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India Ahead : How will PAF counter IAF - FGFA/PAKFA ?

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China will begin inducting JXX in the 2020s, Pakistan 2030+ (if at all)

Pakistan isn't countering PAK FA any time soon.

don't confuse people ,indian buddy

heavy fighter around 2016
light fighter around 2020

PAK may get second one before 2025 if they are interested,also i think F-35 is another possible choice for them
 
Nostalgia is not good for your health...PAKFA like SU-30MKI will boost up IAF many folds plus LCA and MRCA and the upcoming MCA....and don't think that we are comparing oursleves with you...because we are already WAAAAAAAAAY ahead of you...so chill!THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS!

Yawns. Yaar you guys are getting me bored. After all the big claims like we have a huge military and a huge economy I saw nothing but keyboard warriors wasting their time and bandwidth. Yes your airforce is waaaay ahead because mine is not worthless like my adversary. And I am proud of it.

:pakistan:
 
If you can think of surgical strike and getting away with it, why cant we :D

We can get away , because PAK FA cannot be detected by your radars, but if any cruise, F-16's or BLAH BLAH BLAH are sent, then We would be landing every single of them, and Dont forget ,Phalcons are there
 
I am not in agreement with this as well Sir...If nuclear threshold is not crossed then why would a country use nukes to destroy her enemy and kill helself as well??? if there is no serious threat on the existence of Pakistan then i doubt there would be any use of nukes unless and until some rogue general thinks that his/her ego is more important than millions of human life..

I think you misunderstood me. If the FGFA is highly effective, what does that really mean on the ground? Clearly, you don't need the FGFA to take out a couple of installations in disputed territory. That is not the unique capability of the FGFA. A few cruise missiles could accomplish that also.

So, let's go to the heart of this... what REAL scenario is there that would be one in which the FGFA has been proven *highly* effective and a game changer? That scenario clearly involves the destruction of the PAF and/or strategic targets within Pakistan. If the FGFA achieves the *unique* aims set forth for it, then these are the two goals that will be achieved. However, much before these goals are achieved the nuclear threshold would have already been crossed.

Pakistan will not wait for the PAF to be completely destroyed. Pakistan will not sit by and watch its strategic installations be destroyed. Pakistan will also not allow territory to be lost. These are the kinds of things that will cause the nuclear threshold to be crossed. This is not for India to decide. It is for Pakistan to decide since we have a first-use policy.

Again, a limited conflict can only happen in disputed territory, pretty much without heavy air force engagement. And as you yourself said, in that scenario the FGFA is not going to change the fundamental dynamics, much less the outcome, of the conflict.

I hope you understand the point now... the FGFA or any other platform for that matter, cannot win a conventional war for India because prior to such a point, by definition, the nuclear threshold would have been crossed.
 
Indeed, SAMS alone wont do the job and we are quite aware of that. If you look at how PAF is structured, its structured to match the enemy blow to blow in offensive doctrine and not just rely on SAMS.
Thanks for echoing what i am trying to explain few Pakistani friends here...


What makes you think PAF hasnt taken it into consideration that IAF will be inducting PAK-FA in the next decade. I urge you to not take PAF as a bunch of push overs, the senior command of PAF consists of individuals who are highly professional intellectuals and they take their jobs very seriousally. They analyze the potential threats facing the country very seriousally and develop the proper steps necessary to immunize those threats;
Sir i have utmost respect for Armed Forces...No way i can disrespect them even of they are adversary...In fact in every post i am trying to ask what are those considerations...What are those countermeasures???

why do you think PAF does not fears the SU30MKI, its because they have developed the necessary deterrents to neutralize this plane.
I will doubt the fear part... I am sure even though IAF have better plane(MKI) as compared to your F16 Block 52 yet they will have fear about this plane...Having fear is a good sign because it keeps you on toes and don't let you compacent...

