Indian Navy Begins Search For New Large Landing Ships

[Kinetic]

As i said earlier only San Antonio class fits the requirements of IN!!! They floated the tender for one seller only. SN class is good but too costly.

 

[jha]

As i said earlier only San Antonio class fits the requirements of IN!!! They floated the tender for one seller only. SN class is good but too costly.

Yes.. We can probably get 5 smaller South korea designed LPDs for cost of one of these..Plus too much space to plant bugs.

 

[Archie]

As i said earlier only San Antonio class fits the requirements of IN!!! They floated the tender for one seller only. SN class is good but too costly.

Sirji u are correct only the San Antonio class actually satisfies ALL the requirement of the RFI , rest of the ships are just more of LHD than a full blown LPD
Minstral and Dokdo class have laid more stress on 15-16 Helicopters which they can carry rather than the expeditionary strike force which they can carry

While Dokdo class can carry 720 marines apart from the ships crew , Minstral class can only carry 450 troops for long term deployment which can double to 900 for short durations
Dokdo class also carries 6 MBT , while Mistral class can carry upto 40 MBT

Compared to Dokdo and Mistral , San antonio class stresses more towards the Marine expeditionary force than Helicopters

While it can carry 4 Heavy Lift Helicopters like chinook or as many as 8 Ocean Hawk ASW Helicopters
It also carries as many as 100 MBT s , 17 LCAC and Expeditionary fighting crafts
The ship carries a complement of 800 Marines apart from 350 crew members , however i am sure that Indian Navy can increase the number of troops to 1200 , by getting rid of certain luxuries like Indoor Basket ball court and the 100 seater Movie theater

However one thing that goes against San antonio class is its Price tag
Now US Navy intends to buy 10 of these ships at the cost of 12 Billion USD

So 4 of these ships could cost Indian Navy at least 5 Billion USD which is more than what GOI has allotted for 4 ships ,which is 4 Billion USD
My guess is Mistral class is the best compromise coz it cost 750 Million USD each , and we will be able to accomodate a 900 strong marine force and 40 MBT to support the operation apart from a complement of 15 Helicopters

 

[Kinetic]

Sirji u are correct only the San Antonio class actually satisfies ALL the requirement of the RFI , rest of the ships are just more of LHD than a full blown LPD
Minstral and Dokdo class have laid more stress on 15-16 Helicopters which they can carry rather than the expeditionary strike force which they can carry

While Dokdo class can carry 720 marines apart from the ships crew , Minstral class can only carry 450 troops for long term deployment which can double to 900 for short durations
Dokdo class also carries 6 MBT , while Mistral class can carry upto 40 MBT

Compared to Dokdo and Mistral , San antonio class stresses more towards the Marine expeditionary force than Helicopters

While it can carry 4 Heavy Lift Helicopters like chinook or as many as 8 Ocean Hawk ASW Helicopters
It also carries as many as 100 MBT s , 17 LCAC and Expeditionary fighting crafts
The ship carries a complement of 800 Marines apart from 350 crew members , however i am sure that Indian Navy can increase the number of troops to 1200 , by getting rid of certain luxuries like Indoor Basket ball court and the 100 seater Movie theater

However one thing that goes against San antonio class is its Price tag
Now US Navy intends to buy 10 of these ships at the cost of 12 Billion USD

So 4 of these ships could cost Indian Navy at least 5 Billion USD which is more than what GOI has allotted for 4 ships ,which is 4 Billion USD
My guess is Mistral class is the best compromise coz it cost 750 Million USD each , and we will be able to accomodate a 900 strong marine force and 40 MBT to support the operation apart from a complement of 15 Helicopters

You and me understood this but don't know what happened to the armed forces. No wonder, San Antonio is a beast with lots of capabilities, sensors and systems as we can see from the pics but the cost is just too much for a LPD, even for its large size. Only US can afford them. Same things happened for C-17 Globemaster-III. I know US has most hi-tech weapons and they may be better than others but not for us.


Single LPD costing more than the aircraft carrier IAC-1 India building!!!

