Current state of PDF - Nostalgia of an Indian Member

[Zarvan]

I agree we need to bring Indian members back.

 

[HRK]

I agree we need to bring Indian members back.

Someone is stopping them ....??

 

[Kompromat]

We still abide by our forum values, the only difference is that we have extensively ramped up moderation because of reasons a veteran member would understand. We are not going to create a dystopian platform, it will remain what it always has been. We still promote free speech, public debates, and knowledge sharing. We still protect the identities of our members, Pakistanis or international members.

Speaking as a member and not as an admin. I believe we have created a cleaner and safer environment for women on the forum. We welcome all minority groups and continue to criticize the authorities where its due.

 

[Shane]

I first visited PDF by around 2010-11, lurked for around 4 yrs before officially joining in 2015. It was quite a bit of fun as well as rewarding experience debating, arguing and even trolling sometimes.

At the same time though i hate to say it, community in PDF also influenced my opinions about Pakistanis in general as it is one of the few forums where I could interact with them though majority of them here seem to expats. As times changed, current affairs were variable and the direction PDF as a forum took also changed significantly.

PDF went from being an international forum with free exchange of news, ideas and opinions to one biased in favor of Pakistanis by the time I started commenting and it was in mid 2018 that it went to being a purely domestic forum populated by Pakistani narrative and tolerant exclusively to it.

I am sure all members be it Pakistani, Indian, American, European, Turkish or even Chinese have noticed this. As long as discussion in the forum is not against the domestic Pakistani Narrative, it is tolerated otherwise excluded emphatically so in case of us Indians.

Now there is nothing wrong in it, every forum has the right to decide the audience it caters to but at the same time for us Indian members it is a source of loss as we have have mostly lost a place to engage with Pakistanis with dignity.

The funny thing is that if Forum Administration was gunning for members and advertising revenue (my assumption) the new direction has had the opposite effect.

Well thats it for me, I will continue lurking and hope things turn for better here and I would have an opportunity to engage in fruitful discussions once again with my neighbors.

I solicit everyone's comment on this without hypocrisy or bias, I am fully aware that as a guest I have no right to impose but for old time's sake let's have an honest discussion about direction PDF is taking. I hope mods would tolerate this thread.

Ciao

@Joe Shearer @Oscar @Horus @Levina @Nilgiri @Imran Khan @Beast @Hellfire @scorpionx @jbgt90 @WAJsal @waj @VCheng

Welcome to the more aware PDF.

I'm a member since 2007. I've literally been at the receiving end of deleted posts and pre warnings at the behest of lafangay senior Indian trolls here who always used to get a favorable hand from moderators even until recently.

So what changed the mods policy?
An increasingly extremist, anti-Pakistan Indian narrative has literally forced their hand, at least this is what I feel has happened.

I think the extremist Indian narrative has triggered the realization that such fifth generation warfare and countering all aspects of its onslaught against Pakistan's narrative needed a consistant, equal and opposite response.

As long as the moderate Indian narrative remains vulnerable and subjugate to the extremist Indian narrative, expect nothing else but a constant war like atmosphere as it reflects in all spheres of life and no less here on PDF.

PDF is still much better than any comparable Indian forum.

The behavior of Pakistanis has changed.. yes.. I agree.. and Indian trolls have mainly contributed to it. Just like how they have ruined their own forum such as Bharat Rakshak, they tried hard to ruin this forum and have partially succeeded in that as well in my opinion.

 

[war&peace]

This is not about writing a book, but having a meaningful discussion. Most TTA's here are not authors, they are simply best in their respective fields.

My bad, I forget who I was talking to... That was an analogy...Do I need to explain that?

 

[Cookie Monster]

I first visited PDF by around 2010-11, lurked for around 4 yrs before officially joining in 2015. It was quite a bit of fun as well as rewarding experience debating, arguing and even trolling sometimes.

At the same time though i hate to say it, community in PDF also influenced my opinions about Pakistanis in general as it is one of the few forums where I could interact with them though majority of them here seem to expats. As times changed, current affairs were variable and the direction PDF as a forum took also changed significantly.

