How good the Mig-29 UPG/SMT against the F-16 Blk 50/52+ ??

[UKBengali]

It is funny seeing this turning into such a heated argument

What happened in actual combat is meaningless as the Mig-29s were always the downgraded export models that took on the full-spec Nato F-16s. The Nato planes also had full AWACs support.

Only if there was an air-war between India and Pakistan, that involved dozens of Pakistani F-16s and Indian Mig-29s, will anyone really know which is the better air-to-air fighter.

My personal opinion is that both the F-16 block 50/52 and the Mig-29SMT are very similar in capability.

 

[sancho]

What I tried to say that, Can Pilot with topsight helmet look over his shoulder and and lock on to to plane on it's tail and fire missile?

I'm asking this because, topsight specs says it has 20 Degree operating capability and also from abing post DASH doesn't provide a 90 degree operating capability correct me if I'm wrong.

The 20 degree is the field of view of the monocular, so the FOV to the front of the helmet, but the pilot turns his head to the side, or the rear and that this 20 degree are the FOV to the rear of the fighter.
It's the same with a fixed radar, that has a certain field of vie to the front, but if the radar array is mounted on a mechanical plate like on the MKI, or Gripen NG, the radar will be turned to the side which increases it's FOV.

If that's the case, Then AIM-9M with JHMCS also also provides a limited off boresight capability, I concur not as advance as R-73 but it gets the job done by looking left or right with JHMCS.

Limited and that's the point! The seeker has a more narrow FOV to lock on the target and the lack of TVC makes it far less agile, which is why only the combination of JHMCS and an NG missile, AIM 9X, IRIS-T..., can take full advantage.

Here is a good read about HMS, which you might find interesting:

(google translated)

Helmet Mounted Display / Sight - HMD / S

...The first country to be able to point missiles air-air short range Fourth Generation were the Russians with his Arsenal Zh-3YM Schchel-3U-1 in the mid 80s. A crosshair is engaged in helmets ZSM-5 series. It was simply crosshairs passing basic data of engagement for the Vympel R-73 missile. The R-73 is capable of engaging targets at 45-60 degrees off the line of sight besides having supermanobrabilidade. This type of engagement became known as "High off-boresight" and allows gain advantage before it was only firing forward. The Schchel-3U was also used to point the radar and IRST MiG-29 and Su-27.

The ability of the Russian HMS became known after the fall of the Berlin Wall when a squadron of Luftwaffe (Jagdgeschweders 73 - JAG 73) passed complete with its MiG-29 to the west side. This allows us to test the full capacity of Russian fighters. The MiG-29 showed great capacity for close combat in relation to maneuverability and ability of R-73 compared to the AIM-9L / M indicated by radar. The big launch field allowed more firepower and could launch their missiles much earlier. These engagements resulted in a study that used the USAF F-15 and revalidated the results.

The less trained pilots may have an advantage with the use of HMD. The MiG-29 to R-73 allowed poorly trained pilots of the Warsaw Pact have superiority over the much more well-trained pilots NATO. The Western response was delayed with ASRAAM which further delayed when it was canceled. The only answer was the Python 4 appointed by HMS DASH Israel that equips its F-15 and F-16. The HMD now became a mandatory item in ACAS Fourth Generation along with Hobs missiles...

...With an HMD the pilot concentrates on the outside of the cabin and is less dependent on the HUD and instruments in the cockpit. A study shows that the Elbit DASH gives an advantage of 3 to 1, with two equipped with AIM-9L Sidewinder or equivalent aircraft. With missiles fourth or fifth generation the advantage rises to 9 to 1...

Google Übersetzer


Check the full article, very informative!

 

[Basel]

Whenever PAF F-16s & IAF Mig-29s met if air combat (God forbid) in future it will not fight of two air crafts but there will be much more than that so just comparing two air crafts is not good enough.

 

[duhastmish]

This is all meaningless. Two machines can not be compared in overall supremacy fight.
There are AWACS, radar , number of squadron ,trAining of pilot, block modal of jet, additional installations, context of battle. Location, oppositon country, and weapons installed.

