China's new nuclear subs are very silent

[mike2000]

Not really. Our newest, and soon to escort our AC, SSBN can equip more advance SLBMs and can cruise faster than France latest Barracuda-class SSBN. Our latest SSBN 095 will rival the US's Virginia class and the thing is we are advancing rapidly and newer, improved model of SSBN will come out in 2020s.

Honestly, I don't understand this idea of Japan as some technologically superior country that can build anything. Are we forgetting they can't build a good 4th gen aircraft themselves and required the US's help, in F2 program, a copy of F-15? Are we forgetting that Japan, this highly technological country, cannot put a manned flight in space and need Russian help to transfer their astronauts to space? Are we forgetting that Japan doesn't have the fastest supercomputer in the world? Are we forgetting they have never been to the Moon in any shape and fashion? Japan is a country that is very good at supplying high-tech material in the commercial realm but in advance technology that require state-of-art cooperation, research, and development, they have never accomplish anything that make you go "WOW"? Are you watching too much Gundam and believe the useless Japanese humanoid robot represents the artificial intelligence level of the Japanese tech industry? Are we forgetting that these robots are so useless they can't fix the Fukishima nuclear reactor? Let be honest and sit back here for a second and ask ourselves why Japan had never done anything remarkable in human achievement.

No I don't believe Japan can rival the US if they are bigger. You simply do not understand how a big country manage population and vast empire. China is a big population, 4x bigger then the US. If we have smaller population, it would be much easier to modernize.

i never said Japan is superior militarily to China or Russia. Of Japan doesnt have SSBN that can rival what China or Russia have. Militarily Japan is still an occupied country , hence its military is heavily dependent on the U.S . so of course China is way ahead of japan militarily speaking.But i meant in commercial technology Japan is still a world beater. Its still very advance technologically,be it in nuclear tech(not withstanding the fukushima issue) its still has one of the leading companies in nuclear tech(it even owns wetinghouse which is building some of chinas new nuclear reactors), its car industry is world class, same with its electronics and machinery industry, fashion industry as well. etc.
What im trying to point out is that Japan is still a very advance country economically speaking, and when i first visited Japan, i was suprise to see that Japan is one of the most conservative country in the world, they are not very welcoming to foreigners/very closed society, no matter how many years you have lived there, you will never be considered as part of them)(even for a westerner like me, its even worst for other Asian people who they still regard as kind of inferior to them). This one thing i was surprised to see, since my image of democratic Japan was quite different, i expected it to be more so in communist authoritarian China than Japan. however i was surprised to see that China is even more open/accomodating than Japan to foreigners(though both country still lack well behind the west on this issue), same with other southeast Asian countries like Singapore, Hongkong, Malaysia, it was more open in these countries than Japan. i dont know the reason for this, but just seems to me that Japanese people are very nationalistic/conservative(which i dont think is a bad thing), as you will hardly find any western brand that totally dominates the market there, unlike in other Asian countries where its the norm to see western product dominating every life aspects.
So im just pointing out that you shouldnt underestimate Japan, they are still a little behind in developing cutting edge military weapons just because they are still an occupied country, and cant do anything without it being sanctioned by their patron U.S. An since the U.S wont like to see a very strong/indpendent Japan, there are things/projects it wont allow Japan to develop. Funny enough, In some ways U.S presence In Japan is beneficial to China. So yes we will have to wait for a long time when Japan is less/free from the U.S for it to able to develop offensive weapons. Though that will be a very long wait. since the U.S is in Asia to stay.

 

[mike2000]

Not really. Our newest, and soon to escort our AC, SSBN can equip more advance SLBMs and can cruise faster than France latest Barracuda-class SSBN. Our latest SSBN 095 will rival the US's Virginia class and the thing is we are advancing rapidly and newer, improved model of SSBN will come out in 2020s.

