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سال 2018 بود که پوتین از تست موشک هایپرسونیک کنیژال با برد 2 هزار کیلومتر و سرعت 10 ماخ خبر داد . کنژال نمونه تغییر یافته موشک اسکندر با برد 500 km هست که برای پرتاب از هواپیما تغییراتی در اون اعمال کردن . اگر موشک کنژال​
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که توسط جنگنده میگ 31 حمل میشه ، از ارتفاع 18 km و سرعت 2.5 ماخ پرتاب بشه به بیشینه برد 2 هزار کیلومتر و سرعت 10 ماخ دست پیدا میکنه و به دلیل مسیر پروازی درون جوی و منحنی ش از تور پدافندهای دفاع بالستیک عبور میکنه و مقابله باهاش بسیار سخت خواهد بود . خب اما موشک رعد 500 .
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موشک رعد 500 با برد مشابه موشک اسکندر و با وزن کمتر گزینه مناسبی برای انجام نقش بالستیک هواپرتاب ایرانی هست
وزن 1.8 تن

قطر 0.5 متر

سوخت جامد

دقت 30 متر

سرعت برخورد +5 ماخ

کلاهک 400 kg حالا اگه همین موشک رو از ارتفاع 30 km و با سرعت 3 ماخ پرتاب کنیم چه اتفاقی میافته

نیروی هوایی که کاملا مشخصه . همچین پرنده ایی
در اختیار نداریم ولی در مقابل چند صد تیر موشک قدیمی داریم . مدل های اولیه شهاب 3 برای رسیدن به ارتفاع 350 km با یک کلاهک 1 تنی 13 تن سوخت مصرف میکنن . با حذف 6 تن از وزن سوخت و افزودن یک کپسول 6 تنی حامل 3 تیر موشک رعد ، موشک میتونه
به سادگی تا ارتفاع30 km بالا بره و اونجا با یه مانور تغییر زاویه حرکت هر سه موشک از کپسول خارج بشن و موتور هاشون استارت بزنه . در این حالت همان 3 کلاهک که تقریبا 1.2 تن وزن دارند به صورت هایپرسونیک و در برد 2000 km به هدف برخورد می کنند .

با حساب هزینه 50 هزار دلاری هر موشک​

https://twitter.com/x/status/1352387888986644482
 
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I believe that if Iran ends up buying any fighter aircrafts from China, it will most likely be the J-11 over the J-10. It's a difficult choice to make between China and Russia.

The Chinese claim that they have now matched the Russians in terms of engine capability, however what they could export in mass to Iran is another matter completely. Chinese are allegedly far ahead of Russians in avionics, radar, etc

On top of a fighter jet, Iran also needs a stealth fighter. The SU-57 or J-20 would both be great choices. Then there's the need for replacing Iran's aging heavy transport planes like the C-130 among others and also helicopters, tank components, ifv, apc technology, etc.

Iran should try to make both sides outbid/compete with each other since it will be a decent sized order that both China and Russia would want, especially Russia with its economic woes. For Russia to lose this contract would really be a blow to Russian prestige. It would actually be a huge coup for the Chinese weapons industry, showing the world that they have truly, finally overtaken Russia.

China is a closer economic ally but Russia is a closer military ally to Iran and might feel smitten if Iran choices China, so there are quite a few variables in this equation.

Darius77 said:
Russia is a not a dependable partner. It stiffed Iran for 10 years over the antiquated S-300 and the Zionists have too much control over Putin as the regular Israeli strikes on Syria have amply demonstrated.

Iran should be seriously looking at Chinese J-10B which is adequate for its localized needs, considering the robust missile capability. Iran is now quite well integrated with Chinese economic and geo-strategic initiatives like the One Belt, so broadening a alliance with PRC should be logical focus. Also strengtheing defence ties with DPRK should be a priority. Iran has enough experience in aircraft overhauling to come up with a medium to heavyweight twin engined fighter in the F-14 class but with 4th gen avionics and weaponry.
Click to expand...
 
VEVAK said:
You sitting 70's era tech and a sub that despite having such an expensive hall and nuclear propulsion hasn't stood the test of time and every single one of them have gotten retired VS lets say the Kilo at approximately the same size and half the speed that's still being produced today.... why do you think that is? There is no reason for us to follow the mistakes of others!
Click to expand...
Alfa is older and they had problem with maintaining the reactor which was too advance for its time they never hadd problem with hull. Probably the only subb they didnt have oroblem with its hull. By the way alfa is at least a decade older than kilo.
 
sha ah said:
I believe that if Iran ends up buying any fighter aircrafts from China, it will most likely be the J-11 over the J-10. It's a difficult choice to make between China and Russia.

