India Ahead : How will PAF counter IAF - FGFA/PAKFA ?

[notorious_eagle]

An answer to a 5 generation AC can only be another 5 Generation AC...Do you agree???

Indeed, SAMS alone wont do the job and we are quite aware of that. If you look at how PAF is structured, its structured to match the enemy blow to blow in offensive doctrine and not just rely on SAMS. What makes you think PAF hasnt taken it into consideration that IAF will be inducting PAK-FA in the next decade. I urge you to not take PAF as a bunch of push overs, the senior command of PAF consists of individuals who are highly professional intellectuals and they take their jobs very seriousally. They analyze the potential threats facing the country very seriousally and develop the proper steps necessary to immunize those threats; why do you think PAF does not fears the SU30MKI, its because they have developed the necessary deterrents to neutralize this plane.

The reason why i think PAF will also acquire a 5th Generation Aircraft at roughly the same time as IAF is because i believe China will come up with a plane. China unlike India/Russia has the capability to run multiple projects at the same time like the US. Why, because they have the necessary funds and expertise. They are running multiple 5th Generation Aircraft, AESA radars, Engines, Munitions, Avionics, Tanks, Missiles, APCs, Naval Ships and other Aviation Projects. Their R&D Budget and their workforce is a testament to the fact that they are not just focusing on quantity anymore, they are investing heavily in quality and are looking to became a major power projecting military. Russia at most can compete with them for a decade thanks to the infrastructure they inherited from Soviet Union. This century will definitely be a Chinese Century like the 19th century was an American Century.

 

[SomeGuy]

The PAKFA will not be the game changer that most indians seem to think it will be.

It will be a L.O aircraft but probably not true stealth (like the F-22 or F-35) - most estimates around on the internet put the frontal RCS at 0.5m2, compare this to current 4.5 Generation A.C's that have around ~1m2 and the F-22/F-35 which are estimated to have lower than 0.001m2.

PAKFA capabilities will probably be below F-35 (and F-22), but above everything else.

The unit cost is expected to be $100 million, so it's closer to advanced 4.5 generation planes in terms of costs than it is to true 5th gen planes - the F-35 at $190 million each (in 2010) is almost twice as much.

As to what will Pakistan do to counter PAKFA? - Well people, remember an F-117 was shot down over Yugoslavia in 1999 by an C-125/SA-3 missile, and this aircraft has a higher level of stealth than what the PAKFA is expected to have!

Also, Pakistan could develop L.O UCAVs to strike back at India in the event of war. I mean if Iran could use a UAV to spy on a US Aircraft carrier in the gulf and remain undetected, then surely Pakistan with better know-how could develop LO UCAVs.

 

[Areesh]

I have seen another interesting argument :

A standard argument is that Pakistan pilots are way too good. They are idolised to an extent that makes one wonder what they were doing in 1971 war when the element of surprise was with PAF. After the so called "pre emptive" strikes India decimated the PAF and attained total air superiority.

Air superiority? I think you better revise the history of IAF.

IAF in 1971

Read the whole thread it might be useful for you.

 

[Aslan]

Are you kidding me?? Look at the bolded part in your reply...You will think about it after we induct a 5 generation plane??? There is a saying about defence "prepare for the worst"...Here you are talking about best case scenario that FGFA might not be a 5 generation plane...

As far as transparency is concerned you missed my point...What i am saying is that being democracy all the major defence deals are out there in public domain..nothing like compulsion...India and Pak are mostly depending upon foreign imports so it is very difficult to keep defence deals under the wraps...

In other words so far we have not heard about any plans to counter FGFA...I can understand if you are suspecting India Tech for Fighter Pilots but suspecting Russian Tech would be an overstatement...Anyways i still don't have any answer apart from an attempt by SABER.. Let me reply to him...

Listen dude! What is it that you didnt understand from what I had stated, all I said was that wait for it to be completely inducted and then we will see what it has to offer. That in no way shape or form means that PAF is sitting on its back sipping tea waiting for the unit to be inducted so that they can study whats on offer and then find a counter measure for it. I am sure that they are already on it, and you never know we might even have a mole there to give us some handy details. (sarcasm intended)

And as far as Pakistan telling the democracy what it is inducting, as I said earlier my friend it is no ones business in knowing what we induct and what not. All these things are for wartime purpose, and who ever is having dirty intentions towards Pakistan will find out about the complete weapons system that are with the Pakistani forces onces they try the misadventure. Thanks,

 

[shining eyes]

I mean if Iran could use a UAV to spy on a US Aircraft carrier in the gulf and remain undetected, then surely Pakistan with better know-how could develop LO UCAVs.

wow a new thing!!

