of Turkey. The abolishing of Khilafah had a very negative effect on the Muslim world at large.

Anyways, I am sure, we can learn from past mistakes. Islam is and will always be our key to success, history proves that!
 
Really good article, it really help some of my ideas, although some of the points I do not agree, but in general I agree with you most of the points, although it has some other things more interesting.

---------- Post added at 04:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 AM ----------

I was reading an article written in 1947 by Adnan Adivar

It can be found in the network? Can you give me the connection on it, sir?

Sure, if you have access to jstor.org you can find it there it is called "Islamic and Western Thought in Turkey". If you can't find it just pm me your email and i will gladly send it.
 
As a ritual, as a Chinese, needs to respond, a short view.

As the only and the best two way for Muslims in the industrial era, Iran and Turkey, the way of Turkey's approach is unstable than Iran, the way of iran's approach , although it is more stable, but the crisis in the country vitality.

This is a small return for a good article ^ ^

---------- Post added at 04:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 AM ----------

Sure, if you have access to jstor.org you can find it there it is called "Islamic and Western Thought in Turkey". If you can't find it just pm me your email and i will gladly send it.

Thank you very much, I will try to find out.
 
for more, sir, a question, you think that what is "secular" of Muslim?

---------- Post added at 04:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 AM ----------

Very well written Zulkarneyn. *Thumbs Up*

I totally agree with you. Islam is never a problem, it's always the followers, I know Turks have a very high image of Attaturk and we, Pakistanis respect him for that, but I and many other would also argue and question his secularization of Turkey. The abolishing of Khilafah had a very negative effect on the Muslim world at large.

Anyways, I am sure, we can learn from past mistakes. Islam is and will always be our key to success, history proves that!

Very sorry, I think Muslim friends should go look at the history of China, my feeling is more intense now.
 
for more, sir, a question, you think that what is "secular" of Muslim?

---------- Post added at 04:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 AM ----------



Very sorry, I think Muslim friends should go look at the history of China, my feeling is more intense now.

My honest opinion on this matter is that Muslims should not fear to live under the law of Quran if circumstances allow it. Today in the UK Jews have jewish courts. There is nothing wrong with that, and i personally think the country should allow that. The problem in Turkey, i think, is that Muslim women have been restricted in entering universities just because they wear headscarf (hijab), that is not acceptable under no circumstances, especially if that country is majority Muslim. I could write much more on that matter but i am pretty tired at the moment. We can continue this discussion later...
 
My honest opinion on this matter is that Muslims should not fear to live under the law of Quran if circumstances allow it. Today in the UK Jews have jewish courts. There is nothing wrong with that, and i personally think the country should allow that. The problem in Turkey, i think, is that Muslim women have been restricted in entering universities just because they wear headscarf (hijab), that is not acceptable under no circumstances, especially if that country is majority Muslim. I could write much more on that matter but i am pretty tired at the moment. We can continue this discussion later...

Agree, but, sir, you can make a definition in what is "secular" of Muslim?

I changed the problem, a secular country for Muslims, what it is?

Sorry, I expect you to come back.
 
There is no any other Turkish members have any thoughts on this article?
 
I think a secular Muslim is someone who can accept that the state itself is non-religious and rules on behalf of all religions, ethnics etc and does not put emphasis on one of those. Religion is private, thats my idea of a secular-Muslim.

What I didn't like is that there was no clear commitment from Zulkarneyn to democracy. He also argues in favor of Sharia which is not compatible with the our constitution or democracy.

I dont see what's the problem with secularism (generally; this is not directed at Zulkarneyn) , you can practice your religion as free as you want. The problem is very religious people will put their noses in the lifes of others: You cant do that, thats harram etc. ,these people they will put others under pressure for being different until they bend and do as they want or people get hurt.

I would also like to ask Zulkarneyn whether he thinks that Science (which you're apparently supporting) is compatible with religion.

Also Zulkarneyn if we introduce sharia-law for Muslim, Jewish laws for Jews etc which law will be used for non-religious people? Which law will be used if a Muslim steals something from a Christian? Chaos.

Our constitution is not perfect and I have faith in the revision that currently in work. Our constitution will grant everyone its rights and make sure that no one will put his nose in your business and you dont put yours in his. The constitution will (and is) be universal and apply to everyone.
 
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