Honestly, I don't understand this idea of Japan as some technologically superior country that can build anything. Are we forgetting they can't build a good 4th gen aircraft themselves and required the US's help, in F2 program, a copy of F-15? Are we forgetting that Japan, this highly technological country, cannot put a manned flight in space and need Russian help to transfer their astronauts to space? Are we forgetting that Japan doesn't have the fastest supercomputer in the world? Are we forgetting they have never been to the Moon in any shape and fashion? Japan is a country that is very good at supplying high-tech material in the commercial realm but in advance technology that require state-of-art cooperation, research, and development, they have never accomplish anything that make you go "WOW"? Are you watching too much Gundam and believe the useless Japanese humanoid robot represents the artificial intelligence level of the Japanese tech industry? Are we forgetting that these robots are so useless they can't fix the Fukishima nuclear reactor? Let be honest and sit back here for a second and ask ourselves why Japan had never done anything remarkable in human achievement.

No I don't believe Japan can rival the US if they are bigger. You simply do not understand how a big country manage population and vast empire. China is a big population, 4x bigger then the US. If we have smaller population, it would be much easier to modernize.

As for your last point, yes its true it would have been more easier for China to mordenize if it had a smaller population. But then again, China wouldnt have been an upcoming world power/economic superpower if that was the case, since its lower population will have meant it would have been very difficult for it to surpass the U.S. This is one reaon Japan couldnt surpass the U.S. Its population is simply too small compared to the U.S(the U.,S is more than twice as populous than Japan) hence it will have to be more than twice as productive as America to be able to surpass it economically. Meanwhile China being 4 times as populous as the U.S just needs to be half as productive as the U.S or even Japan for it to have twice the size of the U.S economy. Its mainly for this reason im sure China will surpass the U.S in the coming decade(even India will in a longer term), because it still a poor country, hence it still has a large room for growth before it stabilizes/slow down like Japan did after its boom years/hig gdp per capital. Just to point out an example, if China has the same nominal GDP as the U.S now, its gdp per capital will still be way less than half that of Japan. just shows you the room for growth the country still has(same applies to India.)
So yes everything has its advantages and disadvantage. depends on how we all look at it.

 

[mike2000]

I disagree, the reason Japan would have been a leader in Asia is because the Japanese industrialized earlier. They went to Europe and absorb everything which led to their industrialization. In the end China would have caught up just as China is closing in fast on the US at the present. Japan would not have kept the lead forever even if it didn't join WW2.

Yes i agree partly with your point, But you must remember that, Japan being part of the wrong side of history during world war II damaged them quite alot internationally. Same with Germany. Had they not been on the wrong side, then believe me, they would have had way more influence/say in the world than they do now. After all Japan is bigger than France, Britain and even Germany(though i know its due to Germany being divided after the war) economically. But France and U.K still has wayyyyy more influence/say in the world than Japan. In fact Japan has almost zero world influence, even though it has a large economy. Its at best a semi-regional power(i wouldnt even say a regional power, since its not even independent, as its still the U.S 'unsinkable aircraft carrier in Asia'.). In fact i would argue that India and south Korea has more world influence/say than Japan. Its mainly due to history and the fact that it still cant make its own policies without U.S consent. so its very limited in acting even for its own interests(it puts U.S interests before its own). Anyway, they dont have a choice since they started the war in Asia. so can't blame Uncle sam for keeping them under its arm.

 

[terranMarine]

Yes i agree partly with your point, But you must remember that, Japan being part of the wrong side of history during world war II damaged them quite alot internationally. Same with Germany. Had they not been on the wrong side, then believe me, they would have had way more influence/say in the world than they do now. After all Japan is bigger than France, Britain and even Germany(though i know its due to Germany being divided after the war) economically. But France and U.K still has wayyyyy more influence/say in the world than Japan. In fact Japan has almost zero world influence, even though it has a large economy. Its at best a semi-regional power(i wouldnt even say a regional power, since its not even independent, as its still the U.S 'unsinkable aircraft carrier in Asia'.). In fact i would argue that India and south Korea has more world influence/say than Japan. Its mainly due to history and the fact that it still cant make its own policies without U.S consent. so its very limited in acting even for its own interests(it puts U.S interests before its own). Anyway, they dont have a choice since they started the war in Asia. so can't blame Uncle sam for keeping them under its arm.

