India Ahead : How will PAF counter IAF - FGFA/PAKFA ?

[IceCold]

India won the war...and thats what matters and thats what counts....whatever collateral damage may be.

Did i mentioned anything about results. Learn to read before jumping on to the guns. And yes India did had better planes at that time against Pakistan, something i was telling fateh.

 

[thinkingcap81]

You are making a grave logical error. You are assuming that it was the lack of a weapons platform that prevented India from attacking Pakistan. Your cruise missiles could also have flown in, unstopped, and taken out installations. You did not lack the weapon systems. You lacked something else. Even after you acquire the FGFA, you will continue to lack that "something else".

Now, the question is, what is this elusive "something else". I am sure different people have different interpretations. Let me just tell you that in my view, it is the confidence that India can wage a war against Pakistan without being completely destroyed itself. That is what prevented 2002 from becoming a firefight, and what undermined any military action after 26/11.

Well yes, India to some extent probably lacked the stomach to fight. But please don't take this in terms of guts to wage a war. I am sure that the Indian political leadership has to take into account the fact public sentiment that will change as the contours of an Indo-Pak conflict too change. It is rumoured that the IAF gave the go-ahead for surgical strikes. In this case India will be the aggressor in the conventional sense. As an Indian i believe, as Deckingraj said, that India will not allow Pakistan to cross the nuclear threshold or Pakistan will herself not cross the nuke threshold. It is better to live for another day than to annihilate each other for the sake of pride.

Even if conventionally IA and IAF make decent inroads into some Pakistan territory as per the Cold Start doctrine, the huge losses of life and equipment on the Indian side may well cause a major change in Indian war-like sentiments and then the GoI may well be on the backfoot. There will then be a lot of national and International comments as well. So rather than the notion of India being annihilated/severely crippled i subscribe to the notion of huge losses on the Indian side to minimise chances to a conflict unless the situation is regarded as too provoking.

I am speaking from a civilian perspective and am not too clear about how military planners think. Hence my thoughts above.

I am from Lahore. Let me share a small factoid with you. The Pakistan Army runs a housing society for retired officers and also civilians, knows as the DHA (Defence Housing Society). The most recent and upscale phases of this society, which includes residences of serving and retired full Generals, Lt. Generals, Maj. Gens and other high ranking officers, have been situated right at the Indian border. While the city of Lahore is several miles away, these new phases are literally situated a stone's throw from the border with India. A General will not build his house on the Indian border and have his family live there if he thinks an Indian attack on Pakistan is likely. This is confidence not just in words, but in actions, on the ground.

Now you can talk about the FGFA or other platforms, but at the end of the day, one of the biggest counter arguments to all of this is the reality of Phase VIII, DHA Lahore. Odd as this is, it is living proof of the Pakistani estimate of India's capabilities. We can argue all day, but this estimate - that India has effectively been neutralized - will only be proved wrong the day India attacks. Until that day, let us not fantasize too much about FGFAs and other toys which we think will magically alter reality in the sub continent. The only recent event which massively changed the ground reality in South Asia occurred on 28th May, 1998. And that's cold hard fact.

I wonder, just speculation though, is the building of the Defence Housing Society (DHS) a ploy to show to India that the Pakistani first-use doctrine has a very low threshold? Is it not possible that this is a gamble worth taking?

In any limited Indo-Pak conflict surely housing colonies cannot be the first target. And whats more, the IA has envisaged a limited war scenario, so DHS is safe. But if it is attacked dare i say than then Pakistan will the the aggressor to cause India to attack DHS?

Tech sir, I am not looking to continue the argument as this would go around in circles. I just wanted to put my thoughts across. Thanks.

 

[aks]

Well yes, India to some extent probably lacked the stomach to fight. But please don't take this in terms of guts to wage a war. I am sure that the Indian political leadership has to take into account the fact public sentiment that will change as the contours of an Indo-Pak conflict too change. It is rumoured that the IAF gave the go-ahead for surgical strikes. In this case India will be the aggressor in the conventional sense. As an Indian i believe, as Deckingraj said, that India will not allow Pakistan to cross the nuclear threshold or Pakistan will herself not cross the nuke threshold. It is better to live for another day than to annihilate each other for the sake of pride.

Even if conventionally IA and IAF make decent inroads into some Pakistan territory as per the Cold Start doctrine, the huge losses of life and equipment on the Indian side may well cause a major change in Indian war-like sentiments and then the GoI may well be on the backfoot. There will then be a lot of national and International comments as well. So rather than the notion of India being annihilated/severely crippled i subscribe to the notion of huge losses on the Indian side to minimise chances to a conflict unless the situation is regarded as too provoking.

I am speaking from a civilian perspective and am not too clear about how military planners think. Hence my thoughts above.



I wonder, just speculation though, is the building of the Defence Housing Society (DHS) a ploy to show to India that the Pakistani first-use doctrine has a very low threshold? Is it not possible that this is a gamble worth taking?

In any limited Indo-Pak conflict surely housing colonies cannot be the first target. And whats more, the IA has envisaged a limited war scenario, so DHS is safe. But if it is attacked dare i say than then Pakistan will the the aggressor to cause India to attack DHS?