The Chinese claim that they have now matched the Russians in terms of engine capability, however what they could export in mass to Iran is another matter completely. Chinese are allegedly far ahead of Russians in avionics, radar, etc

On top of a fighter jet, Iran also needs a stealth fighter. The SU-57 or J-20 would both be great choices. Then there's the need for replacing Iran's aging heavy transport planes like the C-130 among others and also helicopters, tank components, ifv, apc technology, etc.

Iran should try to make both sides outbid/compete with each other since it will be a decent sized order that both China and Russia would want, especially Russia with its economic woes. For Russia to lose this contract would really be a blow to Russian prestige. It would actually be a huge coup for the Chinese weapons industry, showing the world that they have truly, finally overtaken Russia.

China is a closer economic ally but Russia is a closer military ally to Iran and might feel smitten if Iran choices China, so there are quite a few variables in this equation.
Click to expand...
That sounds like a good plan. Let's suppose Iran invests 30-40 billion dollar on acquiring your mentioned list in a period of 5-10 years from now on. It reminds of Indian purchasing of Russian military hardware. Btw, we can invest this amount of cash on local production of a national fighter aircraft, that being said, when you successfuly develop a turbofan engine you can also use the technology in other sectors such as turning the engine to a turboprop/turboshaft/ramjet/scramjet etc for helos, transport and even civilian aircrafts, missiles etc. Once you develop it then you have done the hard part of the job. We are engaged in that sector of R&D, i am sure that we gonna hear good news of a national engine but cannot exactly say when and where. No one can specify a date for it, one thing for sure, when its done even if Russia and China refuse to sell us a capable fighter no one in Iran would give a hoot about.
 
Hack-Hook said:
Alfa is older and they had problem with maintaining the reactor which was too advance for its time they never hadd problem with hull. Probably the only subb they didnt have oroblem with its hull. By the way alfa is at least a decade older than kilo.
Click to expand...

Your mistaken. They had a problems with the Hull from the start which they claim to have corrected. At least that's what Wikipedia says.... I honestly don't know much about that sub!
However, it's clear to me that the cost of production, overhaul and maintenance was clearly too burdensome and expensive.
Just ask yourself why? If the problem was the reactor then why did they stop using Ti hulls?
And the answer would be the same as the one i gave you. There are cheaper less expensive alternatives to carry out weight reduction. And if the cost benefit analysis of such an over priced hull made sense the Russians would have kept on improving on those type of subs.
So the problem with the use of Ti isn't that it's not strong enough or that you couldn't potentially build a good sub around them, it's that it's too expensive to work with for it to make sense.


And a fiscally conservative military like Iran would have to be insane to take on such a project. At least not until a new method of production is developed....
If for the cost of producing one Alfa class hull (Just hull) you could potentially (As none scientific example) produce 20 Kilo class hulls would you still do it?
 
To give an idea of America's aerospace mass production capability.

B-2 spirit:
1611505631447.png


F-35:

1611505650361.png


In order to reach such a level, naturally you are required to spend a great effort in building up your underlying mass production teams, infrastructures, supply chains etc. Contrary to what people may think, you certainly do not need to have the $700billions budget of the Americans to produce something like this. Iran is quite unique in the sense that it produces high level products but at vastly cheaper prices relative to the likes of US. For this discussion, Let us assume Iran's defence budget is $20 billion, you cannot do a 1:1 comparison to the US and say US's budget is 35x that of Iran's. Why? because obviously $1 in Iran gets you much more than $1 in the US. So let me assure members that Iran is more than capable of producing mass production line for fighter jets, budget is a factor but not as much as a problem as people think. What is more important is the desire to go down this route and the proper management teams.

I recall the interview with head of IRIAF who said he visited the production facility of Eurofighter Typhoon and he made the statement Iran's production facility are much better. I have no doubt Iran is much more advanced in this sector than we perceive. Get the IRGC, Airforce; Vezarate Defah and danesh bonyad companies together with the correct management and they will produce the same sort of impressive capability in airforce that you see in its missiles, UAVs, air defence etc.
 