PDF went from being an international forum with free exchange of news, ideas and opinions to one biased in favor of Pakistanis by the time I started commenting and it was in mid 2018 that it went to being a purely domestic forum populated by Pakistani narrative and tolerant exclusively to it.

I am sure all members be it Pakistani, Indian, American, European, Turkish or even Chinese have noticed this. As long as discussion in the forum is not against the domestic Pakistani Narrative, it is tolerated otherwise excluded emphatically so in case of us Indians.

Now there is nothing wrong in it, every forum has the right to decide the audience it caters to but at the same time for us Indian members it is a source of loss as we have have mostly lost a place to engage with Pakistanis with dignity.

The funny thing is that if Forum Administration was gunning for members and advertising revenue (my assumption) the new direction has had the opposite effect.

Well thats it for me, I will continue lurking and hope things turn for better here and I would have an opportunity to engage in fruitful discussions once again with my neighbors.

I solicit everyone's comment on this without hypocrisy or bias, I am fully aware that as a guest I have no right to impose but for old time's sake let's have an honest discussion about direction PDF is taking. I hope mods would tolerate this thread.

Ciao

@Joe Shearer @Oscar @Horus @Levina @Nilgiri @Imran Khan @Beast @Hellfire @scorpionx @jbgt90 @WAJsal @waj @VCheng

I agree with u in that the quality of the forum isn't the same as it used to be years back. I myself have lurked around much longer than I've been a member here. However I disagree with u in that this has become a "Pakistani" forum. In my observation it's more so overrun by trolls while serious/mannered members have either left or hardly participate anymore.

By trolls here I mean ppl who flamebait, they believe in some fantasies and peddle their views(intentionally or unintentionally) that are not based in reality(merely bcuz of chest thumping nationalism). In case of Pakistanis and Indians it is obvious...and a much lengthier discussion. In case of other nationalities I haven't paid too close an attention but there are still glimpses one can find.
- Indians/Vietnamese/Western(especially from US) seem to bash on China about things like stealing/copying tech or making cheap knock offs. This in turn provokes Chinese members.
- Some Chinese members here tend to promote/bring up/talk about unconfirmed things(like eg that lengthy discussion of J20 using a different engine) without any proof...and they want everyone to believe it.
- Arabs are anti Iran(obviously) and vice versa
- Bangladeshis here are either anti Pak and pro India or anti India and pro Pak.

There are other such examples of these things and the mods try their best to keep these things from happening and be fair. This however doesn't please everyone bcuz everyone expects the mods to side with them. Recently a Chinese member made a thread about leaving bcuz he thought the mods here were being unfair towards Chinese and siding with Turks regarding the Xinjiang issue. Everyone expects their line of thought and their reality to be upheld, which is impossible bcuz there is only one reality and the rest are delusions. Talking about delusions...this brings me to the lengthier discussion of Indian/Pak trollfest.

I've seen a correlation between the rise of chest thumping BJP/RSS hindutva narrative and hordes of cheap classless Indian trolls joining this forum(or maybe it's the same few with multiple IDs). They hold the same worldview that's taught to them..."India is mighty, Pakistan and China don't stand a chance against India, Pakistan is a terrorist/failed state, Pakistan is poor while India is rich, etc." It's fine if they want to believe that and keep to themselves but they don't. This in turn invites a backlash from serious and troll Pakistani members. There are Indian members here who so dutyfully start threads on everything that portrays Pak economy in a bad light that it makes u wonder where do they find the time in their actual lives. This invites a response like Pakistani members constantly opening rape threads to show India in a bad light.

So this whole blame game of "we r mistreated" by any nationality here especially the Indians doesn't have a leg to stand on. Don't play the victim card when Indian trolls are equally responsible for the state of things.

As for trying to bring the quality of the forum back up and addressing the issue of idiotic members here. I've proposed a way to award "prestige points" to members(by other members) based on their posts. Just like how there can be certain sections limited to only senior members...this would allow to put a minimum limit of prestige points on a thread. A member must have that minimum number of the prestige points in order to participate and contribute. The reason this might work better than "senior, elite, etc" member status is bcuz it wouldn't be based on the number of posts...rather quality of posts. I've seen members here with just a few hundred posts and trolls having elite status. With prestige points...ppl(other members) can award it based on the content of the post(of a serious member who adds valuable contributions). Overtime serious members will accumulate enough...while trolls would struggle. This would allow to essentially quarantine trolls to low prestige threads...while high prestige threads would have civilized/serious debate. Even if somehow trolls give each other prestige or make multiple accounts...not only would it take great effort on their part...mods can easily step in and just ban that account and all the efforts of that troll would be in vain.