If you agree you would not have said Japan would have been a natural leader had they not started the war in Asia in the first place. As i have said they started earlier so ofcourse they had the advantage. The real leader has always been China for thousands of years and not Japan. The Qing Dynasty messed it up period and the rest is history. Now China is back claiming its rightful place which is the big brother in this continent. Japan already moved aside and India has the potential to replace Japanese economic size in the future. Even if Japan didn't started the war in Asia, at best they would have become the 2nd most important country in Asia as China would have caught up eventually. The question remains how long the US can put a rope around Japan's neck.

 

[Brainsucker]

I guess if you think hacking tech blueprints and then incorporating it, is impressive ..... but I got to give credit to them for engaging in hacking on a such a massive scale.

Please show me the "Hard" evidence that can enforce your claim. You said that China has some hacked blueprint? Then show me if that blueprint is in China's hand. Just don't pointing finger without any evidence. That can tarnish your credibility in other people eyes. everyone can assume something. But as long as they don't have any hard evidence, it always stay as assumption

@mike2000 : Wow mike, you make such a marathon in here

 

[axisofevil]

Please show me the "Hard" evidence that can enforce your claim. You said that China has some hacked blueprint? Then show me if that blueprint is in China's hand. Just don't pointing finger without any evidence. That can tarnish your credibility in other people eyes. everyone can assume something. But as long as they don't have any hard evidence, it always stay as assumption

@mike2000 : Wow mike, you make such a marathon in here

I can't show you evidence. But are you saying China hasn't hacked and stolen blueprints and research?

 

[Brainsucker]

I can't show you evidence. But are you saying China hasn't hacked and stolen blueprints and research?

I'm not saying anything about China hasn't hacked and stole some blueprint. I just asked you if you can show us some hard evidence about the stolen blueprint. if you can't show me, then it is only an assumption. But because there is no evidence that show China stole some blueprint, common sense dictate us to acknowledge them as the developer of those technology. At least, until evidence show otherwise.

It just the same as the law. You will always be considered as innocent until evidence show otherwise.

 

[xunzi]

If you agree you would not have said Japan would have been a natural leader had they not started the war in Asia in the first place. As i have said they started earlier so ofcourse they had the advantage. The real leader has always been China for thousands of years and not Japan. The Qing Dynasty messed it up period and the rest is history. Now China is back claiming its rightful place which is the big brother in this continent. Japan already moved aside and India has the potential to replace Japanese economic size in the future. Even if Japan didn't started the war in Asia, at best they would have become the 2nd most important country in Asia as China would have caught up eventually. The question remains how long the US can put a rope around Japan's neck.

Honestly I don't get this notion that Japan is some amazing country that can do anything. The funny thing is people in the world actually believe in this deceiving image without actually check whether the compliment is warrant. Japan only wow people with their high-quality/low budget car because they can produce in quantity. But producing car is not hard to do. Everyone can produce car. In fact, best cars are European car. The rest, they are not leader in anything, especially in high-tech industry that require state-of-the-art industrial and technological capability such as aircraft, commercial large jetliner, space, supercomputer and microchip processor.

 

[axisofevil]

I'm not saying anything about China hasn't hacked and stole some blueprint. I just asked you if you can show us some hard evidence about the stolen blueprint. if you can't show me, then it is only an assumption. But because there is no evidence that show China stole some blueprint, common sense dictate us to acknowledge them as the developer of those technology. At least, until evidence show otherwise.

It just the same as the law. You will always be considered as innocent until evidence show otherwise.

Im asking you does china hack and steal?

As for hard evidence, I am not some gov't agency that can pull up and upload such evidence. Common sense also requires you to use your eyes to see exact copies in certain products, weapons and software! You can defend it all you want, but we all know what you are up to.



Here is one example I could eaisly find. If you are so interested, then do some research. It's not hard to find basic stuff.....

