France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.

[pursuit of happiness]

There are people on this planet who live on "idiots paradise". On that paradise, reality is nowhere to be found!!

You are missing the strategy, by offering French, Russian and Chinese components, Pakistan can target a huge customer base who is used to any of the three's technologies and influence. So Pakistanis can sell it to places where a "made in Pakistan or China" product may not be feasible by itself. Similarly, the French or the Russians can sell equipment to countries where alone French or Russian products may not be as welcomed alone due to certain affiliations, say countries loyal to China or good friends with Pakistan. So everyone knows they'll gain more customers and money.

The JFT's international scope is to replace a part of thousands of Mig's and F4/5's. So if the JFT can be sold in numbers say 500-1000 (highly possible in long term with the French, Russian, Chinese option), that's MANY billions for each of them.

PLUS it sets up advance aviation industry in Pakistan. Do you think they may be able to TOT or design a totally new platform from Russia or China if they had extra 10 billion for research??? Absolutely, that's where this is headed.

Yon can mark my word, whether it's Russia or the French, whether you pay them 20 billion per order or not, you are no longer going to be able to counter the Pakistanis and lobby the French or the Russians to say no. Specially in the next three years when cash starts to become abundant. The world is over the 2010's, and the big giant India is....well just another market. Attractive but not so much that you kick away other emerging markets for them. India watches out for her interest and so do the French, the Russians and all.

--
please explain how ?
as there are many hows in your assesment
this is one of them

 

[New World]

Two things for which i am willing to forgive Pakistan Cricket team's fallacy:
1-Pakistan JF-17 gets the much needed western avionics and weapons
2-Pakistan buys the UAE Mirage 2000 fleet.

Is UAE's mirage 2000 are comming to Pak?

 

[gau8av]

tl;dr the whole thread but this is still speculation, right ?

if so, bookmarked, will hopefully return here to troll once we sign the deal and **** hopes get torpedoed.

 

[wiseone2]

Is UAE's mirage 2000 are comming to Pak?

it is highly unlikely UAE will approve the transfer with opposition from USA/India/France.

 

[Viper0011.]

Name countries that will not purchase a weapon from Russia and will purchase them from Pakistan.

You do not need thousands of MiGs and F-4/F-5s. several 3rd generation aircraft are being replaced by one fourth or fifth generation aircraft.

Well, how about you rethink this a little bit and write down some names? It'll establish some geo-political strategy credentials on your end.

Let's see, KSA (one of the largest weapons purchaser / importer in the world right now), won't buy anything air worthy from Russia or China. But if the JFT is advanced enough that it has French avionics and missiles, to help Pakistan's aviation industry, it can easily buy 40-100 JFT's, just to form numbers or even as a low / mid level tier and not cough twice.

But that number, whether 40, 60 or a 100, will be big enough of a return for Pakistan to further advance it's industry and tech. Turkey, the UAE and a few others can easily do the same for Pakistan.

There are many European countries like Serbia, Lithuania, Greece, etc, who were Russian friendly during the times of the Eastern Europe.....but now with the European Union in place, life's changed for Russia, and has become a LOT more difficult, (if you don't follow the news).

A platform like the JFT will provide significant advantage to some of the poor European Union countries, who can try the JFT in a cost effective manner, but will still get Rafale quality avionics and weapons integration capability, even at a smaller payload level, still much better cost to capability ratio, vs. the actual Rafale or EFT purchase that some can't afford.

Next, there are thousands of Mig's and F4/5's and Chinese versions of jets like the F-7, etc, which need replacements. And not all countries can buy the later 3rd Gen or 4th Gen jets, and not many countries offer high end BVR missile and JDAM, ASM, JSOW type capability in the price tag you can get a new JFT for, with said capabilities. So you don't need thousands of JFT's sold and no one's said that. But mere 500-1000 overall sold, long term, is very much doable, and enough to change the Pakistani aviation industry to a much higher and advanced levels. The profits from sold jets will be used for further r&d and in coming up with newer platforms.

We can all play fools here and write stuff because people like you have a genetic issue with regards to hating or bashing anything the Pakistanis do, but it doesn't change the reality about the serious impact the JFT brings to the Pakistani aviation industry.

 

[That Guy]

it is highly unlikely UAE will approve the transfer with opposition from USA/India/France.

Pakistan is already the largest flier of French mirage fighters outside of France, and France has always been willing to sell to Pakistan. The USA is still a strategic ally, and not, despite Indian hopes, going to abandon Pakistan. India doesn't really matter here.