 

[Basel]

for those who think Stealth can not be achieved when canards are used or canards are old stuff, here is link of sixth gen air craft concept of Boeing which have canards and its a stealth plane.

Boeing unveils updated F/A-XX sixth-gen fighter concept

image:

Now for those who think J-20 can't be a stealth plane because it has canards, please watch above pic and read link its designed by Boeing which is very good in making stealth planes and they have adopted canards for one of it 6th gen concept.

 

[MiG-21]

o'h the wikipedia, saviour of high schoolers.
There are THREE conflicting accounts.
1: He had a mid air freak collision with an Iraqi Mig-25 with the Foxbat coming at very high speed. The F/A-18 hornet just disintegrated in mid air.
2: It was shot down by a SAM hit.
3: It was shot down by a Foxbat.

There are conflicting accounts which support above theories. Therefore we will never know the truth.

What we do know for sure is that a Foxbat was knocked out by an F-16 later which became the first AMRAAM kill.

Lol.. yea right.. A mid air collision with an enemy aircraft during a war in the 90’s where the entire air was irradiated with radar. You astound me…

Coalition Fixed-Wing Attrition in Desert Storm

You do are aware that the same goes the other way around, don’t you. The Iraqis have claimed a lot more kills and reject or put out “conflicting accounts” of their own. Given the fact that they are fighting with a country which has a habit of lying through its teeth to FIGHT ENTIRE WARS based on lies and deception(lying about their losses is a piece of cake for them) Iraqi’s words hold the same value as the U.S.
Shall we take the Iraqi claims of shot downs?

Am I...atleast you should appreciate I did not post balloony information, will take you to LM link


<snip>

Chile, Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Poland, Portugal, Taiwan and Turkey.

What are you trying to prove? It will indeed perform well above expectations if the expectations are itself pretty low. Or the fact that it has all these advantages of weight reductions, faster processor times, and what not COMPARED TO 70’s or 1960’s computers.

Fact of the matter is, the mission computer is a 1988 year old dinosaur. So much for the claim of “20 year gap”.

I just wanted to say something in regards to Point 5 above. The Mig is in a situation where destructing is a forgone conclusion. However, with over 30 prospective targets, and apparently excellent platforms, shouldn't the Mig be able to fire all her BVW/WVR and down a couple of Teens???

You do are aware that the ‘30 aircrafts’ are flying with their radar’s off and getting the migs position from the AWACS, flying in the blind spot of the MiG’s radar and turning on their radar with their radar cone(search area) very narrow(the mode with the longest range but cannot search a wide area, because they don’t need to search as the AWACS has done that job for them), launching their missiles and killing it? This is THE VERY BASIC of air warfare using AWACS. I’m not even taking into account the jamming here, which further reduces the MiG’s radar range, which is further operating in a broader and wider search cone hence reducing its range.

The last time a war took place b/w India and Pakistan, India refused neutral arbitration because it had lost 2/3rd of it's Air Force. And I am hoping you have enough IQ to distinguish when a war is being fought with you and when a war is being fought internally.

Tell this “when a war is being fought internally” excuse to your moderator who is only concerned about “combat record”(whatever that means) without going into the details of it, and don’t forget to ask him the same phrase “hoping you have enough IQ to distinguish”.
Lets not go into your Pakistani textbook history and see some NEUTRAL accounts of that war shall we?
Indian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948
Pakistani Air-to-Air Victories
Shocked? You should be. See the number of lies and propaganda in white font color.

 

[MilSpec]

o'h the wikipedia, saviour of high schoolers.

There are THREE conflicting accounts.

1: He had a mid air freak collision with an Iraqi Mig-25 with the Foxbat coming at very high speed. The F/A-18 hornet just disintegrated in mid air.

2: It was shot down by a SAM hit.

3: It was shot down by a Foxbat.


There are conflicting accounts which support above theories. Therefore we will never know the truth.

What we do know for sure is that a Foxbat was knocked out by an F-16 later which became the first AMRAAM kill.