 

[Kinetic]

Yes.. We can probably get 5 smaller South korea designed LPDs for cost of one of these...

Yes we can, there are far better options for us. There is no reason for not choosing Dokdo or Mistral.

Plus too much space to plant bugs

This one area I am happy with the armed forces. They will not let this happen.

 

[Archie]

San Antonio class Weighs 26500 Ton Full Load , and it is the most advance LPD today , and weighs more than some Aircraft carriers

However , like i said earlier , it i too expensive , We can Probably get 2 Dokdo class LHD weighing around 18000 Ton full load , for the price of one San Antonio class LPD

However Dokdo Lacks the Vehicle carrying capacity of San antonio , So my guess is that Mistral class costing 750 Million USD each is the best bet
And we can make changes within the minstral to carry 900 troops on long term deployment

 

[sancho]

If you can make aircraft carriers indigenously I doubt you would need help on a LPD or LHD.

Its like saying you need help on Algebra when you have already mastered Calculus. Doesn't really make any sense at all.

Or you simply missed where the important difference lies!

Well deck

A well deck or well dock is a hangar-like deck located at the waterline in the stern of some amphibious warfare ships. By taking on water the ship can lower its stern, flooding the well deck and allowing boats and amphibious landing craft to dock within the ship. This facilitates moving cargo between the ship and smaller craft during amphibious operations.[1] Well decks are a feature of modern types of amphibious warfare ship such as the amphibious transport dock, dock landing ship and Landing Helicopter Dock.

Well deck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So this is the capability that we don't have yet and want to add with a licence production of a foreign design. The advantages should be obvious, ToT, no delays because lack of development stage, external consultancy and already available parts...

As i said earlier only San Antonio class fits the requirements of IN!!! They floated the tender for one seller only. SN class is good but too costly.

Hi Kinetic, here are some more that should fit:

Albion class landing platform dock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rotterdam class amphibious transport dock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ōsumi class LST - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The length is given in the RFI with approx 200m, so can be slightly longer, lor shorter and latest vessels are build in modules, which makes it easy to just add another one to make it longer.

Regarding the mistral class, you know that I also think we should go for LHDs instead of LPDs, but I am sure that if LHDs are not allowed in the competition, DCNS will simply offer an LPD, based on the Mistrall class!
The size fits to our requirments, so the main difference has to be a different deck layout, which shouldn't be a problem for them.
Here are some pics from the EURONAVAL show last year, where you can see models of the Mistral class, with DCNS latest logistic vessel, the Brave class:

As you can see, they just need to offer the Mistral class with the hangar and landing deck of the Brave class. With the experience of DCNS on the Indian market, ToT, licence production, even customisation shouldn't be a problem at all.
Similar can be said about the other European alternatives, but if the US will allow licence production of one of their newest vessels is imo doubtful, but that depends on how important a real strategic relation with India would be to them.

 

[Kinetic]

^^ Sancho, Albion is an old design, Rotterdam fits the eligibility but I have doubt India will go to Netherlands or Osumi from Japan. Also they are not as advanced as San Antonio. As you know Indian armed forces always want the best of the best.

DCNS will surely offer a LPD based on Mistral. That is very much possible but still SA class suites the RFI more. The RFI says that the new LPD should be derived from a 'proven LPD' to meet the requirements of IN. You might also noticed recently Northrop and Pipavav signed a MoU.

 

[sancho]

^^ Sancho, Albion is an old design, Rotterdam fits the eligibility but I have doubt India will go to Netherlands or Osumi from Japan. Also they are not as advanced as San Antonio. As you know Indian armed forces always want the best of the best.

DCNS will surely offer a LPD based on Mistral. That is very much possible but still SA class suites the RFI more. The RFI says that the new LPD should be derived from a 'proven LPD' to meet the requirements of IN. You might also noticed recently Northrop and Pipavav signed a MoU.