 

[VCheng]

I've proposed a way to award "prestige points" to members(by other members) based on their posts.

This will only ensure blatant misuse to select only posters with certain preferred viewpoints. Not a good idea, except of course if the goal is to create an even better echo chamber as desired by the management.

 

[Cookie Monster]

This will only ensure blatant misuse to select only posters with certain preferred viewpoints. Not a good idea, except of course if the goal is to create an even better echo chamber as desired by the management.

That's a democratic system im proposing. It would give every member the power to award prestige points...including u. If however it still happens to be that certain viewpoints are favored over others...that just means that's what the majority of ppl(forum members) have decided. Therefore this system carries with it the same risks any democracy does. Do u have a problem with a democratic system? Trying to pose as Socrates?

 

[VCheng]

That's a democratic system im proposing. It would give every member the power to award prestige points...including u. If however it still happens to be that certain viewpoints are favored over others...that just means that's what the majority of ppl(forum members) have decided. Therefore this system carries with it the same risks any democracy does. Do u have a problem with a democratic system? Trying to pose as Socrates?

Assuming the points are awarded fairly. Big assumption.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Assuming the points are awarded fairly. Big assumption.

It's just like liking a post. Every member be it a senior member, elite member, think tank or whatever...all get to award the same number...same limit per post. One can't continuously keep giving points to their favored member on one of their posts.

It will then come down to the mindset of ppl here. Do they want to differentiate between serious members here vs trolls? Even if it means giving prestige points to someone who holds a different opinion than they do? I think it should just be based on whether a post contributes to a discussion qualitatively regardless of the differing viewpoint. If ppl operate with this mindset wanting quality separated from trolling then in almost no time quality members will have a ton of prestige points while trolls would be quarantined into low prestige threads flamebaiting each other.

 

[VCheng]

It's just like liking a post. Every member be it a senior member, elite member, think tank or whatever...all get to award the same number...same limit per post. One can't continuously keep giving points to their favored member on one of their posts.

It will then come down to the mindset of ppl here. Do they want to differentiate between serious members here vs trolls? Even if it means giving prestige points to someone who holds a different opinion than they do? I think it should just be based on whether a post contributes to a discussion qualitatively regardless of the differing viewpoint. If ppl operate with this mindset wanting quality separated from trolling then in almost no time quality members will have a ton of prestige points while trolls would be quarantined into low prestige threads flamebaiting each other.

As with government, members here will definitely get the forum they deserve. I would love to see how this plan works out in actual practice.

 

[Cookie Monster]

As with government, members here will definitely get the forum they deserve. I would love to see how this plan works out in actual practice.

Yes at least that way users here won't be able to complain about trolls and that the forum used to be better and now it sucks...bcuz with that they will have the power to guide it in the direction they want...if it goes down the path they don't like...only they themselves are responsible...and only they themselves can get it out of that mess and make it better.

 

[VCheng]

Yes at least that way users here won't be able to complain about trolls and that the forum used to be better and now it sucks...bcuz with that they will have the power to guide it in the direction they want...if it goes down the path they don't like...only they themselves are responsible...and only they themselves can get it out of that mess and make it better.

As I said above, how this plan works out in actual practice will be interesting to watch.

 

[war&peace]

Assuming the points are awarded fairly. Big assumption.

Nothing is fair in democracy... but still it better than other systems. Current system is even more shrouded in the mystery.
I'm on StackOverflow and among the top contributors and hence ranked among highest because I have provided solutions to complex questions in very short time.
That is the most fair system so far but that's a different system. Rest on twitter, the more followers you have, the more likes you will regardless of the quality of the tweet.

