CIAs estimates on Pakistan's nuclear program were 10 yrs behind actual stst

[Awesome]

What a bunch of bull-crap----. Our nuclear program is with the help of foreign countries---. Americans knew what we were doing---they just looked the other way---the british knew---the germans knew---the french knew---the dutch knew---the only fools in this paradigm who did not know that all these others knew---are the pakistanis----.

Help is a wrong word especially since it indicates we got devices from China. We got our tech from the entire world maybe as alleged by several American writers, but mostly we took it by all means necessary. Sometimes we stole it, sometimes we smuggled it and a lot of it was developed on our own once we learned how to connect some key dots.

However its really never been convincingly argued that we were given help.

On a different note for AQK I have to remind him of the saying "Loose lips, sink ships". Its better to shut up about these things.

 

[OrionHunter]

Dr Khan said they built a successful nuclear warhead by 1984, at a maximum estimated cost of 250 million dollars, funded internally through off-the-book allocations from developmental budgets.

He's so proud of it! That's the tragedy! Who's bothered about development, eradication of poverty, health and education? Oh yes, ZA Bhutto did mention that Pakistanis will eat grass but make the bomb! It's really coming down to that!

War, bombs, nukes, missiles, death, destruction etc, are all fashionable words nowadays. It's the in-thing. Who's bothered about development, health and education? That's for the birds.

 

[MastanKhan]

Is it not treason unclassifying, classified information?



After US nuclear wepons tech. to Indians, the threats of nuclear attack on Pakistan is manifold more.

Considering, Indias have principally decided to sacrifice their part of Punjab. It is not hard to guess the target area and preperation timeline of attack.

Still Pakistan is under threat of proactive strikes by US or Indians.

Hi,

Actually---after the meltdown of the japanese reactors---all the bets are off----. India was strutting around as if nuc war didn't mean much---but after the jap earthquake---world is lookingat this disaster differently.

It started again about two to three weeks ago---when some tuna fish were caught somewhere I believe off the coast of california---they were of unsusual size and showed radiation exposure----the state of washington and oregon are becoming the dumping of earthquake washout---and possibly contaminated radiation stuff---and this radiation and fallout is nowhere close to what a nuclear strikes from pakistan and india will result in.

The world is a very small place now.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Hi,



There were and there are pak centric agents in the agency who knew what pak was doing---but looked the other way.

My uncle was one of the pioneers of the pak nuc program----he went abroad with suitcases full of dollars and bought equipment---those selling him knew what pak was doing---not all of hem sold it for money---most of them sold it for special reason---they wanted a muslim nuclear power to face the israelis one day----.

Wrong, Our nuclear program was never against Israelis. It was only india centric after their first test of Smiling Budha in 1974. I never expected such a pathetic post from you sideling the facts and twisting the story of Israelis with Muslim Ummah. Nucear program is for peaceful purpose and for minimum detterence policy against India.
Recent times, 70% information of CIA went wrong resulted the invasion on Iraq and other places.

 

[MastanKhan]

Wrong, Our nuclear program was never against Israelis. It was only india centric after their first test of Smiling Budha in 1974. I never expected such a pathetic post from you sideling the facts and twisting the story of Israelis with Muslim Ummah. Nucear program is for peaceful purpose and for minimum detterence policy against India.
Recent times, 70% information of CIA went wrong resulted the invasion on Iraq and other places.

Another one jumps in without looking----yes our program was against india and is---but it did not stop those europeans who hated israel and the jews to help us----. As they were already helping egypt, iraq and syria---we got the support by default---and also a lots of our scientists being educated in europe and the u s had cultivated friendships or associations during their stay abroad---.


I say to you guys----don't think with your feet---use your brains---open you minds---you will learn something.

How many time did the agency give diluted information to pres Regan---when the bill for forcing sanctions on pakistan came up---numerous.

 

[Awesome]

Help is a wrong word especially since it indicates we got devices from China. We got our tech from the entire world maybe as alleged by several American writers, but mostly we took it by all means necessary. Sometimes we stole it, sometimes we smuggled it and a lot of it was developed on our own once we learned how to connect some key dots.

However its really never been convincingly argued that we were given help.

Asim,

With due respect---please---if you don't know it---please don't indulge---. Just because you want to talk does not mean you know anything. For a time---I grew up in the house of the principal of pakistan nuclear reactor school---don't BS me.

You always try to wing it----we got it by creating good relationships with the suppliers and played on the support of those who hated the jews---.

