CIAs estimates on Pakistan's nuclear program were 10 yrs behind actual stst

[MastanKhan]

Hi Asim,

What MK means is that it is not necessary for the entire blueprints to be given to be called 'help'. Smart people can figure out what to do & how to make it work if a little is given to them. The Europeans gave Pakistan just enough and the Pakistani establishment ensured that the bomb is made.

You can defeat Elmo knowing little boxing since she does not know boxing. If Elmo was a champion then you stand no chance. Is it established that Pak nuke program is the most sophisticated? No. It is good enough to enable what you label as deterrence. That is all that was given. It is upto the respective country to do whatever with what is given. How much they can do depends on a lot of factors.

Why do you think that China and India are struggling with aircraft turbines? Because nobody gave us anything of worth and we are not capable enough of doing so independently. China has invested so much in jet engines and yet their tech is still not of production standards.

The Americans, Russians got help from German scientists after WW2. Initial impetus is sometimes very important for rapid development.

Thank you,

It always boils down to the fighter aircraft engine analogy----why is russia still 10-20 years behind the u s and china 20-30 years behind the u s---. What is the steps that they were watching of the boxer---were a deception---like in case of compressor blades in he chinese engines---just can't figure out the right composition.

Or---no disrespect---case in point the tank diesel engine that india was trying to manufacture with all the german blue prints---the end result---not even half the horse power---. Why---there is more to it than just a mere copy.

Pakistan got all the help that it could during its nuclear program---you young pakistanis need to look at the end result---you have the end product---there must be a reason---the biggest reason---there were others who helped you---no man is island by himself---.

Be grateful---be thankful---for big favours and for small favours---be grateful even if they reject you---for it makes you stronger---for it strengthens your resolve. Look at the brighter side and take it with a smile and give it back with a smile as well---make people like you and befriend them---because friends do things for friends---that is what happened in the 60's and 70's---our phd's physics students doing their phd's in europe and the u s had developed great friendships during their period of education and work related training.

All the pakistani scientists getting their phd's in the u s were working at actual nuc reactors---my uncle did in georgia. First hand experience---the americans if they liked you gave you all the knowledge---the americans liked the paks at that time---every where in the world pak scientists were very much liked---it was after the 1965 war--pak had their tales up in the air----.

All of you kids are assuming what did not happen----but what I am talking about is of my personal experience---do you people want me to lie to you to satisfy your egos---what I saw and what I heard---I am putting it in words---.

But when I was younger----just like you---as young as you guys---and you too ASIM---just like you people are being an as-s hole to me---in a similiar manner I was a bigger as-s hole to my uncle at that time---many a times I humiliated that man---because my young pakistani ego could not be restrained---just like your---but yours does not come close.

Dream on children---dream on.

 

[Darth Vader]

Thank you,

It always boils down to the fighter aircraft engine analogy----why is russia still 10-20 years behind the u s and china 20-30 years behind the u s---. What is the steps that they were watching of the boxer---were a deception---like in case of compressor blades in he chinese engines---just can't figure out the right composition.

Or---no disrespect---case in point the tank diesel engine that india was trying to manufacture with all the german blue prints---the end result---not even half the horse power---. Why---there is more to it than just a mere copy.

Pakistan got all the help that it could during its nuclear program---you young pakistanis need to look at the end result---you have the end product---there must be a reason---the biggest reason---there were others who helped you---no man is island by himself---.

Be grateful---be thankful---for big favours and for small favours---be grateful even if they reject you---for it makes you stronger---for it strengthens your resolve. Look at the brighter side and take it with a smile and give it back with a smile as well---make people like you and befriend them---because friends do things for friends---that is what happened in the 60's and 70's---our phd's physics students doing their phd's in europe and the u s had developed great friendships during their period of education and work related training.

All the pakistani scientists getting their phd's in the u s were working at actual nuc reactors---my uncle did in georgia. First hand experience---the americans if they liked you gave you all the knowledge---the americans liked the paks at that time---every where in the world pak scientists were very much liked---it was after the 1965 war--pak had their tales up in the air----.