Tech sir, I am not looking to continue the argument as this would go around in circles. I just wanted to put my thoughts across. Thanks.

in 2002 stand off of pak india .. we gave pakistan army our fields n dera in shakar garh sector for there ammunition stores n for other activities .. every time indians violated at night and start firing across the border there main target were the civilians not the army areas ..

 

[gambit]

Gambit, do you think its possible for the F16C to get a kill against the F22 one on one. That is F22 without the Luneberg Enhancers, i ask this because i remember reading that the pilot of F16C got a clean kill against the F22 whereas the pilot for Growler bended quite a few rules before getting the kill.

Possible? Yes. Probable? No. Keep in mind that the greatest radar return is proportionate to surface area and even the F-22 must be subordinate to the laws of physics. That mean for a good radar lock, the best position is either top or bottom.

 

[Indian Gurkha]

hey guyz dis is my first post...hello everybody

 

[frodo]

yep We are not actualy need soo called 5th generatoin fighter and we are also not able to purchase atleast right now. But those (our enemies) who think that we are bit scared for India aquisiations of state of the art weapons especially MMRCA and PAK-FA they are actually in bollywood film-i-dreams. We even not a signle % worry about Indian military hardware because its a fact that we will never hesistate to press Nuclear button and we also feel free and easy just because we know our enemies "NOW" dont have guts to start fullscale either limited war or either soo called "Surgical Strike" (PS: i am always laughing on this statement surgical strike lol). We are easy and alwaysfeel easy and do not worry much about enemy military because of our Nuclear Missiles.

Don't worry buddy, you will get to see the surgical strike (and full scale war if Pakistan attacks) soon in the near future. Unfortunately our stupid pioliticians need another 26/11 like strike for that.

 

[aks]

Don't worry buddy, you will get to see the surgical strike (and full scale war if Pakistan attacks) soon in the near future. Unfortunately our stupid pioliticians need another 26/11 like strike for that.

keep dreaming

 

[Icarus]

Don't worry buddy, you will get to see the surgical strike (and full scale war if Pakistan attacks) soon in the near future. Unfortunately our stupid pioliticians need another 26/11 like strike for that.

Whatever helps you sleep better war monger, Remember that your economy is primarily based on international companies who have ventures in India, the day India declares war, they companies will leave and your economy will crash faster than your Mig-21s.................

 

[Icarus]

Don't worry buddy, you will get to see the surgical strike (and full scale war if Pakistan attacks) soon in the near future. Unfortunately our stupid pioliticians need another 26/11 like strike for that.

BTW, remember when last year, two of your planes entered our airspace, they were intercepted within two minutes.
If you are so fond of watching "Surgical Strikes" stock on some wood cuz you are going to have to cremate a lot of pilots.........

 

[Icarus]

hey guyz dis is my first post...hello everybody

to Indian Gurkha......................

 

[thinkingcap81]

in 2002 stand off of pak india .. we gave pakistan army our fields n dera in shakar garh sector for there ammunition stores n for other activities .. every time indians violated at night and start firing across the border there main target were the civilians not the army areas ..

Hard to believe that the firing was intentional unless it was unavoidable. But i was not there and i suppose that i have to take your word for it.

 

[thunder rules]

is india expecting a war right after they start inducting their pak fa the way indians are threatening us with their pak fa i have an impression that they have a plane to wage a war against pakistan .

 

[thunder rules]

Don't worry buddy, you will get to see the surgical strike (and full scale war if Pakistan attacks) soon in the near future. Unfortunately our stupid pioliticians need another 26/11 like strike for that.

why u want india to get completely destroyed? plz say no to war because it will only harm both countries.

 

[Storm Force]

Silly Topic really.

PAK FA is 10 years away. Pointless debate..

The Real Threat is SU30MKI/Phalcon Combo from the Air Force which is here and now.

The Akula & Soon to be inducted Arihant nuclear subs of the indian Navy

And The Smerch BMRL (range of 100 kilometres)+ 1500 T90 battle tanks being inducted as we speak.

Brahmos cruise missles being inducted by all 3 services

And Israeli Drones like Harpy etc.

 

[ptldM3]

Most estimates put the RCS at ~0.5m2. Sukhoi estimtates the RCS to be 40 times less than the MKI (which has an RCS of 20m2), putting it <1m2.

Those esstimates are from Bharat Rakshak and totally wrong. A Mig-21 with RAM treatment had a rcs of just 0.25m2 and the very un-stealthy SU-47 had a rcs of 0.3m2. The primary means of reducing an aircrafts' rcs is shaping, neither the Mig-21, nor the SU-47 had any 'stealth' shaping. The question is, how does an aircraft such as the PAK-FA which has 'stealth' shaping end up having a bigger rcs than both the Mig-21 and the SU-47? Anyone that beleives the PAK-FA will have anything close to 0.5m2 is extreemly gullible and naive, esspecially when the PAK-FA is in the prototype stage. But if you want to beleive a blogger be my guest.