Islamic and Western thought in Turkey - A problem yet not solved

[Pakistanisage]

I reject the thought that somehow Islam and modern thought are mutually exclusive. Islam is not a backward religion and if it seems to be that way is because educated people have left the Islam for Illiterate Mullahs to define. As more Scientist, Engineers, Physicians and Socialogist involve themselves in religious affairs, the Beauty and Wisdom of Islam will manifest itself.

 

[huzihaidao12]

I think a secular Muslim is someone who can accept that the state itself is non-religious and rules on behalf of all religions, ethnics etc and does not put emphasis on one of those. Religion is private, thats my idea of a secular-Muslim.What I didn't like is that there was no clear commitment from Zulkarneyn to democracy. He also argues in favor of Sharia which is not compatible with the our constitution or democracy.

I dont see what's the problem with secularism (generally; this is not directed at Zulkarneyn) , you can practice your religion as free as you want. The problem is very religious people will put their noses in the lifes of others: You cant do that, thats harram etc. ,these people they will put others under pressure for being different until they bend and do as they want or people get hurt.

I would also like to ask Zulkarneyn whether he thinks that Science (which you're apparently supporting) is compatible with religion.

Also Zulkarneyn if we introduce sharia-law for Muslim, Jewish laws for Jews etc which law will be used for non-religious people? Which law will be used if a Muslim steals something from a Christian? Chaos.

Our constitution is not perfect and I have faith in the revision that currently in work. Our constitution will grant everyone its rights and make sure that no one will put his nose in your business and you dont put yours in his. The constitution will (and is) be universal and apply to everyone.

Sir, I accepted it.

---------- Post added at 05:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 AM ----------

I reject the thought that somehow Islam and modern thought are mutually exclusive. Islam is not a backward religion and if it seems to be that way is because educated people have left the Islam for Illiterate Mullahs to define. As more Scientist, Engineers, Physicians and Socialogist involve themselves in religious affairs, the Beauty and Wisdom of Islam will manifest itself.

I also accepted it. Very classic two points of view for you and what.

 

[Rusty]

People also forget, or chose to forget, that the Modern world, with all the science and tech are all based on Islamic science in our golden age. Islam has produced some of the best scientists and thinkers in the history of humanity. The problem now is that every uneducated guy with a beard presents himself to be a scholar and misguides the uneducated masses. They key to Islamic revival is education in every field.

 

[huzihaidao12]

People also forget, or chose to forget, that the Modern world, with all the science and tech are all based on Islamic science in our golden age. Islam has produced some of the best scientists and thinkers in the history of humanity. The problem now is that every uneducated guy with a beard presents himself to be a scholar and misguides the uneducated masses. They key to Islamic revival is education in every field.

How to say? In our view, in fact, Islam has all the advantages of combination from other religions, but it only occurred in the agricultural era, industrial era, it means too much different, in my opinion, no responsibility, thank you, the Muslim world is still not suited to the era of industrialization, the best two countries are Iran and Turkey. but why these two countries is the best, the results (until now) and process, it is interesting enough.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Developereo,since you are here, I was able to have a special name? What about your point of view?

 

[Developereo]

As people have pointed out the problem is not Islam, but "Islamic" scholars.

The core problem is the incompatibility between modern thought which demands independent thinking and skepticism, v/s dogmatic Islamic theocracy, which demands blind, unquestioning obedience. Modernity is a threat to the mullah's power structure, not Islam. In fact, of all the religions, Islam specifically instructs us that the only authority is Allah -- all others are mortal. Even the Prophet (pbuh).

 

[huzihaidao12]

As people have pointed out the problem is not Islam, but "Islamic" scholars.

The core problem is the incompatibility between modern thought which demands independent thinking and skepticism, v/s dogmatic Islamic theocracy, which demands blind, unquestioning obedience. Modernity is a threat to the mullah's power structure, not Islam. In fact, of all the religions, Islam specifically instructs us that the only authority is Allah -- all others are mortal. Even the Prophet (pbuh).