All of you kids are assuming what did not happen----but what I am talking about is of my personal experience---do you people want me to lie to you to satisfy your egos---what I saw and what I heard---I am putting it in words---.

But when I was younger----just like you---as young as you guys---and you too ASIM---just like you people are being an as-s hole to me---in a similiar manner I was a bigger as-s hole to my uncle at that time---many a times I humiliated that man---because my young pakistani ego could not be restrained---just like your---but yours does not come close.

Dream on children---dream on.

my dear friend Dnt be A as-s hole so no 1 will be as-s hole to u =))) cz like i said u r trying to be a wise guy or tryng to attack like a big shot who dont knw any thing but he saying no no just em right every thing else is wrong wrong lol =))) Now coming to the topic IF germans helped Us in making bomb then who helpêd german how germans knew that u told them or aliens=))) if our nuclear progm was the so called copy then why or tech is always better ? my dear my whole family is in army =))) and lol by the way em 2 but just not in pak so i knw lot better then u =))) soo grow up =)) like i said in the last post stop being so negtv aint good for ur B.P =))) old people cant handle B.p =)))

 

[Safriz]

All those saying that USA allowed Pakistan develop their Nuclear program by turning a blind eye and teaching Pakistani students Nuclear physics in US universities need to learn a bit more on recent history..
All that was done during Cold war era and Pakistan was a close anti USSR ally for USA..
Try studying Nuclear physics now at a USA university...You will get a kick in the back side.

 

[thinkingcap81]

Thank you,

It always boils down to the fighter aircraft engine analogy----why is russia still 10-20 years behind the u s and china 20-30 years behind the u s---. What is the steps that they were watching of the boxer---were a deception---like in case of compressor blades in he chinese engines---just can't figure out the right composition.

Or---no disrespect---case in point the tank diesel engine that india was trying to manufacture with all the german blue prints---the end result---not even half the horse power---. Why---there is more to it than just a mere copy.

Pakistan got all the help that it could during its nuclear program---you young pakistanis need to look at the end result---you have the end product---there must be a reason---the biggest reason---there were others who helped you---no man is island by himself---.

Be grateful---be thankful---for big favours and for small favours---be grateful even if they reject you---for it makes you stronger---for it strengthens your resolve. Look at the brighter side and take it with a smile and give it back with a smile as well---make people like you and befriend them---because friends do things for friends---that is what happened in the 60's and 70's---our phd's physics students doing their phd's in europe and the u s had developed great friendships during their period of education and work related training.

All the pakistani scientists getting their phd's in the u s were working at actual nuc reactors---my uncle did in georgia. First hand experience---the americans if they liked you gave you all the knowledge---the americans liked the paks at that time---every where in the world pak scientists were very much liked---it was after the 1965 war--pak had their tales up in the air----.

All of you kids are assuming what did not happen----but what I am talking about is of my personal experience---do you people want me to lie to you to satisfy your egos---what I saw and what I heard---I am putting it in words---.

But when I was younger----just like you---as young as you guys---and you too ASIM---just like you people are being an as-s hole to me---in a similiar manner I was a bigger as-s hole to my uncle at that time---many a times I humiliated that man---because my young pakistani ego could not be restrained---just like your---but yours does not come close.

Dream on children---dream on.

Sir,

A few off topic points... I am probably half your age, of an enemy country, so hope you don't take it negatively.

I think that you need to reduce the tenor of your posts. What you say about life and what to learn from it makes a lot of sense --- which is why i make it a point to read your posts whenever i chance upon one.

To almost everyone here you are an anonymous forummer. It possible for someone bold enough to have a good idea how to face life and learn from it. Such a person may walk the talk to simply talk. You could argue that 'read the esssence of my post' --- but people generally like to listen to those they know to have done what they preach. You, sir, to almost everyone over here could be anyone from a talker to a person who has fought his fears, prejudices and triumphed.

There are times when you have been corrected --- and during some of those episodes you have had your normal, what folks call condescending, style of speaking. When the mistakes had been caught, your style of writing coupled with these incidents make for a pungent cocktail especially to those who want to see it that way.