VEVAK said:
Your mistaken. They had a problems with the Hull from the start which they claim to have corrected. At least that's what Wikipedia says.... I honestly don't know much about that sub!
However, it's clear to me that the cost of production, overhaul and maintenance was clearly too burdensome and expensive.
Just ask yourself why? If the problem was the reactor then why did they stop using Ti hulls?
And the answer would be the same as the one i gave you. There are cheaper less expensive alternatives to carry out weight reduction. And if the cost benefit analysis of such an over priced hull made sense the Russians would have kept on improving on those type of subs.
So the problem with the use of Ti isn't that it's not strong enough or that you couldn't potentially build a good sub around them, it's that it's too expensive to work with for it to make sense.


And a fiscally conservative military like Iran would have to be insane to take on such a project. At least not until a new method of production is developed....
If for the cost of producing one Alfa class hull (Just hull) you could potentially (As none scientific example) produce 20 Kilo class hulls would you still do it?
Click to expand...
non of their other subs can go as deep as that sub and non are as maneuverable as that sub.
the problem with that sub was its lack of modularity and relying on complex facility when it was at shore.
another problem was at the time for welding titanium parts they had to use special chamber filled with inert gases which is very hard , todays with new welding technologies there is no such need (and if I'm not wrong about 2-3 years go our researchers at least in lab scale showed the same technics for welding Aluminum)
right now we export our titanium as raw material even before turning it into metal . its good opportunities to stop doing that

its the new technique I was talking about
and we are part of the few countries which have the ability to use such technique at least for aluminum , we just need to made some change to our technique to be applicable to titanium.
we managed to design and build cold welding machine in Pardis Technology Park in 1395

another reason that ussr didn't follow that path is because they had limited amount of titanium compared to them we have nine time more titanium only in sistan and baluchistan and the titanium there is of higher concentrate than the mines in Ural area which is the source of USSR titanium


and about titanium price , Aerospace grade titanium is 9-10 time more expensive than steel but marine grade titanium is only about 3 time more expensive
 
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VEVAK said:
Just ask yourself why? If the problem was the reactor then why did they stop using Ti hulls?
Click to expand...
they didn't they built another one and it was supposed to be the next generation of USSR nuclear submarines but well accident in reactor compartment result in it to sank and after that Cold war ended and Russian Navy fall in disarray
military.wikia.org

Soviet submarine K-278 Komsomolets

K-278 Komsomolets was the only Project 685 Plavnik (Плавник, meaning "fin", also known by its NATO reporting name of "Mike"-class) nuclear-powered attack submarine of the Soviet Navy. On August 4, 1984 K-278 reached a record submergence depth of 1,020 meters, in Norwegian Sea.[1] The boat sank...
military.wikia.org military.wikia.org
 
Hack-Hook said:
non of their other subs can go as deep as that sub and non are as maneuverable as that sub.
the problem with that sub was its lack of modularity and relying on complex facility when it was at shore.
another problem was at the time for welding titanium parts they had to use special chamber filled with inert gases which is very hard , todays with new welding technologies there is no such need (and if I'm not wrong about 2-3 years go our researchers at least in lab scale showed the same technics for welding Aluminum)
right now we export our titanium as raw material even before turning it into metal . its good opportunities to stop doing that

its the new technique I was talking about
and we are part of the few countries which have the ability to use such technique at least for aluminum , we just need to made some change to our technique to be applicable to titanium.
we managed to design and build cold welding machine in Pardis Technology Park in 1395

another reason that ussr didn't follow that path is because they had limited amount of titanium compared to them we have nine time more titanium only in sistan and baluchistan and the titanium there is of higher concentrate than the mines in Ural area which is the source of USSR titanium


and about titanium price , Aerospace grade titanium is 9-10 time more expensive than steel but marine grade titanium is only about 3 time more expensive
Click to expand...

Deepest diving Russian sub is the Oscar class then the Seara class that also has Ti hull

As I told you working with Titanium is rather complicated which makes production, overhaul and hull repair costly and at the same time unlike Aircrafts you have alternatives. So it's not ideal for Iran at least not yet and priority needs to be Aircraft.
As for subs, I'd be happy if Iran simply improves on the Kilo for now. FYI German Type 209 at 490meter have higher test depth capability than the Alfa class that apparently maxes out at only 350 meter.
If the trade off is 20 subs vs 1 for just 100meter and speed of 40kph vs 70kph I'd go with the 20 subs...


I know very well that Iran has a rather high untapped Ti potential and not just in Sistan Baluchestan that's why it's so frustrating that they haven't utilized it and it's why I keep bringing it up!
 

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