Really, think about it. Why would the US block a sale when they approved the transfer of Jordanian F-16s to Pakistan not too long ago? Or the French, who still get quite a bit of profit from selling spare parts to Pakistan?

Don't pass your wishes off as fact, or even educated opinion.

 

[Viper0011.]

it is highly unlikely UAE will approve the transfer with opposition from USA/India/France.

Lol, take out the India part. You may be big in population and technical labor, you are definitely no where near the French or the American influence!! This is fool's paradise to start including yourself in the big boy club. Still a decade and a half away!!

Also, no ME country out of Iran or a couple others will take India over Pak. Not happening.

 

[Taygibay]

...but now with the European Union in place, life's changed for Russia

And Ukraine didn't help all that much either …

Tay.

 

[Storm Force]

To those fools following this thread.

India paid France $3.6 billion to upgrade its 52 mirage2000 fighters.

2.4 billion for the upgrade & a separate deal of $1.2 billion for weapons

Government okays $2.4 bn Mirage-2000 upgrade

Over $40 million per plane

YES FRENCH HAVE AMAZING systems.

And the THUNDER lacks cutting edge radars EW suites & missles BUT what will cost ???????

AND DO YOU HAVE THE FINANCE TO PAY OVER $40 MILION EACH PER JET.

And know you wont be getting it done on the cheap

" This is why I am 99% certain this deal is either fake news or wilol just collap[se like it did in 2011

 

[p4kistan]

To those fools following this thread.

India paid France $3.6 billion to upgrade its 52 mirage2000 fighters.

2.4 billion for the upgrade & a separate deal of $1.2 billion for weapons

Government okays $2.4 bn Mirage-2000 upgrade

Over $40 million per plane

YES FRENCH HAVE AMAZING systems.

And the THUNDER lacks cutting edge radars EW suites & missles BUT what will cost ???????

AND DO YOU HAVE THE FINANCE TO PAY OVER $40 MILION EACH PER JET.

And know you wont be getting it done on the cheap

" This is why I am 99% certain this deal is either fake news or wilol just collap[se like it did in 2011

Just because you get ripped off by the Russians & French doesn't mean the rest of the world is brainless.

What we are after won't cost that much and if it did we always find a way.

Stay rest assured in matters of security we will find the funds, we will eat grass if need be or sell a few nukes LOL.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Something you people have neva had in abundance.and will neva have in volume like India has today.

Thus you will always be scraping around for cheap options.

And the French are not cheap

Marking!!!

 

[wiseone2]

Well, how about you rethink this a little bit and write down some names? It'll establish some geo-political strategy credentials on your end.

Let's see, KSA (one of the largest weapons purchaser / importer in the world right now), won't buy anything air worthy from Russia or China. But if the JFT is advanced enough that it has French avionics and missiles, to help Pakistan's aviation industry, it can easily buy 40-100 JFT's, just to form numbers or even as a low / mid level tier and not cough twice.

But that number, whether 40, 60 or a 100, will be big enough of a return for Pakistan to further advance it's industry and tech. Turkey, the UAE and a few others can easily do the same for Pakistan.

There are many European countries like Serbia, Lithuania, Greece, etc, who were Russian friendly during the times of the Eastern Europe.....but now with the European Union in place, life's changed for Russia, and has become a LOT more difficult, (if you don't follow the news).

A platform like the JFT will provide significant advantage to some of the poor European Union countries, who can try the JFT in a cost effective manner, but will still get Rafale quality avionics and weapons integration capability, even at a smaller payload level, still much better cost to capability ratio, vs. the actual Rafale or EFT purchase that some can't afford.

Next, there are thousands of Mig's and F4/5's and Chinese versions of jets like the F-7, etc, which need replacements. And not all countries can buy the later 3rd Gen or 4th Gen jets, and not many countries offer high end BVR missile and JDAM, ASM, JSOW type capability in the price tag you can get a new JFT for, with said capabilities. So you don't need thousands of JFT's sold and no one's said that. But mere 500-1000 overall sold, long term, is very much doable, and enough to change the Pakistani aviation industry to a much higher and advanced levels. The profits from sold jets will be used for further r&d and in coming up with newer platforms.

We can all play fools here and write stuff because people like you have a genetic issue with regards to hating or bashing anything the Pakistanis do, but it doesn't change the reality about the serious impact the JFT brings to the Pakistani aviation industry.

Let us go over your points one by one

1. You are making a blanket statement here
" Let's see, KSA (one of the largest weapons purchaser / importer in the world right now), won't buy anything air worthy from Russia or China. "

Saudi Arabia has purchased intermediate range ballistic missiles from China. This was during the 1980s. Why would they not do business ?
China–Saudi Arabia relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

UAE, Jordan have ordered state of the art SAM systems from Russia
Pantsir-S1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why would China and Russia miss a chance to improve their relations with Saudi Arabia ?