Asim---you have no clue young man----so please let it ride---. The timeline of my experience of my younger years---you were not even born at that time---what is your exposure---I am talking about my life's first and second hand experiences----which either I faced directly or heard during family sittings---because the family member was in nuclear busines---the one I was living with for awhile and you are just blabbering because you want to---.

I wrote here one time earlier---I had visited the reactor at nylore in 1970 or 71 with my uncle and my father---. No average joe could get close to it at that time---maybe later it was opened for student viewing many a years later.

Asim---listen and learn---listen and learn---.

I merely objected to the usage of the incorrect term - 'help'. Otherwise I wrote we took the technology as well, it wasn't like nation-states were helping us out as part of their foreign policy.

I certainly am not 'winging it' nor are these arguments my own, many many knowledgeable writers have traced down the activities of AQ Khan network and none of them suggest the passing of devices as a ready made product.

I am basing my opinions on the scores of articles that trace his activities from Europe, Americas, Africa and East Asia (not China). You may have your anecdotal stories about family dinners, but essentially you're not describing activities that I would count as getting any help either. For example the German dude who you guys hosted at your house, was he sanctioned by the German State to pass nuclear secrets to Pakistan?

Whatever methods your uncle used to get that know-how out of him, I doubt they were sanctioned by the German government.

 

[Jango]

Sometimes, I just wish that sometimes AQ Khan should just keep quite in his cosy home in right next to Margalla hills.

 

[Awesome]

Iranian students were stopped from studying nuclear physics in the u s schools in the 80's---pakistani students were not---not even now.

So just by allowing studying nuclear physics US helped Pakistan to build the bomb?

What next? People who helped study English should be counted as helping to build the bomb since they used that English to study nuclear physics?

Do you have any factual evidence about State-sanctioned help given to Pakistan to build nuclear bombs?

I mean can you once again phrase your statement, what exactly is the premise of your statement? In one sentence. I promise I tried to read/listen/feel but I just couldn't get it. Stupid, illiterate me. But once again please. What is it that you're trying to say on this matter?

This is the same as I don't know Boxing, MastanKhan knows Boxing

I pay MastanKhan's boxing student to secretly learn 2 moves, and then secretly observe MastanKhan himself and learn 5 more moves and come out as a full fledged Boxer.

I have a fight with say... Elmo and I win using what I learned.

What would you say? "You suck, you learned everything from me, you get no credit for your victory."

You never 'helped' me. I took your skills without your help. That credit goes to me.

 

[Ark-Angel]

He's so proud of it! That's the tragedy! Who's bothered about development, eradication of poverty, health and education? Oh yes, ZA Bhutto did mention that Pakistanis will eat grass but make the bomb! It's really coming down to that!

War, bombs, nukes, missiles, death, destruction etc, are all fashionable words nowadays. It's the in-thing. Who's bothered about development, health and education? That's for the birds.

Take care of your own country's development.

 

[Hyperion]

Totally agreed that, most of the critical elements required, we didn't even have to pay a penny for (Note for the ones in business: Reflective coatings - We should thank the ******* )

Mastan, maybe I know you? Were you @ Chacklala in the late 80's or early 90's?

Hi,

What a bunch of bull-crap----. Our nuclear program is with the help of foreign countries---. Americans knew what we were doing---they just looked the other way---the british knew---the germans knew---the french knew---the dutch knew---the only fools in this paradigm who did not know that all these others knew---are the pakistanis----.

What an illusion self righteous belief and arrogance----. All the pakistani scientists were educated in europe and the u s---. Didn't the americans not know what pak would do---yes they did---.

There were and there are pak centric agents in the agency who knew what pak was doing---but looked the other way.

My uncle was one of the pioneers of the pak nuc program----he went abroad with suitcases full of dollars and bought equipment---those selling him knew what pak was doing---not all of hem sold it for money---most of them sold it for special reason---they wanted a muslim nuclear power to face the israelis one day----.

In 1974---I a young 17 years travelling in a/c class in tez gam going to pindi---a 50 plus year pakistani male---very well spoken---very well versed asked me---travelling in the same compartment asks me---what are you studying---I said biology major---he says---study physics that is where the future is---germans are helping the muslims a lot---the future is going to be in rockets and rocket technology----then he talked about his brother who used to be a minister some 15 years prior to that.

So---many a years later I learnt about my uncle making many a trips to germany to buy equipment---I read about the german scientists helping the egyptians, syrians, iraqis---. There was all kind of help from all kinds of places---.