I am sure that a small change would do wonders. Most people have fully functional eyes that cannot see, ears that cannot hear... What you write applies to my country too and personally i'd like to read what you write. I still remember what you said once: 'Everyone, every country is working at full potential. What you see is what exists --- in order to improve you need to increase your potential. Don't delude yourself into thinking that you are capable of doing well if you do not have the guts to change.' I must have read it 3 - 4 times.

It would be a shame if you stopped posting for some avoidable irreconcilable differences.

 

[Pak47]

Pak does have ICBM's.

"Pakistan possesses various ICBMs which have a range of 9000+ kilometres", said the official, "But they will be revealed and tested when there is a need for it. At the moment, Pakistan is silently observing the Eastern Theatre of Operations spearheaded by the US and its increasing presence in Europe, the Pacific Ocean and South Asia. Add to that Indian frolicking and the coming US-Israel drills in the Middle East... and when the time comes, those who should know, will know, Pakistan also has targets beyond India... way beyond India".

Exclusive: Pakistani security official discusses the Shaheen-1A test ~ Terminal X

 

[MastanKhan]

my dear friend Dnt be A as-s hole so no 1 will be as-s hole to u =))) cz like i said u r trying to be a wise guy or tryng to attack like a big shot who dont knw any thing but he saying no no just em right every thing else is wrong wrong lol =))) Now coming to the topic IF germans helped Us in making bomb then who helpêd german how germans knew that u told them or aliens=))) if our nuclear progm was the so called copy then why or tech is always better ? my dear my whole family is in army =))) and lol by the way em 2 but just not in pak so i knw lot better then u =))) soo grow up =)) like i said in the last post stop being so negtv aint good for ur B.P =))) old people cant handle B.p =)))

Sir,

First of all, I am not yours or any ones friend---you mixing me with someone else---I am not a 'wise guy'----.

Write something comprehensible----there is no head or tale to your post----lastly---what I stated---you have no clue in your post that you understood anything at all----after the first sentence that you read----seemingly the blood rushed to your head---you started seeing red and did not see anything else in the post except for fire belching out of your eyes----I am not saying what you responded to---at least most of it.

You have taken this discussion to a different galaxy.

'Grow up' kid I have already done that---. Why don't you share your knowledge with us---open yourself up and allow us to tear you apart over here---then we will see how you pick yourself up and put yourself together---.

Talk is cheap my man----there have been many a pakistani that have had some very serious bouts with me---some adminstrators---very very knowledgeable and well versed---I would never say to you or to anyone that I know more than you do---I will just share with you what I have learnt and what my judgemental call would be---. So---far what most of my favourite writers have said and about the pakistani situation---they and I have been proven right so far----.

See---why don't you start an impartial discussion----put something on the paper---don't ride my back---otherwise I will have to tell you the anecdote about the 'flea that lived in the elephants ear'.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,

A few off topic points... I am probably half your age, of an enemy country, so hope you don't take it negatively.

I think that you need to reduce the tenor of your posts. What you say about life and what to learn from it makes a lot of sense --- which is why i make it a point to read your posts whenever i chance upon one.

To almost everyone here you are an anonymous forummer. It possible for someone bold enough to have a good idea how to face life and learn from it. Such a person may walk the talk to simply talk. You could argue that 'read the esssence of my post' --- but people generally like to listen to those they know to have done what they preach. You, sir, to almost everyone over here could be anyone from a talker to a person who has fought his fears, prejudices and triumphed.

There are times when you have been corrected --- and during some of those episodes you have had your normal, what folks call condescending, style of speaking. When the mistakes had been caught, your style of writing coupled with these incidents make for a pungent cocktail especially to those who want to see it that way.

I am sure that a small change would do wonders. Most people have fully functional eyes that cannot see, ears that cannot hear... What you write applies to my country too and personally i'd like to read what you write. I still remember what you said once: 'Everyone, every country is working at full potential. What you see is what exists --- in order to improve you need to increase your potential. Don't delude yourself into thinking that you are capable of doing well if you do not have the guts to change.' I must have read it 3 - 4 times.

It would be a shame if you stopped posting for some avoidable irreconcilable differences.

