Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Deltadart]

Super cheetah still looks like a very ferocious beast, and comparable to the contemporary fighters. It can still be a very affordable option for few more decades at least.

 

[araz]

True, at the same time such plants do exist in a number of countries - South Africa, Israel, Belgium, Switzerland, France and Australia all come to mind. There still may be tooling that can be bought from these places.

3D printing technology is a major leap here, many parts now can be manufactured this way. I knew a USAF officer whose work was to only build parts for out of production planes whose parts were not available. He would simply print most of them!

Then there are all kinds of processes like electrolysis that can add a layer of aluminum to a structural part to strengthen it. And various metallurgical processes.

The MRF has now got the facilities to manufacture parts for the M3/5s. However what we are talking about would require not rebuild but amnufacturing of newer platforms and this would be problematic. For exmple where would the maraging steel come from? Then Dassault would want to have their share in production due to copyrights. I dont think the will is there to upgrade the M3/5s as we feel they will need replacing in 5 years time. The true coup de grace might have been to buy the manufacturing line for M2Ks around the turn of the century and contract the french to put M88 instead of M53s. This could have done the job for us but I dont even know whether this was thought of and tried and what the response would hace been. Perhaps PAF always wanted to progress on to J10s being newer and more modern platforms. Perhps JFT might have been delayed and PAF did not have the resources to manufacture 2 planes in house.

A

In hindsight, it would've been a smart idea to ask Dassault for a local turnkey manufacturing line for the Mirages back in the 1970s/1980s. That way, PAC could've rolled-out its own Cheetah or Kfir.

It was tried and some other countries threw a spanner in the works. I gether it was an Iran Pak Egypt venture. I still think we should have gone solo in the early 90s but politicians were so hell bent on fighting each other and corrupting the whole environment that most armed forces were concerned for their next pay check than anything else.
A

 

[Deltadart]

The MRF has now got the facilities to manufacture parts for the M3/5s. However what we are talking about would require not rebuild but amnufacturing of newer platforms and this would be problematic. For exmple where would the maraging steel come from? Then Dassault would want to have their share in production due to copyrights. I dont think the will is there to upgrade the M3/5s as we feel they will need replacing in 5 years time. The true coup de grace might have been to buy the manufacturing line for M2Ks around the turn of the century and contract the french to put M88 instead of M53s. This could have done the job for us but I dont even know whether this was thought of and tried and what the response would hace been. Perhaps PAF always wanted to progress on to J10s being newer and more modern platforms. Perhps JFT might have been delayed and PAF did not have the resources to manufacture 2 planes in house.

A


It was tried and some other countries threw a spanner in the works. I gether it was an Iran Pak Egypt venture. I still think we should have gone solo in the early 90s but politicians were so hell bent on fighting each other and corrupting the whole environment that most armed forces were concerned for their next pay check than anything else.
A

very solid answers for the present predicament with the mirages. It seems like everytime there is a plan to proceed with local manufacture of planes (A7s, Saab Draken, M2k, M3,5 etc) some thing happens, either political or financial. Unfortunately, I don't expect any chage in this pattern in the foreseeable future.

 

[Armchair]

Remanufacturing mirages will not require any licencing fees for Dessault as it is "re" manufacturing aircraft that are already possessed by Pak. There is no question of royalties. SA went down this route and I think @denel can testify to this.

Steel (and more importantly aluminum, titanium, and various other metals will be needed. Acquiring these are the easy part. Getting the jigs for the major structural parts are the other issue, and again, these are available from a host of countries (South Africa and possibly other countries such as Belgium, France, Switzerland, Israel).

There is no major barrier to this, just the will to go through with it.

Let us keep the issue simple - not get sidelined with history and M2K and all kinds of other topics.

We have some Mirages. They are some of the simplest desgined fighters in the last 50 years. We are going to remanufacture them. 100 copies. That's it. Just get the project going.