While no aircraft is totally invisible to radar, stealth aircraft prevent conventional radar from detecting or tracking the aircraft effectively, reducing the odds of an attack. Stealth is accomplished by using a complex design philosophy to reduce the ability of an opponent's sensors to detect, track, or attack the stealth aircraft.[7] This philosophy also takes into account the heat, sound, and other emissions of the aircraft as these can also be used to locate it.

read 1st 2 pages of thread!
1. china will not sit comfortably and see india get 5th geberation crafts.(they will either make radars to counter or a better 5th generation aircraft)
2. I wont be surprised if we get an anti aircraft system like SAM-400 or 500 BY THEN (2020 when india will have some pak fas) takng in account that sam400 is specially designed to detect stealth aircrafts.
3. REMEMBER the war of 1965? 3:1 ratio? while PAF waz also inferior to IAF in numbers and tech. so i believe in the ABILITY of PAF!
4.Pakistan has supperior missile (got from indian new chennal thay also said that indian missiles are mostly crap) and NUCLEAR CAPABILITY!

 

[JonAsad]

These type of conclusions.. i have seen them before.. haan i remember when india tested their nuclear devices.. well at that time my indian friends used to come up with same conclusion..like Pakistan can never test a nuclear weapon, america will not let Pakistan, Pakistan nuclear Weapon is decade away, we will soon take over Pakistan and a lot of other BS.

But guess what if its a matter of national security we always come up with an answer to maintain stabilty.. firstly lets India have a 5th gen fighter then see when and how Pakistan come up with its 5th gen fighter.

Technological wise Pakistan always has been superioir to India.. may it be nukes,missiles, C&C infrastrucutre etc

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340687/
i can give you other links aswell if some one wants

 

[IceCold]

I guess this thread just broke all previous records of posts being deleted in one single thread.
Anyways coming back to the topic at hand......what will Pakistan do once India gets its hands on PAKFA? I would say that the chances of Pakistan getting F-35 are relatively large as compared to the supposedly JXX. Here is what i am basing my argument on
F-16s when first inducted were also not for sale but then came the time when its sale was made possible and it became one of the most built fighter jets in the world serving countless countries and still continue to do so. F-35 may very well be out of Pakistans league for now but it is still available for sale to countries with priorities being set as far as its delivery is being concerned however we are talking about 2025 and beyond and this is relatively a reasonable time frame since this is going to be the same time we can expect India to start inducting PAKFA. Those who think India will start inducting planes well by 2018 live in a fools paradise and have no idea about how induction of a newly built fighter jet takes place specially if its a stealth fighter. Remember Russia is still new in this field although it has a well built fighter industry, stealth is something altogether different. Gambit can perhaps shed more light on Russian stealth capabilities.
One more thing there are certain countries(Japan, Australia) that are not fully satisfied with F-35 and are continuing pressurizing US to open the sales for the raptor. It is only logical to believe that sooner or latter US may allow small batch sales to limited counties of F-22 but at the same time they cannot drop the F-35 program at all but will look for other buyers who may very well be interested in retiring the F-16s and replace it with F-35. Pakistan just happens to be one of those countries.
This is my 2cents on the issue. Feel free to disagree but remain logical while arguing.

 

[Aslan]

Anyways good luck with that super duper hush hush stuff... However i asked the same question to Khalidali...Why you guys are just concentrating on Pakistan Air Space??? Defensive doctorine doesn't mean that you will not pound India Air-Fields, other sensitive targets...An answer to a 5 generation AC can only be another 5 Generation AC...Do you agree???

Well not necessarily! let me ask you what makes a 5G a 5G. Who decides that. As I have stated before I am not a military guy so will answer to the best of my ability. The 5G planes have a very small radar cross section and are harder to detect. Now that dont mean that they are not detectable at all. What if some one builds a radar that can actually detect it from a distance. Also what if the 5G plane cant detect the 4 or 4+ one due to the counter measures that have been put in place to avoid radar detection. Just a though it might sound stupid may be some one else can better answer what I have written.

 

[gambit]

Well not necessarily! let me ask you what makes a 5G a 5G. Who decides that.

No one decides. Certainly not US. We just build them and let anyone make any label he want.

The 5G planes have a very small radar cross section and are harder to detect. Now that dont mean that they are not detectable at all.

True. The US have never claimed any 'invisibility'.

What if some one builds a radar that can actually detect it from a distance.

No one done it yet. Odds are not good that any such radar can be developed in the next 10 yrs. Not impossible, just not good odds.