No doubt that MKI would be the biggest headache of PAF, however this plane is not invincible...It might have higher probabilty to kill any plane in PAF inventory in a 1-o-1 scenario but can be defeated with strategy(AWACS, Combination of Planes etc).... Now will that strategy work or not only time will tell(god forbids that time ever come)....

However when it comes to a true 5 generation Aircraft all these strategies fail...As of now there is hardly any Radar in PAF inventory that can detect a 5 generation Air Craft...and any plane that can take it on.... Also there is no current programme in PAF as a counter measure.. This is what i am asking for....

The reason why i think PAF will also acquire a 5th Generation Aircraft at roughly the same time as IAF is because i believe China will come up with a plane.
Are you guys having a JV with China like India have JV with China apart from her own separate 5 Generation plane??? If not then there is no guarantee that you will get that plane leave aside induction at same time... Mind it i am not challenging your All Weather Friendship however if there is no JV then you have no Direct say in the programme...They may or may not give it to you...They will give it to you only after their own needs are fulfilled...as compared to India Russia JV....India have 50% stake so if 100 planes are build 50 would reach India...

P.S : Please don't mistake it as a flame bait..I am just trying to show the difference between a JV and Claim on a plane based on friendship...No ill intentions...


China unlike India/Russia has the capability to run multiple projects at the same time like the US. Why, because they have the necessary funds and expertise. They are running multiple 5th Generation Aircraft, AESA radars, Engines, Munitions, Avionics, Tanks, Missiles, APCs, Naval Ships and other Aviation Projects. Their R&D Budget and their workforce is a testament to the fact that they are not just focusing on quantity anymore, they are investing heavily in quality and are looking to became a major power projecting military. Russia at most can compete with them for a decade thanks to the infrastructure they inherited from Soviet Union. This century will definitely be a Chinese Century like the 19th century was an American Century.

I honestly would be a happy man if this happens..Would be good for Asia as a whole...if Chinese will do it we will try to emulate them...if Indias would do it Pakistan would try to emulate her...However i have my reasons to believe a decade is little too optimistic...
 
Why would it not reach its Designation or destination what ever You call it...
Let me enlighten you,
some wise man once said, India is not Israel and Pakistan is certainly no Palestine.
So? gonna do surgical strike and Thinking of getting away with it?

Surgical strikes, cold start, hot pursuits are terminologies to float the Indian boat, the rumor in Pakistan is ..... pay back.
 
i think let the pak fa get inducted by iaf then we should discuss this . 2020 is far away
 
Recently after 26/11 surgical strikes were quite eminent, if india would have had the PAK-FA, it would be the most precise weapon for such purpose.

The "Nuke" option is a suicide as India wont strike first.
The time has come that Pakistani Thinkers realize that no longer "Nukes are One medicine against all ailments".

How will F16s face PAKFAs when they wont be able to track them?

You are making a grave logical error. You are assuming that it was the lack of a weapons platform that prevented India from attacking Pakistan. Your cruise missiles could also have flown in, unstopped, and taken out installations. You did not lack the weapon systems. You lacked something else. Even after you acquire the FGFA, you will continue to lack that "something else".

Now, the question is, what is this elusive "something else". I am sure different people have different interpretations. Let me just tell you that in my view, it is the confidence that India can wage a war against Pakistan without being completely destroyed itself. That is what prevented 2002 from becoming a firefight, and what undermined any military action after 26/11.

I am from Lahore. Let me share a small factoid with you. The Pakistan Army runs a housing society for retired officers and also civilians, knows as the DHA (Defence Housing Society). The most recent and upscale phases of this society, which includes residences of serving and retired full Generals, Lt. Generals, Maj. Gens and other high ranking officers, have been situated right at the Indian border. While the city of Lahore is several miles away, these new phases are literally situated a stone's throw from the border with India. A General will not build his house on the Indian border and have his family live there if he thinks an Indian attack on Pakistan is likely. This is confidence not just in words, but in actions, on the ground.

