France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.

[Viper0011.]

Are the paf now admitting that chinease current thunder has inferior radars and avionics since they want french upgrades.
Two can the Pakistanis stomach a estimated 2.5 billion dollar upgrades cost fior 100 thunders ie $25 million each.
The French systems cost twice the cost of a USA system and five times s cost of a chinease system

What a waste of disk space due to someone's personal issues with Pakistan. Have you even read through posts on this thread????? Or is the fact that the French kissed you good bye, without a French kiss hurting too much??

The French systems are being considered for the ME countries (its been discussed on many threads on here). Some ME and African countries (X-French colonies), are used to French equipment. BUT, have more Chinese influence on them at this time. After dealing with the Rafale drama with India, the French had a rude awakening like the Russians. They realized, whether India buys Rafales or not, they would've made a few billion by now from the Pakistanis, a couple of ME countries and a couple of African countries.
So, they are after that alternative market. Chinese influence, Pakistani-Chinese assembled product, Russian and French components. Everyone involved makes money. Can't get more cooperative and multinational than that

Which SAM's have been offered to pakistan?

Last reports I've read, they had HQ 8 and some 9 as FD-2000 (under serious silence). I think they got two batteries of FD-2000 already installed at "undisclosed" location!

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Are the paf now admitting that chinease current thunder has inferior radars and avionics since they want french upgrades.

Two can the Pakistanis stomach a estimated 2.5 billion dollar upgrades cost fior 100 thunders ie $25 million each.

The French systems cost twice the cost of a USA system and five times s cost of a chinease system

The French avionics are to target those countries which are going to replace their Mirage III / V / F-1's on the other hand these are also for those NATO countries that do not have the budget to procure Rafales / EFT / JAS or the F-16's. These also include those countries which are not under NATO but still fly the Russian fighter aircraft.

 

[MilSpec]

Last reports I've read, they had HQ 8 and some 9 as FD-2000 (under serious silence). I think they got two batteries of FD-2000 already installed at "undisclosed" location!

Let me rephrase, Which Russian SAM have been offered.

 

[Viper0011.]

Let me rephrase, Which Russian SAM have been offered.

Let me call Putin and wake him up. I'll ask his girlfriend that as he'll be grouchy to have woken up so early in the morning .

The answer....I don't know. They did offer various types and it was said by their own official. Someone else on here can probably answer it

 

[Storm Force]

The bottom line my Pakistani friends is this.

Any nation be it Russia or France or USA will offer you systems. Be it missles planes ships etc.

But they will want hard cash.

Something you people have neva had in abundance.and will neva have in volume like India has today.

Thus you will always be scraping around for cheap options.

And the French are not cheap

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

The bottom line my Pakistani friends is this.

Any nation be it Russia or France or USA will offer you systems. Be it missles planes ships etc.

But they will want hard cash.

Something you people have neva had in abundance.and will neva have in volume like India has today.

Thus you will always be scraping around for cheap options.

And the French are not cheap

We do have some rich friends that can gift all these to us.

 

[GURU DUTT]

That was begging if you remember and in return India choice US when they have money and that is why India don't have friend b/c now whole world know where India is standing



Thankyou Mastan bhai. When you click thanks on my post it give me moral boost.

well it was not begging but then as they say "chorro ko saare nazar aate hain chor" but we dint get it for freewe payed it thru barter system asUSSR then was short of food grains and we had some to spare so fair enof

as for aid wellwe took russian ,french and american help to develop owr educational , medical and industrial infra than wepons onli ... baki aap khud samjhdaar ho

 

[Taygibay]

@Storm Force You are right that French avionics are not cheap except that …

Viper and AceOTA already covered why and you came back to it. So :

When India ordered the MKI, it insisted on French eq. for a reason. Any self-respecting mili analysis outfit will confirm that the great mix of Ru, Il, Fr and Indian systems is one of the main reasons for the MKI's superlative value.
Do note that both Malaysia and Algeria ( not to be suspected of French loving by any means ) have done the same.

What's more, Russia itself looked at Thales products to make its jets better as far as nearly a decade back :
Thales' Odyssey - DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums
Do you think they did so just to spend excess rubles when they can pay their workers in vodka instead? *

Following your repeated argument concerning the price then, we know for sure that there is another reason for selecting these equipments which can either be :
-that the products are better than those they replace or
-that the products are acquired for independent sourcing from either Russia or China or the US.
Both, when applicable, are excellent reasons to pay more unless you like to fly as the underdog or you like to be a slave.

QED.