"There are many European countries like Serbia, Lithuania, Greece, etc, who were Russian friendly during the times of the Eastern Europe.....but now with the European Union in place, life's changed for Russia, and has become a LOT more difficult, (if you don't follow the news)."

2. Let us go over the case of smaller European countries.

Lithuania will order American equipment to stay on the good graces of Uncle Sam. Greek air force is completely Western aircraft. Serbia has no air force.

What makes you think some of these smaller European countries cannot build their own cheap aircraft ? Serbia has high quality engineers to build their own aircraft. They have better access to Western technology if they do not involve Pakistan or China. Czech Republic makes the L-39/L-159 jet trainers.

" Next, there are thousands of Mig's and F4/5's and Chinese versions of jets like the F-7, etc, which need replacements. And not all countries can buy the later 3rd Gen or 4th Gen jets, and not many countries offer high end BVR missile and JDAM, ASM, JSOW type capability in the price tag you can get a new JFT for, with said capabilities. So you don't need thousands of JFT's sold and no one's said that. But mere 500-1000 overall sold, long term, is very much doable, and enough to change the Pakistani aviation industry to a much higher and advanced levels. The profits from sold jets will be used for further r&d and in coming up with newer platforms."

the whole idea of selling jf-17 to 3rd countries has been around for 5+ years. i have not seen a single deal done.

how many of these MIGs and F-4/5s were acquired without foreign aid ?

You can sell some of these aircraft to rich third world countries that have unsavory records. You can rest assured that Russia and France will not get involved unless there is a lot of $$$.

For starters you can try to sell the jf-17 to Iran and see what kind of heat you get into

Pakistan is already the largest flier of French mirage fighters outside of France, and France has always been willing to sell to Pakistan. The USA is still a strategic ally, and not, despite Indian hopes, going to abandon Pakistan. India doesn't really matter here.

Really, think about it. Why would the US block a sale when they approved the transfer of Jordanian F-16s to Pakistan not too long ago? Or the French, who still get quite a bit of profit from selling spare parts to Pakistan?

Don't pass your wishes off as fact, or even educated opinion.

UAE is not transfering F-16 and Mirage-2000 without American or French approval. If it has advanced avionics it ain't coming to Pakistan.

Pakistan has Mirage III and Mirage V. When did France deliver the last Mirage III or Mirage-5 to the Pakistan air force ?
Most of them were 2nd hand planes from Australia etc.

Qatar sold Mirage-2000 to India over Pakistan in 2005.

Lol, take out the India part. You may be big in population and technical labor, you are definitely no where near the French or the American influence!! This is fool's paradise to start including yourself in the big boy club. Still a decade and a half away!!

Also, no ME country out of Iran or a couple others will take India over Pak. Not happening.

Qatar offered Mirage-2000. Nobody took them.
Update on Qatari Mirage 2000-5

Just because you get ripped off by the Russians & French doesn't mean the rest of the world is brainless.

What we are after won't cost that much and if it did we always find a way.

Stay rest assured in matters of security we will find the funds, we will eat grass if need be or sell a few nukes LOL.

you are eating grass

you do not have too many buyers (if any) for your nukes

 

[p4kistan]

Let us go over your points one by one

1. You are making a blanket statement here
" Let's see, KSA (one of the largest weapons purchaser / importer in the world right now), won't buy anything air worthy from Russia or China. "

Saudi Arabia has purchased intermediate range ballistic missiles from China. This was during the 1980s. Why would they not do business ?
China–Saudi Arabia relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

UAE, Jordan have ordered state of the art SAM systems from Russia
Pantsir-S1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why would China and Russia miss a chance to improve their relations with Saudi Arabia ?

"There are many European countries like Serbia, Lithuania, Greece, etc, who were Russian friendly during the times of the Eastern Europe.....but now with the European Union in place, life's changed for Russia, and has become a LOT more difficult, (if you don't follow the news)."

2. Let us go over the case of smaller European countries.

Lithuania will order American equipment to stay on the good graces of Uncle Sam. Greek air force is completely Western aircraft. Serbia has no air force.

What makes you think some of these smaller European countries cannot build their own cheap aircraft ? Serbia has high quality engineers to build their own aircraft. They have better access to Western technology if they do not involve Pakistan or China. Czech Republic makes the L-39/L-159 jet trainers.