 

[xunzi]

i never said Japan is superior militarily to China or Russia. Of Japan doesnt have SSBN that can rival what China or Russia have. Militarily Japan is still an occupied country , hence its military is heavily dependent on the U.S . so of course China is way ahead of japan militarily speaking.But i meant in commercial technology Japan is still a world beater. Its still very advance technologically,be it in nuclear tech(not withstanding the fukushima issue) its still has one of the leading companies in nuclear tech(it even owns wetinghouse which is building some of chinas new nuclear reactors), its car industry is world class, same with its electronics and machinery industry, fashion industry as well. etc.
What im trying to point out is that Japan is still a very advance country economically speaking, and when i first visited Japan, i was suprise to see that Japan is one of the most conservative country in the world, they are not very welcoming to foreigners/very closed society, no matter how many years you have lived there, you will never be considered as part of them)(even for a westerner like me, its even worst for other Asian people who they still regard as kind of inferior to them). This one thing i was surprised to see, since my image of democratic Japan was quite different, i expected it to be more so in communist authoritarian China than Japan. however i was surprised to see that China is even more open/accomodating than Japan to foreigners(though both country still lack well behind the west on this issue), same with other southeast Asian countries like Singapore, Hongkong, Malaysia, it was more open in these countries than Japan. i dont know the reason for this, but just seems to me that Japanese people are very nationalistic/conservative(which i dont think is a bad thing), as you will hardly find any western brand that totally dominates the market there, unlike in other Asian countries where its the norm to see western product dominating every life aspects.
So im just pointing out that you shouldnt underestimate Japan, they are still a little behind in developing cutting edge military weapons just because they are still an occupied country, and cant do anything without it being sanctioned by their patron U.S. An since the U.S wont like to see a very strong/indpendent Japan, there are things/projects it wont allow Japan to develop. Funny enough, In some ways U.S presence In Japan is beneficial to China. So yes we will have to wait for a long time when Japan is less/free from the U.S for it to able to develop offensive weapons. Though that will be a very long wait. since the U.S is in Asia to stay.

This is where you are wrong again. The main reason the Japan relied on the US for military, political, and diplomatic support is because their true strength is heavily depending on the US's trust. Japan had NEVER, ever been a self-reliant country. Even at the height of Japan's power which is imperial Japan, their technology and design derived and imported from Nazi German's industrial capability. They gain their diplomatic power through the League of Nation as P5.

No, Japan owned Westinghouse (US energy corp) has nothing to do with Japanese nuclear technological capability. That's like saying India can build luxury car because they own Jaguar brand. Remember, GE builds Japan nuclear power plants (old generation). Japan did the management through transfer of technology. Westinghouse builds a portion of our nuclear power plant, the rest we build ourselves. We need foreigners to build, not because we can't build ourselves, but we need nuclear power plant in large number, fast and now. Time is important for us.

Japan's best car, Lexus, is no where near the best of Europe. They build medium quality and low budget car. The main attraction is price and reliable. Design and quality is no where as good as Euro. We even build car ourselves and are expanding currently. Building car is not difficult. Any medium country can do it. Look at South Korea. In electronics, they are being surpass by South Korea and China. In computer, China's Lenovo is top. In smartphone, it's South Korea's Samsung. We're second in Asia. Sony is so bad that they are about to get out of electronic business altogether. Sharp and Toshiba are on the verge of bankruptcy because they can't compete with South Korea Samsung/LG in TV segment and computer with China. Fashion. Are you freaking serious? What fashion has to do with innovative technology and capability? When you are rich and prosperous, your design will improve. It's fact. Europe fashion still ruled. In fact, South Korea fashion is better than Japan. Do you see anyone wearing like Japanese anywhere? I don't think so, my friend. Machinery industry... uh the world uses our machine, here.

Let sit back and ask ourselves why Japan, this highly amazing technological capable country, is not in contention and competing in real high-tech industry that require state-of-the-art management ability, manufacturing capability, and technology self-reliance in area of Space tech, aircraft, commercial airliner, supercomputer and chip processor.

 

[Brainsucker]

Im asking you does china hack and steal?

As for hard evidence, I am not some gov't agency that can pull up and upload such evidence. Common sense also requires you to use your eyes to see exact copies in certain products, weapons and software! You can defend it all you want, but we all know what you are up to.

Here is one example I could eaisly find. If you are so interested, then do some research. It's not hard to find basic stuff.....

Just show the hard evidence. i don't care about your assumption.