Hi,

Did i write those lines----I too have wondered at what I have written---when I read some of my older posts----you made me laugh----.

Failures I have many---and no you are not the enemy country---even though I have said it quite a few times---but just for the sake of it and maybe sometimes there is substance to it as well----.

I have not triumphed my fears and failures----but I have learnt to admit that they exist---and everyday I have to struggle hard to fight them to get me through the day.

While writing this---I am also watching the TV---there is a program on---CSI NEW YORK----the investigator says to 3 other colleagues ( viewing a crime scene )----don't tell me what it is----tell me what each of you see.

Majority of my pakistani brethren have no idea what that means----a few of them do know----but have not gone beyond that popoint where they start seeing, because they don't need to----some of them do have that talent----and they are the outcasts----.

That tells you about the condition of the nation---regardless of where you are ---that is the ultimate LITMUS TEST---.

As for what I am----love me or hate me---I am who I am----I cannot change my stripes now----.

These young ones don't understand-----but did they ever!

 

[krash]

Sir. Mastan I once read a really long report on the Pakistani nuclear program. There were accounts of many American and Indian personnel of notice who said that the exact status of the Pakistani program had been pretty cloudy. Where some of their reports had stated that Pakistan might have had a working nuclear weapon since the mid 80s others stated that we were still a few good years short of it. There were also talks in it about how the reports could have been botched to at least live through the Afghan-Soviet war period. It also stated accounts, from Indian military and political personalities, of how the uncertainty around the Pakistani program affected their decisions during tense times in the 90s. There was also the mention of pentagon reports claiming that Pakistan had somehow upgraded it's F-16s to carry nuclear bombs. I think I also read something about Pakistan having already assembled and tested one of it's nuclear devices in China in the early 90s. It was an old report and there was a lot in it but I have no idea how credible it all was. Im desperately trying to find that article but since I read it a long time ago I don't even know where to start.


There was an old man in my family who was told to be one of our nuclear scientists. I once remember him saying that the Pakistanis were constantly monitoring the US satellites, at the time of the Chagi tests, and that they would cease all operations and go into hiding when ever they were to pass over them. Apparently they also slept on 'charpai'-s out in the open when they were preparing for the tests there. Was wondering how true this is....anyone?

 

[Slayer786]

Just want to say this that Pakistan has nuclear missiles as one of the assets which will certainly give a pause to our enemies, but our greatest assets are us the people of Pakistan and when they attack us, I know one thing that we all will unite together and back up our armed forces to give a befittin reply to the nincompoops.

 

[Safriz]

There was an old man in my family who was told to be one of our nuclear scientists. I once remember him saying that the Pakistanis were constantly monitoring the US satellites, at the time of the Chagi tests, and that they would cease all operations and go into hiding when ever they were to pass over them. Apparently they also slept on 'charpai'-s out in the open when they were preparing for the tests there. Was wondering how true this is....anyone?

This part i can beleive as satellite monitoring can be done by a cheap set of Binoculars and there is abundat data available online to accurately predict each and every satellite's pass above head...

 

[krash]

Just want to say this that Pakistan has nuclear missiles as one of the assets which will certainly give a pause to our enemies, but our greatest assets are us the people of Pakistan and when they attack us, I know one thing that we all will unite together and back up our armed forces to give a befittin reply to the nincompoops.

If only we'd unite before that, then there might not be any attacks.....We are also Pakistan's greatest liability.

 

[thinkingcap81]

Hi,

Did i write those lines----I too have wondered at what I have written---when I read some of my older posts----you made me laugh----.

Failures I have many---and no you are not the enemy country---even though I have said it quite a few times---but just for the sake of it and maybe sometimes there is substance to it as well----.

I have not triumphed my fears and failures----but I have learnt to admit that they exist---and everyday I have to struggle hard to fight them to get me through the day.

While writing this---I am also watching the TV---there is a program on---CSI NEW YORK----the investigator says to 3 other colleagues ( viewing a crime scene )----don't tell me what it is----tell me what each of you see.

Majority of my pakistani brethren have no idea what that means----a few of them do know----but have not gone beyond that popoint where they start seeing, because they don't need to----some of them do have that talent----and they are the outcasts----.