Now you can talk about the FGFA or other platforms, but at the end of the day, one of the biggest counter arguments to all of this is the reality of Phase VIII, DHA Lahore. Odd as this is, it is living proof of the Pakistani estimate of India's capabilities. We can argue all day, but this estimate - that India has effectively been neutralized - will only be proved wrong the day India attacks. Until that day, let us not fantasize too much about FGFAs and other toys which we think will magically alter reality in the sub continent. The only recent event which massively changed the ground reality in South Asia occurred on 28th May, 1998. And that's cold hard fact.
 
All i know is that kill ratio of F22 vs MKI would be 99:1 if stealth is there....bcoz F22 would be firing its missile at the time when MKI would not have any clue that combat is ON....

Low frequency radar and AWACS could be used to track the general location of the F-22 and direct say 15 MKI's towards that general direction. The MKI's could then use infrared to engage the F-22.

99:1 is just rubbish.

Now with FGFA in picture i just don't get what counter measures would be taken to stop FGFA from entering Pak Air Space and pounding sensitive targets... Also how successful can be any PAF operations inside Indian Air Space??? Mind it i am not saying 5 generation planes are invisible but because of stealth and no true counter measure against them win probablity tilt towards them by a huge margin....

In short would it be true to say - where ever you would face FGFA there is a high probabilty that you will loose that particular battle...unless and until you have a good enough countermeasure??... All i am asking is what are those countermeasures...

Here is my opinion - The only possible counter measure at that time is speedy induction of China's 5 generation Plane... PAF would have to wait till China come up with an alternate and hope it is good enough to challenge FGFA...Secondly economy needs to be good to back such inductions... FGFA is going to cost $100 million per Plane so inducting 5 generation plane is not easy....

An F-16 scored a kill against an F-22 in a red flag excercise.
A super hornet was also able to get an F-22 into gun site during other exercises.

If this can happen to an aircraft as advanced as F-22 then it goes without saying that an inferior aircraft such as the PAK-FA will still be vulnerable to advanced 4.5 Gen fighters.

If Pakistan can't afford to buy 5th Gen fighters, then advanced SAMs might be a more affordable counter because I dont think the PAK-FA will be a true stealth aircraft.
 
Tech Lahore Sir i musy saty i am enjoying this conversation with you...a meaningful discussion always chenge your perception about people from across the border...Unfortunately i am stilll in disagreement :)

I think you misunderstood me. If the FGFA is highly effective, what does that really mean on the ground? Clearly, you don't need the FGFA to take out a couple of installations in disputed territory. That is not the unique capability of the FGFA. A few cruise missiles could accomplish that also.

No doubt about it...However situation dramatically changes after that... We all know what could be a possible PA response for any so called surgical strikes...

So, let's go to the heart of this...
Sure!!!


I wish what you said below is true because this would have eliminated Arms race in South Asia...Anyways let me Paint my hypothetical scenario(Plese bear with me)

what REAL scenario is there that would be one in which the FGFA has been proven *highly* effective and a game changer? That scenario clearly involves the destruction of the PAF and/or strategic targets within Pakistan. If the FGFA achieves the *unique* aims set forth for it, then these are the two goals that will be achieved. However, much before these goals are achieved the nuclear threshold would have already been crossed.

No not really!!! This is where i have different opinion.....Aim/role of FGFA can be different than annihilation of PAF..

Unless and until you don't have effective measures against FGFA your fighters would not cross Indian Air Space...They are fighters not suicide bombers or else there is high chance you would loose them without achieving their mission... Your ground troops would be pretty much without Air Cover because of same reasons... indian strategist would get a free run on your ground troops because PA would get involved the moment IA will put its first step in Pak...If you look at so called Cold Start this is what we are looking for.... In fact it would be a dream come true for Indian Military Brass...They would love to have a Go after your military installations knowing you would not have effective Air Support and they are backed with planes like FGFA...

This is where is see FGFA doing its job...