As an aside to assure you that my national preference is not the sole factor at play here, I wrote in this thread :
PAKISTAN'S AMAZING MIRAGES | Page 3
my complete admiration for the PAF's handling of its old Mirage III-V. I know it won't please the Indian in you but one has to admire any nation ( including yours or Iran, etc ) that substitutes ingenuity and hard work when cash or standard replacement ( no matter why ) isn't available. **

Unless PAF or PAC-K has suddenly gone inefficient, give them credit that if ( pending official confirmation from both sides, I'm still not convinced it is the case ) there is such a deal afoot, there is a rationale for it?

Just sayin' Tay.

* OK, admittedly, this is just a rumor

** It is very sad for a true milavia fan to watch great planes of all origins fall part on sandy unused airfields all over the world as their owners give up on maintaining a proper aerial capacity and national autonomy along with it.

 

[Viper0011.]

The bottom line my Pakistani friends is this.

Any nation be it Russia or France or USA will offer you systems. Be it missles planes ships etc.

But they will want hard cash.

Something you people have neva had in abundance.and will neva have in volume like India has today.

The amount of cash you had in abundance up till year 2000's is known to the world. You should go to cheapinternetwarriors.com and write these posts on there.

The amount of infrastructure development, energy and robotics research Pakistan has started to do with the Chinese investment, with Shale gas, iron, gold, copper and other minerals found in insanely large numbers, isn't hidden from the world. The only issue was the terrorism which the Pakistanis have now seriously started to root out.

With that, what's left for the world and with their government's economic reforms??? A high growth market waiting to be exploited by the billion dollars companies of the growth. Everyone wants a few billions of that juicy pie that you, yourself offered to the world as "cheap labor".

Sorry it hurts you, but three years from today, don't be surprised if Pakistan in negotiating the SAME Rafale you are pissing on today or something even more modern. The no cash days days were the 2015 and prior decade, going forward, a few billions wouldn't be an issue. In fact I have already read forecasts of Pakistan's defense budget by 2020 would surpass 10 billion dollars. By 2025, it'll be around 16-20 billion dollars as their Navy will need serious investment to keep their trade routes open from Gawader to Karachi.

 

[My-Analogous]

well it was not begging but then as they say "chorro ko saare nazar aate hain chor" but we dint get it for freewe payed it thru barter system asUSSR then was short of food grains and we had some to spare so fair enof

as for aid wellwe took russian ,french and american help to develop owr educational , medical and industrial infra than wepons onli ... baki aap khud samjhdaar ho

Your comments is like "Chor ki dari main Tinka". Russia have plenty of options for get wheat, they were having money, power and influence to get that. But typical Indian don't know the word Oblige. India still getting AID and by doing this they are still looting poor countries much needed money especially African countries and by doing this where India is standing Morally?

I tell you before also please go back to the topic.

 

[Basel]

Which SAM's have been offered to pakistan?

I have already posted about those in related thread, check it out.

 

[Shariq786]

will they teach the Pakistani engineers how to make these stuff indigenously ????

 

[wiseone2]

What a waste of disk space due to someone's personal issues with Pakistan. Have you even read through posts on this thread????? Or is the fact that the French kissed you good bye, without a French kiss hurting too much??

The French systems are being considered for the ME countries (its been discussed on many threads on here). Some ME and African countries (X-French colonies), are used to French equipment. BUT, have more Chinese influence on them at this time. After dealing with the Rafale drama with India, the French had a rude awakening like the Russians. They realized, whether India buys Rafales or not, they would've made a few billion by now from the Pakistanis, a couple of ME countries and a couple of African countries.
So, they are after that alternative market. Chinese influence, Pakistani-Chinese assembled product, Russian and French components. Everyone involved makes money. Can't get more cooperative and multinational than that



Last reports I've read, they had HQ 8 and some 9 as FD-2000 (under serious silence). I think they got two batteries of FD-2000 already installed at "undisclosed" location!

Why would they settle for selling components ? Selling the whole platform is more money
It is not like China respects intellectual property

What a waste of disk space due to someone's personal issues with Pakistan. Have you even read through posts on this thread????? Or is the fact that the French kissed you good bye, without a French kiss hurting too much??

The French systems are being considered for the ME countries (its been discussed on many threads on here). Some ME and African countries (X-French colonies), are used to French equipment. BUT, have more Chinese influence on them at this time. After dealing with the Rafale drama with India, the French had a rude awakening like the Russians. They realized, whether India buys Rafales or not, they would've made a few billion by now from the Pakistanis, a couple of ME countries and a couple of African countries.
So, they are after that alternative market. Chinese influence, Pakistani-Chinese assembled product, Russian and French components. Everyone involved makes money. Can't get more cooperative and multinational than that



Last reports I've read, they had HQ 8 and some 9 as FD-2000 (under serious silence). I think they got two batteries of FD-2000 already installed at "undisclosed" location!