" Next, there are thousands of Mig's and F4/5's and Chinese versions of jets like the F-7, etc, which need replacements. And not all countries can buy the later 3rd Gen or 4th Gen jets, and not many countries offer high end BVR missile and JDAM, ASM, JSOW type capability in the price tag you can get a new JFT for, with said capabilities. So you don't need thousands of JFT's sold and no one's said that. But mere 500-1000 overall sold, long term, is very much doable, and enough to change the Pakistani aviation industry to a much higher and advanced levels. The profits from sold jets will be used for further r&d and in coming up with newer platforms."

the whole idea of selling jf-17 to 3rd countries has been around for 5+ years. i have not seen a single deal done.

how many of these MIGs and F-4/5s were acquired without foreign aid ?

You can sell some of these aircraft to rich third world countries that have unsavory records. You can rest assured that Russia and France will not get involved unless there is a lot of $$$.

For starters you can try to sell the jf-17 to Iran and see what kind of heat you get into



UAE is not transfering F-16 and Mirage-2000 without American or French approval. If it has advanced avionics it ain't coming to Pakistan.

Pakistan has Mirage III and Mirage V. When did France deliver the last Mirage III or Mirage-5 to the Pakistan air force ?
Most of them were 2nd hand planes from Australia etc.

Qatar sold Mirage-2000 to India over Pakistan in 2005.



Qatar offered Mirage-2000. Nobody took them.
Update on Qatari Mirage 2000-5



you are eating grass

you do not have too many buyers (if any) for your nukes

LOL how would you know?

Which variety am i eating, its quite nutritious

No buyers for nukes? Clearly shows you how deluded you are. I was being sarcastic but if they were for sale i'm telling you the list would be endless.

 

[That Guy]

UAE is not transfering F-16 and Mirage-2000 without American or French approval. If it has advanced avionics it ain't coming to Pakistan.

Pakistan has Mirage III and Mirage V. When did France deliver the last Mirage III or Mirage-5 to the Pakistan air force ?
Most of them were 2nd hand planes from Australia etc.

Qatar sold Mirage-2000 to India over Pakistan in 2005.

Have you ever heard of the ROSE project? France helped Pakistan with it. That was in 2004.

The reason why Pakistan didn't get Mirage-2000 was because Pakistan didn't have the type before. Adding it would just bring more complication to maintenance, thus raising costs. Pakistan has already gotten advanced avionics on mirage fighters. In fact, Pakistani mirage ROSE fighters are arguably the most advanced versions of the type in the world, mostly thanks to France helping Pakistan upgrade it's fleet.

Pakistan has also bought F-16s from Jordan, which are going to be upgraded to block 52 standard in Turkey, all of this was done with the approval of the US just last year (2014).

Pakistan receives 'a squadron' of surplus Jordanian F-16s - IHS Jane's 360

With US approval, arguably the entire Pakistani F-16 fleet is currently block 52+ standard.

You still haven't said why France or the US would block a sale to Pakistan, and as I've just shown, you don't know what you're talking about. France and the US are and have always been willing to sell to Pakistan. Don't pass your dreams off as reality.

 

[wiseone2]

Have you ever heard of the ROSE project? France helped Pakistan with it. That was in 2004.

The reason why Pakistan didn't get Mirage-2000 was because Pakistan didn't have the type before. Adding it would just bring more complication to maintenance, thus raising costs. Pakistan has already gotten advanced avionics on mirage fighters. In fact, Pakistani mirage ROSE fighters are arguably the most advanced versions of the type in the world, mostly thanks to France helping Pakistan upgrade it's fleet.

Pakistan has also bought F-16s from Jordan, which are going to be upgraded to block 52 standard in Turkey, all of this was done with the approval of the US just last year (2014).

Pakistan receives 'a squadron' of surplus Jordanian F-16s - IHS Jane's 360

With US approval, arguably the entire Pakistani F-16 fleet is currently block 52+ standard.

You still haven't said why France or the US would block a sale to Pakistan, and as I've just shown, you don't know what you're talking about. France and the US are and have always been willing to sell to Pakistan. Don't pass your dreams off as reality.

You are contradicting yourself -
"The reason why Pakistan didn't get Mirage-2000 was because Pakistan didn't have the type before. "
Why would Pakistan try to acquire them from UAE ?

The UAE F-16 are at higher avionics block than the ones the PAF has. You have not shown any valid information that USA will approve it

LOL how would you know?

Which variety am i eating, its quite nutritious

No buyers for nukes? Clearly shows you how deluded you are. I was being sarcastic but if they were for sale i'm telling you the list would be endless.

I was being sacrastic about grass eating

the market for nukes is zero unless you want to sell to terrorists