Rotterdam class might be from the Netherlands, but developed with other countries as well:

Galicia class landing platform dock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also why do you think Albion class is old? First comissioned 2003, I think they could have even a good chance with the UK in bad shape and the close relations to us. San Antinio class, as I said, I have some doubts about licence production rights and the costs of course and in regard to Mistral, changing the deck layout says nothing about if it's proven or not right?
However, in this case I would go definitely for the cheapest solution, because these vessels don't have to be advanced in any terms, by the fact that they will see operational service only in desaster relief missions during peace and during war times they will work alongside a carrier group, which means there is no point in paying high prices for advanced techs and capabilties.

 

[angeldemon_007]

You missed the keyword LPD..

Yeah, actually IN in the beginning was looking for an LPD as they were impressed by INS Jalashwa capacity, but later on their demands changed and now it seems an LHD will suite for what they are asking. Now there are even reports that navy will chose LHD (but i don't think we can trust that report). Also their are around 8 replies to this tender and most of them are LHD. I posted the names of all 8 in the beginning.

I'm sorry what happened to anthony's statement where he said all future warships will be indigenous?

Sorry to disappoint you but i don't think he meant that instantaneously and also every country follow this method even US. These ship will be built in our shipyards and not will be directly purchased from the vendor. Our P75I, P17A, P28A all will follow somehow similar pattern.

If anything, our aircraft carrier building experience will tremendously aid the LPD programme. It's high time we begin building cheap local weaponry in large numbers instead of spending crazy amounts

If this project is given to Cochin Shipyard then only we could get some benefit but i don't think it is this big. Also, our shipyards are still not that good. None of the shipyards have the capacity of modular designing yet. Apart from this no automation and all. We really need to modernize them first. Only the shipyards which are really capable like Pipavav and LnT, they are not getting projects. Its good that now a small improvement is there. By 2011-2012 MDL and GRSE will have the capacity for modular designing.

As i said earlier only San Antonio class fits the requirements of IN!!!

Actually it is not meeting the requirements :
1) Length of the ship should not be more than 200m while that of San Antonio Class is 208m.
2) Also IN is clear that ship must be able to carry more helicopters (more than 6 which is the capacity of INS Jalashwa) which also does not suite San Antonio class which can handle upto 4 helicopters.

Also we are forgetting its a buy and make category deal and which i don't think US will allow.
Only Dokdo class and French Mistral suites.

Also they are not as advanced as San Antonio.

What is so advanced in San Antonio ?? I mean if you are talking about sensors or communication things then i should remind you we are not getting them without signing agreements, so in the end it would BEL again. Not to mention, the shipyards in Europe are actually much better than US.

 

[sancho]

Actually it is not meeting the requirements :
1) Length of the ship should not be more than 200m while that of San Antonio Class is 208m.
2) Also IN is clear that ship must be able to carry more helicopters (more than 6 which is the capacity of INS Jalashwa) which also does not suite San Antonio class which can handle upto 4 helicopters.

Also we are forgetting its a buy and make category deal and which i don't think US will allow.
Only Dokdo class and French Mistral suites.

It does, because it says approx 200m, not max 200m, also there is no number mentioned for helicopters, only the maximum weight of helicopters, that should be able to operate. Besides, the 6 helicopters on INS Jalashwa so far are Sea King helicopters, while San Antonio class carries 4 Sea King, or V22 helicopter, that are a class above the Sea Kings!

 

[angeldemon_007]

Besides, the 6 helicopters on INS Jalashwa so far are Sea King helicopters

Yeah, i read it somewhere else, i will try to find where.

while San Antonio class carries 4 Sea King, or V22 helicopter, that are a class above the Sea Kings!

Sorry, but you yourself said, Jalashwa can carry 6 Sea King while San Antonio can carry 4 . Yeah San Antonio can also carry V22, but i don't see India buying it it is very expensive for India.

Also what about buy and make ? I don't think US will allow it, not to mention even if they allow they would take out many things like sensors and communication equipments which makes it high tech. Not to mention, the clear lack of trust among our forces for US.

 

[sancho]

Yeah, i read it somewhere else, i will try to find where.