That tells you about the condition of the nation---regardless of where you are ---that is the ultimate LITMUS TEST---.

As for what I am----love me or hate me---I am who I am----I cannot change my stripes now----.

These young ones don't understand-----but did they ever!

I understand every word of what you said and what you mean when you write. I might not have understood it 5 years back but now, thank god, i have grown up enough to think similar things. I would not trade it for anything.

I've been through stages when i had no goals and was afraid too --- it dragged me down. But somehow things changed for the better and i'm now in one of India's best places for higher education. Since two years i've been fighting even more --- and things have started entering my head. I understand better why people, nations triumph; the narrow yet glaring borders between success and failure... understand some of the rottenness that exists.

Everyone needs to have at least that much courage to face the mirror and ask qustions and answer truthfully, honestly. 99.99% of people cannot do that. Thank heavens i've started my journey.

 

[lkozhi]

usa had photographed the chinese blueprint.
Before i get infraction for telling truth here is the link.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/12/AR2009111211060.html

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir. Mastan I once read a really long report on the Pakistani nuclear program. There were accounts of many American and Indian personnel of notice who said that the exact status of the Pakistani program had been pretty cloudy. Where some of their reports had stated that Pakistan might have had a working nuclear weapon since the mid 80s others stated that we were still a few good years short of it. There were also talks in it about how the reports could have been botched to at least live through the Afghan-Soviet war period. It also stated accounts, from Indian military and political personalities, of how the uncertainty around the Pakistani program affected their decisions during tense times in the 90s. There was also the mention of pentagon reports claiming that Pakistan had somehow upgraded it's F-16s to carry nuclear bombs. I think I also read something about Pakistan having already assembled and tested one of it's nuclear devices in China in the early 90s. It was an old report and there was a lot in it but I have no idea how credible it all was. Im desperately trying to find that article but since I read it a long time ago I don't even know where to start.

There was an old man in my family who was told to be one of our nuclear scientists. I once remember him saying that the Pakistanis were constantly monitoring the US satellites, at the time of the Chagi tests, and that they would cease all operations and go into hiding when ever they were to pass over them. Apparently they also slept on 'charpai'-s out in the open when they were preparing for the tests there. Was wondering how true this is....anyone?

Hi,

It is believed that pak had done cold test in 83-84. It could have been done earlier as well. There maybe a reason that Zia dragged the u s in afghan war----and the reason maybe---pak and u s on the same side---the u s will look the other way on paks nuc program---the other reasons are obvious---getting weapons and aid.

The problem with indian anaylysts is that of a personal kind---they always underestimated pakistan's technical prowess, where it came to weapons systems. As for the americans---they just looked the other way----just like the french---when they let the israeli take their boats from the french port---or he swiss---who let the israeli load two tons of blue prints on a van---the blue prints of the mirage---or the americans who didn't do anything when a shipment of nuc material was stolen and sort of ended in israel.

 

[MastanKhan]

I understand every word of what you said and what you mean when you write. I might not have understood it 5 years back but now, thank god, i have grown up enough to think similar things. I would not trade it for anything.

I've been through stages when i had no goals and was afraid too --- it dragged me down. But somehow things changed for the better and i'm now in one of India's best places for higher education. Since two years i've been fighting even more --- and things have started entering my head. I understand better why people, nations triumph; the narrow yet glaring borders between success and failure... understand some of the rottenness that exists.

Everyone needs to have at least that much courage to face the mirror and ask qustions and answer truthfully, honestly. 99.99% of people cannot do that. Thank heavens i've started my journey.

Hi,

Isn't it amazing that the mirror never lies---you look at it and look at your eyes and it will let you look through your soul----but only if you want it to---and everything will be open to your eyes as to what is your your heart and what is in your mind and what is in your soul---.

Or you can simply block out your inner transition and just look at the face reflecting back at you---and at times it might make you wonder---who this guy is----is that really really you.

You cannot change what you look like on the outside----but if you have the courage to fight the battle you may change what is inside of you. It will be the most difficult battle of your life.