PAF Took 6 minutes to respond to IAF airspace violation last year

[Pinnacle]

Not all bases are on ADA.

If I remember a post by MuradK a long time back, he mentioned that only 3-4 bases are on ADA in normal peacetime. And I don't remember them exactly, but I think they were Masroor, Peshawar and maybe Shorkot or Mianwali.

Maybe some other member can correct me. I'll also try to find the post by MuradK.

I think that should be Masroor, Mushaf, Peshawar and Shorkot air bases, Mianwali is not as much active for combat missions.

 

[Armstrong]

In peacetime I might add.

This would be when the ADA is of peace time...in heightened tensions, the pilots on alert may be sitting in their cockpits all day, reading 'khawateen digest' to kill time (yup, this does happen!).

As for this particular case, God knows the exact conditions of this. As you rightly said, there are ALOT of factors to determine this...and to definitively make a comment.

Allah khair kareiii !

The PAF needs to provide them with better reading material - Koi Munshi Prem Chand ka ya Pitras Bukhari ka novel if not a copy of the TIMES or Wall Street Journal !

 

[Chak Bamu]

The relevance of 6 minutes is meaningless. We do not have enough information to guess about the quality of response. But I trust PAF.

 

[BATMAN]

I think its geo news confirming 2 IAF fighters entered pak airspace up to 7km and stayed in PAF airspace for 2 minutes

3 questions

What where the indians doing there ?

Is 6 minutes a good response time by PAF by global standards ?

What fighters came into air space & which PAF fighters chased them out ?

You are forgetting that it was Zardari era, the govt. it self was complicit.
Hands of Army and airforce are tied by the political parties and judiciary of Pakistan.
India need to try this when some General ruling Pakistan, to find out the true response time, otherwise there estimates would be faulty.

 

[nair]

God knows who planted the 6 minutes. The response time is dependant on the distance of the base from the border, the alert aircraft present..and the heading of the intruders. The first and last are not in the control of any side. The middle, the status of the alert craft, the preparedness of the aircrew and support crew.. and the ability of the intercept controller to plan out an intercept most efficiently(yes folks, this is an art in itself). It also matters if there were aircraft in the air already, then the time shortens even further.. But essentially, aircraft like the JF-17(and even the F-7) are capable of going from cold position to in the air within 4-5 minutes...and this 4-5 minutes includes aircrews running from their ready room all the way to the jet. IF there are aircraft already on alert status with the pilot in the cockpit.. this time to take off and be in the air shortens further.

6 minutes however, may not be impossible. It sometimes happens that aircraft on the side of the border are picked up heading parallel to it(be it the Pakistani side or the Indian one). The phone rings, aircrews are ordered into their aircraft and they sit on alert status awaiting further instructions. Given the call that the suspect target has indeed turned towards friendly airspace... scrambles usually take less than 3 minutes.

I think you got it right...... No one (other than the radar operators of both countries and AF personal ) knows the exact time for response....... But then this happened on a peaceful time... if it is true then 6 minutes should be an excellent time....

As suspected if this was to check the PAF response does PAF does something similar????? If yes why not reported in indian media (considering the sensationalism they do)????

 

[BATMAN]

do pak have SAMS near boundaries..

Pakistan will never allow the enemy to know the position of its SAM sites, by shooting one two Indian a/c.
It will always be a dual and this is why Indinas always run before 2 minutes. As this is the true response time of PAF scrambling.
However, lot of Pakistanis are busy cutting the roots of Pakistan, by giving intelligence to India in the name of secularism and sense of displaced loyalties.
We need to be careful of those disloyal menace because most of them can be found supporting, duty free imports from India and more share to Indians in forex reserves of Pakistan.

 

[SQ8]

As suspected if this was to check the PAF response does PAF does something similar????? If yes why not reported in indian media (considering the sensationalism they do)????

Both sides do it on and off. These are done on the fly.. and to verify intel reports. Both the IAF and PAF(thanks to their respective intel agencies) know about 20-50% on various subjects about each other of what is going on that is not published elsewhere. This includes preparedness, op plans and among them reaction times(tested by the opponent during its exercises). So when say the IAF command reads that file which says "PAF Intelligence report".. and reads that the new C4I system allows for approx 5 min response time for X base; and that its plan for hitting that base in case of war warrants a 10 minute window at least.. it decides to verify it to ensure it is not false intel before having to undertake a possibly tedious and perhaps expensive(in different measures) changes to its plans. Hence you get these little snoops from time to time.

That being said, apart from these little snoops.. there is the general "show off" by the sides.. and the much more common naviational error that does happen to any new or even rookie pilot despite the latest aids. A minute looking outside at a beautiful sunset or nice scenery can have you heading towards the no mans land at the border.

 

[Armstrong]

Both sides do it on and off. These are done on the fly.. and to verify intel reports. Both the IAF and PAF(thanks to their respective intel agencies) know about 20-50% on various subjects about each other of what is going on that is not published elsewhere. This includes preparedness, op plans and among them reaction times(tested by the opponent during its exercises). So when say the IAF command reads that file which says "PAF Intelligence report".. and reads that the new C4I system allows for approx 5 min response time for X base; and that its plan for hitting that base in case of war warrants a 10 minute window at least.. it decides to verify it to ensure it is not false intel before having to undertake a possibly tedious and perhaps expensive(in different measures) changes to its plans. Hence you get these little snoops from time to time.

That being said, apart from these little snoops.. there is the general "show off" by the sides.. and the much more common naviational error that does happen to any new or even rookie pilot despite the latest aids. A minute looking outside at a beautiful sunset or nice scenery can have you heading towards the no mans land at the border.