I had a british nuclear scientist and his wife visit our house in quetta on his way back from pinstech in pindi---that was in 70-71 I don't remember clearly---my uncle worked with him. He drove in land rover from pakistan to england. All these relationships that so many of the pakistani scientists who had studied and worked abroad had cultivated bore fruit when pak was developing its program----.

You pakistanis have this strange ideas in your head that money buys you everything----that is a pi-ss poor and pathetic way of thinking. So much of that procurement was made due to friendship----even Qadeer Khan had associates that were his friends---now this lying pos is being deceitful---and you are following his lead as if you people have no brains----excuse me---what do I expect from you people---nothing more.

Not one of you speaks up---is there a limit to national stupidity and ignorance----do you really beleive in all the bull-sh-it that is being fed to you----you really have no common sense---.

It gets me really upset----but then I recall my younger years---I was as big a fool as any of you young pakistanis are---but the difference between me and you---is that I learnt---you people don't want to listen and learn anything-----.

You know what---believing in what you believe is okay---but to the extent when you hear something different-----that is where you need to listen with an open mind---but so many of you have closed your ears and closed your minds to anything that hurts your ego. What kind of way is that to live life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AQ Khan doesn't know all, he never did. He was privileged to compartmentalized information!

Sometimes, I just wish that sometimes AQ Khan should just keep quite in his cosy home in right next to Margalla hills.

Orion, You were sourcing the same equipment and *minerals* the time we were, the only difference being you were not being watched, and we were. There was never a shortage of physicists in Pakistan, so whatever methods that were necessary for procurement, were employed.

Please don't start the bullshit about stealing and stuff.

He's so proud of it! That's the tragedy! Who's bothered about development, eradication of poverty, health and education? Oh yes, ZA Bhutto did mention that Pakistanis will eat grass but make the bomb! It's really coming down to that!

War, bombs, nukes, missiles, death, destruction etc, are all fashionable words nowadays. It's the in-thing. Who's bothered about development, health and education? That's for the birds.

 

[Malik Usman]

Hearing from the man who stole nuclear secrets for money is not trustfull...
Without the help of a foreign country? Then y denmark have given him some 20 odd years in jail in absentia?
Though its stolen, their spies did a good job...

If getting knowledge and working in other countries is theft............then all Indians who are studying and working in America, UK and other countries they are all theives................And for your information...which most indians do lacking of information by just watching India TV.........Dr. Qadir won the case in International court when this balme was putted on him that he stole nuclear secrets from other country............and second thing if he reall could have exported the secrets of Pakistani Nukes to Iran and Lybia...........why didn't they make the Nukes yet........you have the answer..???

 

[Secur]

He's so proud of it! That's the tragedy! Who's bothered about development, eradication of poverty, health and education? Oh yes, ZA Bhutto did mention that Pakistanis will eat grass but make the bomb! It's really coming down to that!

War, bombs, nukes, missiles, death, destruction etc, are all fashionable words nowadays. It's the in-thing. Who's bothered about development, health and education? That's for the birds.

Yes , he's proud of it because matched his country's military power with its arch enemy forever which wouldn't have always remained equal conventionally , ensured that Pakistan is given the best chance to exist till kingdom comes ! Why shouldn't he be proud ?

Mate , your country has done the same ! Do not weep crocodile tears for humanity here ... Seriously it is no use ! Do you understand the threat level our country was facing at that time or do you think we all live in utopia ?

Sorry , but without the existence of our country , there wont be things for us you mentioned in the first place !

 

[MastanKhan]

So just by allowing studying nuclear physics US helped Pakistan to build the bomb?

What next? People who helped study English should be counted as helping to build the bomb since they used that English to study nuclear physics?

Do you have any factual evidence about State-sanctioned help given to Pakistan to build nuclear bombs?

I mean can you once again phrase your statement, what exactly is the premise of your statement? In one sentence. I promise I tried to read/listen/feel but I just couldn't get it. Stupid, illiterate me. But once again please. What is it that you're trying to say on this matter?

This is the same as I don't know Boxing, MastanKhan knows Boxing

I pay MastanKhan's boxing student to secretly learn 2 moves, and then secretly observe MastanKhan himself and learn 5 more moves and come out as a full fledged Boxer.

I have a fight with say... Elmo and I win using what I learned.

What would you say? "You suck, you learned everything from me, you get no credit for your victory."

You never 'helped' me. I took your skills without your help. That credit goes to me.

Asim,

Please---for god's sake---stop being ignorant----. Stop thinking cheap-----stop acting clever----'I took your skills'---is that what you thrive on.