Also what if the 5G plane cant detect the 4 or 4+ one due to the counter measures that have been put in place to avoid radar detection.

The problem is that in order to make active those countermeasures, they must know or at least be suspicious that there is a 'stealth' aircraft in the area. Or they could fly with those countermeasures on all the time. But if they do that, then our 'stealth' fighters will know where the enemy is so there is no need for our 'stealth' fighters to turn their radars on anyway.

 

[JonAsad]

Air superiority? I think you better revise the history of IAF.

IAF in 1971

Read the whole thread it might be useful for you.

They do not believe in independent view. they are used to and are happy with what they are taught at school about so called 1971 Air Superiority.

 

[Chanakyaa]

wow a new thing!!

read 1st 2 pages of thread!
1. china will not sit comfortably and see india get 5th geberation crafts.(they will either make radars to counter or a better 5th generation aircraft)

China may get Fifth Gen Fighters more or less in witin 5 Years after India get PAKFA.
But, The Topic is about Pakistan NOT China.
Agreed that PAF will get JXX but not before 2030.

2. I wont be surprised if we get an anti aircraft system like SAM-400 or 500 BY THEN (2020 when india will have some pak fas) takng in account that sam400 is specially designed to detect stealth aircrafts.

If-Then-Else wont help here. I dont see how PAF might get S-300/400 and even if they get it the Steallth Fighter gets the name for a reason - "Its Hard to Detect" .

As i had said in my opening post - How many $100 Million Plane Fighters can Pakistan Afford to match 500 Indian Fifth gen Fighters. ?

3. REMEMBER the war of 1965? 3:1 ratio? while PAF waz also inferior to IAF in numbers and tech. so i believe in the ABILITY of PAF!

And what about 1971, 1999 ?
Besides, now the difference is huge.. Ask ur self can "Highly Able" 4th gen Fighters Match the "invisible" and Technologically a generation ahead Fighters ?

4.Pakistan has supperior missile (got from indian new chennal thay also said that indian missiles are mostly crap) and NUCLEAR CAPABILITY!

What should i deduce .. Indian Channels Always say truth ? [ and they also say alot about Pakistan "Incapability" as well ]

Or that Indian or Any News Channel is capable of understaing "Missile Technology" ?

India is going to Test 5000KM [ nearly an ICBM ] and u still fancinate with ur fanboy views. ?

 

[mjnaushad]

IAF was always high in numbers from PAF. Whats making big difference now.

PAKFA??

Its not the first time India is getting something which Pakistan dont look like having in coming few years. Nuclear sub, Air craft carrier, etc etc. But do these things really make this big difference that you guys draged it to 7 pages and getting happy that now Pakistan is doomed and its Air force is no threat.

If you guys really believe in what you guys typed above. Attack us the day you get PAKFA. dont wait. After all its 5th Gen AC and we'll be sitting ducks.

but before that read the history. You'll notice we never had better numbers than IAF or better tech. But we still pulled it off.

I'll be waiting.

Regards.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

IAF was always high in numbers from PAF. Whats making big difference now.

PAKFA??

Its not the first time India is getting something which Pakistan dont look like having in coming few years. Nuclear sub, Air craft carrier, etc etc. But do these things really make this big difference that you guys draged it to 7 pages and getting happy that now Pakistan is doomed and its Air force is no threat.

No one is saying that Pakistan is doomed and PAF is no threat....every nation procures aircrafts for iots security and to have an edge over its counterpart..thus india will undoubtedly have an edge over PAF when it gets 5 gen AC..and thats what the thread asks..what counter measure PAF will have in that scenario..no one is saying there will be a war if IAF gets the aircraft..

If you guys really believe in what you guys typed above. Attack us the day you get PAKFA. dont wait. After all its 5th Gen AC and we'll be sitting ducks.

India does not intend to have a war..and I am sure so does Pakistan..so lets not talk like a kid saying attack us if you can.
No one is a sitting duck in todays world..even America has not been able to eliminate Taliban for so many years inspite of having tech superiority.

 

[yashchauhan]

Air superiority? I think you better revise the history of IAF.

IAF in 1971

Read the whole thread it might be useful for you.

Nostalgia is not good for your health...PAKFA like SU-30MKI will boost up IAF many folds plus LCA and MRCA and the upcoming MCA....and don't think that we are comparing oursleves with you...because we are already WAAAAAAAAAY ahead of you...so chill!THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS!

 

[lhuang]

China will begin inducting JXX in the 2020s, Pakistan 2030+ (if at all)

Pakistan isn't countering PAK FA any time soon.