Why didn't you join the PAF ?

 

[SQ8]

Why didn't you join the PAF ?

Almost did.. bad eyesight.. and discouragement from a AVM that this is not the life you want(you need something better). ACdre Rizwan(died with ACM Mushaf) wanted me to go into aerospace.. but .. alas.. fate is a cruel mistress.

 

[Armstrong]

Almost did.. bad eyesight.. and discouragement from a AVM that this is not the life you want(you need something better). ACdre Rizwan(died with ACM Mushaf) wanted me to go into aerospace.. but .. alas.. fate is a cruel mistress.

I often think that my life would've been so much more meaningful had I joined the Army; this mundane existence of a civilian where you kill yourself at work to get a promotion so that you can do twice as much work for a sh*t load of money most of which either gets spent on your family's ever piling list of farmishaaaiiin or the usual bills, is such a kill-joy !

I would've been so much better as a soldier working towards something more palpable & immediately conspicuous & permeating - Defense of the Motherland !

 

[SQ8]

I often think that my life would've been so much more meaningful had I joined the Army; this mundane existence of a civilian where you kill yourself at work to get a promotion so that you can do twice as much work for a sh*t load of money most of which either gets spent on your family's ever piling list of farmishaaaiiin or the usual bills, is such a kill-joy !

I would've been so much better as a soldier working towards something more palpable & immediately conspicuous & permeating - Defense of the Motherland !

Dont be such a "born on the 4th of July". What you do in your civilian life also contributes to the nation in its way. Your salary gets taxed, your work helps an organization grow that contributes tax... you are doing your part(perhaps more since you are of the 10% that actually pay taxes). What a soldier does is his job, he chose it.. garlands to him.. what you do is your job and it is no less contributing to the soldiers welfare and defence as his own job.

 

[nomi007]

never trust on geo

 

[Armstrong]

Dont be such a "born on the 4th of July". What you do in your civilian life also contributes to the nation in its way. Your salary gets taxed, your work helps an organization grow that contributes tax... you are doing your part(perhaps more since you are of the 10% that actually pay taxes). What a soldier does is his job, he chose it.. garlands to him.. what you do is your job and it is no less contributing to the soldiers welfare and defence as his own job.

I know - I keep connecting those pathways where my labor's fruit would eventually lead to & benefit the country !

Its not that, I just like the sense of meaning that a soldier's life has when stripped off all the fluff that comes with most other kinds of life & along with it not only the romanticization but also an appeal to man's more primal instinct of defending the family !

Otherwise I wouldn't want to join the Army but in these times when they get to walk through the Valley of Death, too have those intellectual constructs whither away in those moments of certainty - kill or be killed, that sense of camaraderie & the certainty that you are fighting the good fight !

 

[SQ8]

I know - I keep connecting those pathways where my labor's fruit would eventually lead to & benefit the country !

Its not that, I just like the sense of meaning that a soldier's life has when stripped off all the fluff that comes with most other kinds of life & along with it not only the romanticization but also an appeal to man's more primal instinct of defending the family !

Otherwise I wouldn't want to join the Army but in these times when they get to walk through the Valley of Death, too have those intellectual constructs whither away in those moments of certainty - kill or be killed, that sense of camaraderie & the certainty that you are fighting the good fight !

We all have our Walter Mitty moments. Best to leave them at that and not dwell on them beyond what they are. And lets get back to the thread.

 

[Nabeel Huda]

Hi, Newbie here .. i come & read Posts on & Off for Years & mostly what i wanna say or ask is already been up here mentioned so never felt the need to make account & all ... Yes i m THAT lazy ... :p

Well I m amazed tht None of the Member Highlighted the "
"Agreement Between Pakistan And India On Prevention Of Air Space Violation"
It clearly state ..

• 
  ARTICLE 2

• 
  Subject to Articles 3,4 and 6, the following restrictions are to be observed by military aircraft of both the forces:
  a. Combat aircraft (to include fighter, bomber, reconnaissance, jet military trainer and armed helicopter aircraft) will not fly within 10 kms of each other's airspace including ADIZ. No aircraft of any side will enter the airspace over the territorial waters of the other country, except by prior permission.
  

This Means .. when the One of the Opponent's FACs comes near or cross the 10Kms Border Threshold on their Own side of the Border .. the Opponent Radars Flung into Life with Alarms & All & Team start Monitoring it .. So in the light of above ...

1- This is never a Technical Error .. 10Km + Few Miles within Enemy Territory ... are U flying a Kite or what .. it is always Meant to be a test of Air force Preparedness ...

2- Six Minutes was not a Good Response time ... the Teams should have called into Cockpit the moment Plane comes near the 10Km No Fly Zone .. Crossing the Line of this threshold should make the Planes scramble so tht when Enemy A/C reach the border .... Our Planes are already Airborne & Ready to go ..

3- But yes i agree to the Peace time notion .. Coz also Please Remember in 2008 after Mumbai Incident .. PAF was on high Alert & they were on site of Border Violation within 2-3 Minutes .. which is preferably better ... but the planes have had again already left ...

4- I still am waiting for someone to Decipher How come The OBL Raid happen for an hour & they were in & out and PAF scrambled so late .... I agree .. it is Just Western Border, Radars were Not Active & All ... but we are talking Abbotabad here ... are we so much open to a 9/11 type attack .. ???

The Link to The agreement : (Sorry it has to be googled as i it is not letting me post)
stimson org research-pages agreement-between-pakistan-and-india-on-prevention-of-air-space-violation