 

[terranMarine]

Honestly I don't get this notion that Japan is some amazing country that can do anything. The funny thing is people in the world actually believe in this deceiving image without actually check whether the compliment is warrant. Japan only wow people with their high-quality/low budget car because they can produce in quantity. But producing car is not hard to do. Everyone can produce car. In fact, best cars are European car. The rest, they are not leader in anything, especially in high-tech industry that require state-of-the-art industrial and technological capability such as aircraft, commercial large jetliner, space, supercomputer and microchip processor.

So far they Japanese haven't demonstrated these capabilities indeed. They were seen as an advanced country and compared Tokyo to Bladerunner when it first hit the screen. Though i have to agree Japanese do have some nice inventions like the magnet train and forerunner in robotics, improved stuffs they copied from the west and turned them into successful consumer electronics, make great computer games and home appliances especially those funny intelligent toilets, that's pretty much about it. But as you have said the best cars come from Germany and German brands of home appliances are also very good.
China on the other hand has demonstrated to the world we can achieve certain objectives despite sanctions. We have our successful space program, our own computer chips, can mass produce for any country, a rapidly advancing military industry etc.

 

[xunzi]

So far they Japanese haven't demonstrated these capabilities indeed. They were seen as an advanced country and compared Tokyo to Bladerunner when it first hit the screen. Though i have to agree Japanese do have some nice inventions like the magnet train and forerunner in robotics, improved stuffs they copied from the west and turned them into successful consumer electronics, make great computer games and home appliances especially those funny intelligent toilets, that's pretty much about it. But as you have said the best cars come from Germany and German brands of home appliances are also very good.
China on the other hand has demonstrated to the world we can achieve certain objectives despite sanctions. We have our successful space program, our own computer chips, can mass produce for any country, a rapidly advancing military industry etc.

AI robotics are useless. They are good for look. Not every good at basic necessity function. Manufacturing robot is where Japan can be proud of but we are heading in that direction to take the lead in 5 years. Home appliance and intelligent toilet are low-tech stuff. It is not something to be proud of. Gaming industry, they're good. We're not good because our government consider gaming is a waste of time so we banned it until recently it was open in free trade zone. Had our government didn't ban, our innovation in gaming will be unmatched. We are already a leader in social gaming. Beside Japanese gaming technology is still 2nd to the US. US uses the best gaming engine. Just compare picture quality of Modern Warfare vs Japan's Metal Gear Solid. There is a reason why USA dominate in real high-tech capability like chip, airplane, ship, supercomputer, space, GPS, and software. Areas where only a few select countries are in competition. Japan is not one of them.

 

[axisofevil]

Just show the hard evidence. i don't care about your assumption.

The only one assuming here is you. I don't care for your bs. Like I said before, you don't think China is hacking and stealing data? Answer the question, why do you shy away from it? Or is it obvious that you and I both know the same answer?


Here is one example. Like I said, its not hard even a little child can find such information. Try harder next time if you want the truth.


China Corporate Espionage Boom Knocks Wind Out of U.S. Companies - Bloomberg

 

[Brainsucker]

The only one assuming here is you. I don't care for your bs. Like I said before, you don't think China is hacking and stealing data? Answer the question, why do you shy away from it? Or is it obvious that you and I both know the same answer?

Here is one example. Like I said, its not hard even a little child can find such information. Try harder next time if you want the truth.

China Corporate Espionage Boom Knocks Wind Out of U.S. Companies - Bloomberg

Ok, it is Sinovel Wind Group Co. This is a private company. And they are caught red handed using a stolen software... or pirated software? Is Sinovel Wind Group Co. a government entity? What is the different between Sinovel and you and me? If you use pirated Windows or software, or even pirated game then that means your government hacked and steal the American Technology? Even Samsung and Apple has some legal war accusing each other "Stealing" the other's concept or technology. In Korea, Apple was lose the case. Is that mean The US Government stole Korea's technology? Vice versa in US, Samsung was lose their case against Apple, so Korea Government steal American Technology?

You and me, and even Sinovel have to answer and responsible for what we are doing alone. If you steal Windows by using the pirated version of it, or if you steal some game or software or using the pirated version of it, then it is you who must responsible for the crime. Not your government. It is also be true with Sinovel. They are not a government entity. So what they do are their own responsible alone.

Now, show me the evidence that the submarine technology that this thread mentioned is stolen!