You are totally clueless to what I am talking about----my goodness---you are someone who has a degree and an educated man---. You should be the one appreciative of the knowledge given to you and you want to think like a petty thief---' t stole your thoughts' 'I stole your moves' ' .

It doesn't work like that in real life----only in movies---'indian movies' I would say----. You have to know the reasoning behind those boxing moves---what and how it led to that move and what you are going to do to after you have made that move---there is a thought---engineering---a game plan---behind all those steps---.

You have too much hate built up in you----get yourself rid of your hate----and then look at the world. I don't know what the source of this hate is----I have not seen anything from you that shows that you have been a victim----so share with us----where does this hate come from that clouds your judgement and blurs your vision------.

So many of your posts are full of ignorance----I want to know what makes you tick the way you do----where does all this ignorance comes from.

 

[thinkingcap81]

So just by allowing studying nuclear physics US helped Pakistan to build the bomb?

What next? People who helped study English should be counted as helping to build the bomb since they used that English to study nuclear physics?

Do you have any factual evidence about State-sanctioned help given to Pakistan to build nuclear bombs?

I mean can you once again phrase your statement, what exactly is the premise of your statement? In one sentence. I promise I tried to read/listen/feel but I just couldn't get it. Stupid, illiterate me. But once again please. What is it that you're trying to say on this matter?

This is the same as I don't know Boxing, MastanKhan knows Boxing

I pay MastanKhan's boxing student to secretly learn 2 moves, and then secretly observe MastanKhan himself and learn 5 more moves and come out as a full fledged Boxer.

I have a fight with say... Elmo and I win using what I learned.

What would you say? "You suck, you learned everything from me, you get no credit for your victory."

You never 'helped' me. I took your skills without your help. That credit goes to me.

Hi Asim,

What MK means is that it is not necessary for the entire blueprints to be given to be called 'help'. Smart people can figure out what to do & how to make it work if a little is given to them. The Europeans gave Pakistan just enough and the Pakistani establishment ensured that the bomb is made.

You can defeat Elmo knowing little boxing since she does not know boxing. If Elmo was a champion then you stand no chance. Is it established that Pak nuke program is the most sophisticated? No. It is good enough to enable what you label as deterrence. That is all that was given. It is upto the respective country to do whatever with what is given. How much they can do depends on a lot of factors.

Why do you think that China and India are struggling with aircraft turbines? Because nobody gave us anything of worth and we are not capable enough of doing so independently. China has invested so much in jet engines and yet their tech is still not of production standards.

The Americans, Russians got help from German scientists after WW2. Initial impetus is sometimes very important for rapid development.

 

[Darth Vader]

Asim,

Please---for god's sake---stop being ignorant----. Stop thinking cheap-----stop acting clever----'I took your skills'---is that what you thrive on.

You are totally clueless to what I am talking about----my goodness---you are someone who has a degree and an educated man---. You should be the one appreciative of the knowledge given to you and you want to think like a petty thief---' t stole your thoughts' 'I stole your moves' ' .

It doesn't work like that in real life----only in movies---'indian movies' I would say----. You have to know the reasoning behind those boxing moves---what and how it led to that move and what you are going to do to after you have made that move---there is a thought---engineering---a game plan---behind all those steps---.

You have too much hate built up in you----get yourself rid of your hate----and then look at the world. I don't know what the source of this hate is----I have not seen anything from you that shows that you have been a victim----so share with us----where does this hate come from that clouds your judgement and blurs your vision------.

So many of your posts are full of ignorance----I want to know what makes you tick the way you do----where does all this ignorance comes from.

My dear MK i saw many of ur post and u r alwys tryng to be a so called wise guy lol =)) dont try wht u cant be anyways coming to the topic u said abt ur uncle MY dear my uncle is still working their and DR A.Q is the 1 who invited him back into Pakistan and no 1 helpd Pakistan US , and others knew after 1965s war pakistan was trying to make a atom bomb so obvs its wanst the car parts to get it so easily and lol many pakis were caught and threatened by ur UK AND USA cz they were tryng to help and yes Germany did helpd a little pakistan but it was only the muslims countries who helped mstly pakistan with money not with the scientist or crap =)) shah of sudia and Colonel Gaddafi these 2 guys helped so much pakistan with money and for u dont be 2 much ngtv blood presr is bad for health :p if some 1 say thing it dsnt mean that he is alwys wrong some times wht happens u dont knw wht he knows