If Islam is just an idea, then it is simple enough, but Islam is a society, a society in many aspects, including academics, but academics is only one point. A social have a problem, it certainly happened problem in a or some parts of society, but, I mean that if a society as a whole, can not adapt to some things, for example, can not adapt to the industrial age (in the development and competition), it is difficult to judge what is right, What is wrong, because it is unlikely all wrong, all right, which is a system debugging.

Incidentally, I agree with your point of view, Muslim scholars have some problems, but not just this point.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Iran and Turkey are two different testing method, the closest way for the Muslim world in the industrial era. The way they are different and interesting, I caught some things today.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Although the Muslim member is good, I also want to see some point of view of members of the Turkish and Iran. Please share your point of view, thank you.

 

[Developereo]

If Islam is just an idea, then it is simple enough, but Islam is a society, a society in many aspects, including academics, but academics is only one point. A social have a problem, it certainly happened problem in a or some parts of society, but, I mean that if a society as a whole, can not adapt to some things, for example, can not adapt to the industrial age (in the development and competition), it is difficult to judge what is right, What is wrong, because it is unlikely all wrong, all right, which is a system debugging.

Incidentally, I agree with your point of view, Muslim scholars have some problems, but not just this point.

I am not an Islamic scholar but, even in Islam, there are different interpretations. Some people believe that the only requirements are what is in the Qur'an because that -- and ONLY that -- is the word of God. Everything else is man-made. Others put a lot of emphasis on tradition, culture, the hadiths, etc. It is these latter interpretations which cause problems by elevating human and cultural activities to the level of "divine commandments" or farz.

As to your comparison of Turkey and Iran, the differences are perhaps not as stark as it might seem. Both countries are pragmatic and understand the importance of science; both cultures have deep roots appreciating the importance of (worldly) knowledge.

 

[huzihaidao12]

I am not an Islamic scholar but, even in Islam, there are different interpretations. Some people believe that the only requirements are what is in the Qur'an because that -- and ONLY that -- is the word of God. Everything else is man-made. Others put a lot of emphasis on tradition, culture, the hadiths, etc. It is these latter interpretations which cause problems by elevating human and cultural activities to the level of "divine commandments" or farz.

As to your comparison of Turkey and Iran, the differences are perhaps not as stark as it might seem. Both countries are pragmatic and understand the importance of science; both cultures have deep roots appreciating the importance of (worldly) knowledge.

Although it is true and important, but it is not key point, friend. Iran and Turkey have many scholars, and why they succeeded to skip this trap?

Key lies in the reasons , why they can develop the technology and education, because their leaders are wise, other leaders of Muslim nations all are fools? Never, in fact, technological and cultural development also need some necessary material conditions, time and money accumulation, the real question is, why they can successfully develop science, technology and modern education, but other Muslim countries can not? key is adaptability. Muslims as a nation (social) how to adapt to the industrial age (the realization of his development in the competition)?

 

[Developereo]

Although it is true and important, but it is not key point, friend. Iran and Turkey have many scholars, and why they succeeded to skip this trap?

Yes. that is a good observation.

Iranian mullahs are very strict and promote all sorts of restrictions on social conduct, but they have not put the brakes on scientific learning. Turkey's Islamic revival challenges the social restrictions imposed by the secularists, but they too understand that scientific learning must be maintained.

 

[oct605032048]

Is it so hard to let go the old Ottoman.

Oh yes, it is so hard especially when Turkey find more muscle on its arm while is old pal Greece is in a bad shape.

 

[huzihaidao12]

A proposal in good faith, friends, look at the history of China (1840-1949), take a look at how we spend the abyss, we are in what a kind of suffering, you will find that it really is not a religion, but adaptability, the Chinese civilization is how to adapt to the industrial era.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Yes. that is a good observation.

Iranian mullahs are very strict and promote all sorts of restrictions on social conduct, but they have not put the brakes on scientific learning. Turkey's Islamic revival challenges the social restrictions imposed by the secularists, but they too understand that scientific learning must be maintained.

Right, but why? Why it will happen in Iran and Turkey? Because those scholars who have good genes, while other countries do not?