Pakistan will not wait for the PAF to be completely destroyed. Pakistan will not sit by and watch its strategic installations be destroyed. Pakistan will also not allow territory to be lost. These are the kinds of things that will cause the nuclear threshold to be crossed. This is not for India to decide. It is for Pakistan to decide since we have a first-use policy.

No doubt about it Sir...However would you agree using nukes is not a child game??? There is no doubt that its Pakistan who will decide what is nuclear threshhold, similarly everything cannot be nuclear threshold...

Again, a limited conflict can only happen in disputed territory, pretty much without heavy air force engagement. And as you yourself said, in that scenario the FGFA is not going to change the fundamental dynamics, much less the outcome, of the conflict.
Ummm i disagree...It was the involvement of Air Force that helped India changed the outcome of conflicts like Kargil...I would be surprised if Air Force role can be nullified be it a limited conflict... You got to have a counter measure against planes like FGFA otherwise you would never know where to engage your planes to hit supply lines of IA where as PA supply lines would always be under IAF pounding...


I hope you understand the point now... the FGFA or any other platform for that matter, cannot win a conventional war for India because prior to such a point, by definition, the nuclear threshold would have been crossed.
No way can India Pak win a conventional war....However it is the limited wars where the ball game would change by leaps and bounds...

P.S : I know i am not as knowledgable as you are however i do not see flaws in my hypothetical scenario :(..SO would appreciate if you can help....
 
Low frequency radar and AWACS could be used to track the general location of the F-22 and direct say 15 MKI's towards that general direction. The MKI's could then use infrared to engage the F-22.

99:1 is just rubbish.


An F-16 scored a kill against an F-22 in a red flag excercise.
A super hornet was also able to get an F-22 into gun site during other exercises.

If this can happen to an aircraft as advanced as F-22 then it goes without saying that an inferior aircraft such as the PAK-FA will still be vulnerable to advanced 4.5 Gen fighters.

If Pakistan can't afford to buy 5th Gen fighters, then advanced SAMs might be a more affordable counter because I dont think the PAK-FA will be a true stealth aircraft.

What??? This is indeed news to me....Would you mind elaborating more on F-16 as well as Super Hornet combat against F22??? Was F22 in full stealth mode or was involved in some dog fight with these planes???

From my limited knowledge all i know is that planes like F22 are very hard to catch by any radars in operation... but would love to learn a bit more on this...

I mean something don't make sense because if getting F22 is so damn easy then what is the point of such costly planes...

As far as capabilites of PAK FA is concerned i never made any claims about them...You or atleast I cannot suggest that because specs are not yet out...All i know is that ruskies do come up with great planes so there is high probablity that FGFA would be a true 5 generation plane...

P.S : I strongly believe that nothing is invincible but also consider sending 15 MKI per F22 is not a luxury that countries in South Asia enjoys
 
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What??? This is indeed news to me....Would you mind elaborating more on F-16 as well as Super Hornet combat against F22??? Was F22 in full stealth mode or was involved in some dog fight with these planes???

From my limited knowledge all i know is that planes like F22 are very hard to catch by any radars in operation... but would love to learn a bit more on this...

I mean something don't make sense because if getting F22 is so damn easy then what is the point of such costly planes...

As far as capabilites of PAK FA is concerned i never made any claims about them...You or atleast I cannot suggest that because specs are not yet out...All i know is that ruskies do come up with great planes so there is high probablity that FGFA would be a true 5 generation plane...
He's a little confused right now. No F16 has ever scored a kill against an F22. There has been an F-18 Growler and not the super hornet that scored a kill agianst the F22 in a war game.

Also the low frequency radars although capable of detecting F22 would not detect at at huge distances and due to the low frequency nature, would not be able to detect it accurately, so lock on would not be possible.

And then again, infrared missile although very capable have a very limited range of 20-30 kms on average. F22 would have fired all its missiles a lot earlier and would have returned back too.:toast_sign:
 
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