Sorry, but you yourself said, Jalashwa can carry 6 Sea King while San Antonio can carry 4 . Yeah San Antonio can also carry V22, but i don't see India buying it it is very expensive for India.

Also what about buy and make ? I don't think US will allow it, not to mention even if they allow they would take out many things like sensors and communication equipments which makes it high tech. Not to mention, the clear lack of trust among our forces for US.

Sorry, typo! I meant 4 x CH 46 Sea Knights (naval version of Chinook), not Sea Kings and they are now replaced by V22s. The point is both, Sea Knights and V22s are bigger class helicopters, that's why they are available on San Antonio class in smaller numbers.
I also don't see IN buying V22s, but possibly the naval version of the Sikorsky S92 that Tata, or HAL (forgot it), is producing in India, or the Sikorsky CH 53 (possibly only 2 of them, but they fit to the maximum weight class as well):

Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kinetic]

Actually it is not meeting the requirements :
1) Length of the ship should not be more than 200m while that of San Antonio Class is 208m.

Do you think 8m will make any difference? NO. They will go for it. India did this earlier as well.

2) Also IN is clear that ship must be able to carry more helicopters (more than 6 which is the capacity of INS Jalashwa) which also does not suite San Antonio class which can handle upto 4 helicopters.

Where did you got this more than 6 helicopter thing? I can only find that the LPD should be capable of handling large helicopters upto 35 tons. Now V-22 Osprey only comes close.

Also we are forgetting its a buy and make category deal and which i don't think US will allow.

They will be more than eager to allow, the builder of San Antonio class ie Northrop Grumman already signed a MoU with Pipavav to 'focus on huge opportunities present in the defence sector in India'.

Only Dokdo class and French Mistral suites.

lol
Dokdo and Mistral are not LPDs but LHDs.

What is so advanced in San Antonio ??

San Antonio has the best combined package of sensor and weapon systems among the LPDs operational today.

I mean if you are talking about sensors or communication things then i should remind you we are not getting them without signing agreements, so in the end it would BEL again.

There is nothing wrong in sensors. The communication systems of most of the future systems for the armed forces will be indigenous whether the product is India or foreign. Sensors has nothing to do with it.

Not to mention, the shipyards in Europe are actually much better than US.

European shipyards don't come close. Northrop Grumman Shipbuilding is world's best defence ship builder.

 

[Kinetic]

Rotterdam class might be from the Netherlands, but developed with other countries as well:

Galicia class landing platform dock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also why do you think Albion class is old? First comissioned 2003, I think they could have even a good chance with the UK in bad shape and the close relations to us. San Antinio class, as I said, I have some doubts about licence production rights and the costs of course and in regard to Mistral, changing the deck layout says nothing about if it's proven or not right?
However, in this case I would go definitely for the cheapest solution, because these vessels don't have to be advanced in any terms, by the fact that they will see operational service only in desaster relief missions during peace and during war times they will work alongside a carrier group, which means there is no point in paying high prices for advanced techs and capabilties.

One of the main reason I said San Antonio is the one they are looking for because of the price tag. None of these ships costs so much except SA.

Also why do you think Albion class is old? First comissioned 2003, I think they could have even a good chance with the UK in bad shape and the close relations to us.

I know it built around 2003 but still the design is old compared to other modern ships of same type, for say compare HMS Albion with USS San Antonio...

San Antinio class, as I said, I have some doubts about licence production rights and the costs of course

I think cost will not be issue as its the only LPD that cost near to the price quoted by the media ie $1.25 billion per ship! License production as I said Nrothrop already tied up with Indian shipyard Pipavav.

However, in this case I would go definitely for the cheapest solution, because these vessels don't have to be advanced in any terms, by the fact that they will see operational service only in desaster relief missions during peace and during war times they will work alongside a carrier group, which means there is no point in paying high prices for advanced techs and capabilties.

I agree with you but I guess IN thinks differently. Whats the point of having a costly LDP when a Dokdo class LHD costs only 300/400 million.