Same goes for the only F16 kill for a Mig 29, two F16C's were scrambled to intercept a single Mig29, there are conflicting reports for strela fatricide to Aim120 hit..... If you disregard conflicting reports, for all engagements, F16's have never scored a kill on mig29's then,

 

[trident2010]

Indian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948
Pakistani Air-to-Air Victories
Shocked? You should be. See the number of lies and propaganda in white font color.

Its like a white wash !! lolzz

 

[kingdurgaking]

Waste of bandwidth... both the countries know there strength and weakness... of the air-craft.. Mig-29 role is only to counter F-16 and thats why it is placed only in western borders... In case of war with PAF F-16 will face 29 before encountering MKI, so the winner will be who knows the weakness of other air-craft... IAF has more chance to know this... i am not sure about PAF

 

[trident2010]

Its good to see our Mig-29UPGs are more than enough to tackle with PAF F-16s. IAF may be won't even have to use big boy Su-30MKIs to sort PAF out.

 

[sancho]

@sancho

We do have AGM-88 HARMs, please update your list.

I will, when you show me a prove that PAF has it. Officially it wasn't part of the MLU package, nor of the B52 procurement and correct me if I'm wrong, but the older Block 15s wasn't able to use HARM.
But even if, the F16s can't compete with the weapon variety of JF 17 and that's what makes the latter much more capable and useful for PAF!

On the one hand you are pointing out the users limited point of view and on the other hand you are doing exactly the same. Perhaps it is not wise just to measure the Jets in a versus mode without realistic limitations or boundaries. One of the most important factor, apart from performance and radar statistics, of the Jets would be the BVR/WVR they carry. Second most important is the Jammer.

Not really, because then you would compare the performance of BVR vs BVR and then it goes into silly vs games again. My point however were that one can't ignore the circumstances of the combats, nor the fact that PAFs F16s have clear technical limitations.

The Mig with IRST, RWR, MAWS and HOBS missiles, provides propper 4 th generation techs and capabilities, which PAFs F16s simply don't have. So although both have MMRs and BVR missiles now, the Migs remain technically more advanced after the upgrade and that does gives them advantages in air combats, that can't be ignored nor simplyfied by saying, no Mig has scored a kill in history...
I even clearly stated that an F16 Block 52 of other operators without these limitations, will be overall more capable than the Mig, so it's not only the range of the radar, or the missile that is important, but the overall technical level of the fighter and that is in favour for IAFs Mig.

 

[MiG-21]

Its like a white wash !! lolzz

That white wash tells the professionalism of the military in question. See the number of whites in the IAF history. This is what happens when you have a military which is not under a civilian leader or under ANY checks or balances. In pakistan when the military lies, there is no one to catch them with their pants down, but here we have Babus, Politicians, RTI and the ever vigilant CAG. The military is answerable to these 4 entities.

 

[trident2010]

The Mig with IRST, RWR, MAWS and HOBS missiles, provides propper 4 th generation techs and capabilities, which PAFs F16s simply don't have. So although both have MMRs and BVR missiles now, the Migs remain technically more advanced after the upgrade and that does gives them advantages in air combats, that can't be ignored nor simplyfied by saying, no Mig has scored a kill in history...
I even clearly stated that an F16 Block 52 of other operators without these limitations, will be overall more capable than the Mig, so it's not only the range of the radar, or the missile that is important, but the overall technical level of the fighter and that is in favour for IAFs Mig.

This sums up the discussion in very clear and concise way !!

 

[sancho]

Sukhoi Dropped Canard design in Su 35 after trying them in Su 30. America not using it. India dropped the planned of Canard Tejas after wind tunnel test. Canards are certainly not futuristic designs.

The early Su 35 had canards to, it was deleted to reduce the RCS, since the 3D TVC increased the maneuverability anyway. For the EF it's the otherway around, which has a low RCS by design and uses the canard to improve manuverability, which is why the already developed 3D TVC is not needed. So both are features to add maneuverability, while the delta canard design is the more modern one.

 

[Kompromat]

@sancho l I don't need to show you any proofs. Checkout globalsecurity arms transfer lists. Until very recently most of our Indian folk claimed that PAF didn't have Mavericks.

PAF doesn't always publicize stuff it buys. We use Israeli made gear too, how many of them can you find on the internet? .. Zero.