HQ-8, FD-2000 are Chinese systems not Russian

There are many things of which you will never find a link but they are there and only known to people by word of mouth and Govt. and militaries keep silence to create ambiguity about them. There is a reason that details of Defense agreement between Russia and Pakistan is not publicly known.

Russia makes more money selling stuff to India. There is no reason for them to sell anything to Pakistan if India objects and provides valid reasons.

Russia has sold stuff to Pakistan - Mi-17 helicopters, parts for your Il-78 tankers & T-80 tanks, jet engines for the JF-17
Add Mi-35 attack helicopters to the list.

It is not like Pakistan can purchase huge amounts. 50 Su-30 MKI fighters will cost you $4 billion. Pakistan has not shown that they are willing to sign that kind of deals.

 

[Viper0011.]

Why would they settle for selling components ? Selling the whole platform is more money. It is not like China respects intellectual property

HQ-8, FD-2000 are Chinese systems not Russian


Russia makes more money selling stuff to India. There is no reason for them to sell anything to Pakistan if India objects and provides valid reasons.

Russia has sold stuff to Pakistan - Mi-17 helicopters, parts for your Il-78 tankers & T-80 tanks, jet engines for the JF-17
Add Mi-35 attack helicopters to the list.

It is not like Pakistan can purchase huge amounts. 50 Su-30 MKI fighters will cost you $4 billion. Pakistan has not shown that they are willing to sign that kind of deals.

There are people on this planet who live on "idiots paradise". On that paradise, reality is nowhere to be found!!

You are missing the strategy, by offering French, Russian and Chinese components, Pakistan can target a huge customer base who is used to any of the three's technologies and influence. So Pakistanis can sell it to places where a "made in Pakistan or China" product may not be feasible by itself. Similarly, the French or the Russians can sell equipment to countries where alone French or Russian products may not be as welcomed alone due to certain affiliations, say countries loyal to China or good friends with Pakistan. So everyone knows they'll gain more customers and money.

The JFT's international scope is to replace a part of thousands of Mig's and F4/5's. So if the JFT can be sold in numbers say 500-1000 (highly possible in long term with the French, Russian, Chinese option), that's MANY billions for each of them.

PLUS it sets up advance aviation industry in Pakistan. Do you think they may be able to TOT or design a totally new platform from Russia or China if they had extra 10 billion for research??? Absolutely, that's where this is headed.

Yon can mark my word, whether it's Russia or the French, whether you pay them 20 billion per order or not, you are no longer going to be able to counter the Pakistanis and lobby the French or the Russians to say no. Specially in the next three years when cash starts to become abundant. The world is over the 2010's, and the big giant India is....well just another market. Attractive but not so much that you kick away other emerging markets for them. India watches out for her interest and so do the French, the Russians and all.

 

[wiseone2]

There are people on this planet who live on "idiots paradise". On that paradise, reality is nowhere to be found!!

You are missing the strategy, by offering French, Russian and Chinese components, Pakistan can target a huge customer base who is used to any of the three's technologies and influence. So Pakistanis can sell it to places where a "made in Pakistan or China" product may not be feasible by itself. Similarly, the French or the Russians can sell equipment to countries where alone French or Russian products may not be as welcomed alone due to certain affiliations, say countries loyal to China or good friends with Pakistan. So everyone knows they'll gain more customers and money.

The JFT's international scope is to replace a part of thousands of Mig's and F4/5's. So if the JFT can be sold in numbers say 500-1000 (highly possible in long term with the French, Russian, Chinese option), that's MANY billions for each of them.

PLUS it sets up advance aviation industry in Pakistan. Do you think they may be able to TOT or design a totally new platform from Russia or China if they had extra 10 billion for research??? Absolutely, that's where this is headed.

Yon can mark my word, whether it's Russia or the French, whether you pay them 20 billion per order or not, you are no longer going to be able to counter the Pakistanis and lobby the French or the Russians to say no. Specially in the next three years when cash starts to become abundant. The world is over the 2010's, and the big giant India is....well just another market. Attractive but not so much that you kick away other emerging markets for them. India watches out for her interest and so do the French, the Russians and all.

Name countries that will not purchase a weapon from Russia and will purchase them from Pakistan.

Unless the money selling to Pakistan is in the billion of dollars a lot of countries are not going to sell to Pakistan. Unless Pakistan reallocates or increases money in their defense budget Pakistan is going to have 1-2 billion dollars to spend on equipment. That is not a lot considering a good chunk will going to China.

You do not need thousands of MiGs and F-4/F-5s. several 3rd generation aircraft are being replaced by one fourth or fifth generation aircraft.