 

[Spectre]

I agree with u in that the quality of the forum isn't the same as it used to be years back. I myself have lurked around much longer than I've been a member here. However I disagree with u in that this has become a "Pakistani" forum. In my observation it's more so overrun by trolls while serious/mannered members have either left or hardly participate anymore.

By trolls here I mean ppl who flamebait, they believe in some fantasies and peddle their views(intentionally or unintentionally) that are not based in reality(merely bcuz of chest thumping nationalism). In case of Pakistanis and Indians it is obvious...and a much lengthier discussion. In case of other nationalities I haven't paid too close an attention but there are still glimpses one can find.
- Indians/Vietnamese/Western(especially from US) seem to bash on China about things like stealing/copying tech or making cheap knock offs. This in turn provokes Chinese members.
- Some Chinese members here tend to promote/bring up/talk about unconfirmed things(like eg that lengthy discussion of J20 using a different engine) without any proof...and they want everyone to believe it.
- Arabs are anti Iran(obviously) and vice versa
- Bangladeshis here are either anti Pak and pro India or anti India and pro Pak.

There are other such examples of these things and the mods try their best to keep these things from happening and be fair. This however doesn't please everyone bcuz everyone expects the mods to side with them. Recently a Chinese member made a thread about leaving bcuz he thought the mods here were being unfair towards Chinese and siding with Turks regarding the Xinjiang issue. Everyone expects their line of thought and their reality to be upheld, which is impossible bcuz there is only one reality and the rest are delusions. Talking about delusions...this brings me to the lengthier discussion of Indian/Pak trollfest.

I've seen a correlation between the rise of chest thumping BJP/RSS hindutva narrative and hordes of cheap classless Indian trolls joining this forum(or maybe it's the same few with multiple IDs). They hold the same worldview that's taught to them..."India is mighty, Pakistan and China don't stand a chance against India, Pakistan is a terrorist/failed state, Pakistan is poor while India is rich, etc." It's fine if they want to believe that and keep to themselves but they don't. This in turn invites a backlash from serious and troll Pakistani members. There are Indian members here who so dutyfully start threads on everything that portrays Pak economy in a bad light that it makes u wonder where do they find the time in their actual lives. This invites a response like Pakistani members constantly opening rape threads to show India in a bad light.

So this whole blame game of "we r mistreated" by any nationality here especially the Indians doesn't have a leg to stand on. Don't play the victim card when Indian trolls are equally responsible for the state of things.

As for trying to bring the quality of the forum back up and addressing the issue of idiotic members here. I've proposed a way to award "prestige points" to members(by other members) based on their posts. Just like how there can be certain sections limited to only senior members...this would allow to put a minimum limit of prestige points on a thread. A member must have that minimum number of the prestige points in order to participate and contribute. The reason this might work better than "senior, elite, etc" member status is bcuz it wouldn't be based on the number of posts...rather quality of posts. I've seen members here with just a few hundred posts and trolls having elite status. With prestige points...ppl(other members) can award it based on the content of the post(of a serious member who adds valuable contributions). Overtime serious members will accumulate enough...while trolls would struggle. This would allow to essentially quarantine trolls to low prestige threads...while high prestige threads would have civilized/serious debate. Even if somehow trolls give each other prestige or make multiple accounts...not only would it take great effort on their part...mods can easily step in and just ban that account and all the efforts of that troll would be in vain.

Refer to Horus post, according to him forum is much better moderated than before. Leading opinion in the thread among all Pakistani Posters barring you seems to be the same.

Now do you recognize the problem This is democracy in work, your point about prestige system is not needed as per majority opinion.

We still abide by our forum values, the only difference is that we have extensively ramped up moderation because of reasons a veteran member would understand. We are not going to create a dystopian platform, it will remain what it always has been. We still promote free speech, public debates, and knowledge sharing. We still protect the identities of our members, Pakistanis or international members.

Speaking as a member and not as an admin. I believe we have created a cleaner and safer environment for women on the forum. We welcome all minority groups and continue to criticize the authorities where its due.

Also, since when are forums democratic? Either they are runs as per whims of management like BR, IDF, PDF or are elitist like quality technical forums in various domains including defense.

Democratic forums are a recipe for disaster prime example is twitter where no of followers are basically equivalent to your prestige points. Populism rules in these places