 

[The Deterrent]

So, apparently, the PAF is keeping the Mirages for a while yet, and for now, it seems the Ra'ad is tied to the Mirage.

In that case, let's just shoot off ideas on how to get more out of those fighters. Yes, I was taking it a step further by saying we ought to keep them for as long as possible, but it wasn't a shot at the PAF. Rather, I thought it'd be worth studying because Pakistan can keep 100 launch platforms for strategic weapons (Ra'ad). If it's infeasible, cool, if it's doable, also cool. Is the PAF obliged to do anything about it? Nope, and that's cool.

A 100 platforms (aircrafts) is a bit too much IMO. But strategic weapons are exactly what will keep the Mirages in service at least till 2030. Its not just about Ra'ad, Mirages have a certain ground clearance and weight carrying capacity on the center-line pylon which enable them to deliver very heavy payloads.

3x Squadrons (~50 aircrafts), equipped with FLIR, GCAS and NVG (on the lines of No. 25 & 27) dedicated for strategic strikes are enough for PAF. As others have noted as well, this allows for JF-17s/F-16s to be available for conventional ops.

 

[Armchair]

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-xx-strike-fighter.614286/


Sir,share the link.

*cough cough* I happen to know that poster quite intimately...

 

[Quwa]

A 100 platforms (aircrafts) is a bit too much IMO. But strategic weapons are exactly what will keep the Mirages in service at least till 2030. Its not just about Ra'ad, Mirages have a certain ground clearance and weight carrying capacity on the center-line pylon which enable them to deliver very heavy payloads.

3x Squadrons (~50 aircrafts), equipped with FLIR, GCAS and NVG (on the lines of No. 25 & 27) dedicated for strategic strikes are enough for PAF. As others have noted as well, this allows for JF-17s/F-16s to be available for conventional ops.

We can preserve the Mirages even further if we add longer ranged conventional SOWs to the JF-17.

So a Ra'ad Lite' ALCM (or just the Turkish SOM) and longer ranged versions of the REK (maybe add booster rockets?) would make the JF-17's conventional attack capability very potent.

It'll also free the Mirages for a very specific set of missions.

 

[Deltadart]

We can preserve the Mirages even further if we add longer ranged conventional SOWs to the JF-17.

So a Ra'ad Lite' ALCM (or just the Turkish SOM) and longer ranged versions of the REK (maybe add booster rockets?) would make the JF-17's conventional attack capability very potent.

It'll also free the Mirages for a very specific set of missions.

In light of all that has been said here earlier, will PAF listen to these words of wisdom?

 

[denel]

Remanufacturing mirages will not require any licencing fees for Dessault as it is "re" manufacturing aircraft that are already possessed by Pak. There is no question of royalties. SA went down this route and I think @denel can testify to this.

Steel (and more importantly aluminum, titanium, and various other metals will be needed. Acquiring these are the easy part. Getting the jigs for the major structural parts are the other issue, and again, these are available from a host of countries (South Africa and possibly other countries such as Belgium, France, Switzerland, Israel).

There is no major barrier to this, just the will to go through with it.

Let us keep the issue simple - not get sidelined with history and M2K and all kinds of other topics.

We have some Mirages. They are some of the simplest desgined fighters in the last 50 years. We are going to remanufacture them. 100 copies. That's it. Just get the project going.

Key is airframe; you need a zero hour; the rest can be cobbled up using Cheetah blue prints and wing jigs. As i have said before, the airframe is one which is very easy and this too can be sourced from Chengdu as a once off using more current alloys vs the old aluminium frames that are more lighter yet stronger.

We can preserve the Mirages even further if we add longer ranged conventional SOWs to the JF-17.

So a Ra'ad Lite' ALCM (or just the Turkish SOM) and longer ranged versions of the REK (maybe add booster rockets?) would make the JF-17's conventional attack capability very potent.

It'll also free the Mirages for a very specific set of missions.

Correct; I see PAF Mirages more and more going towards what Mirage IV had for French strategic command.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I think the idea had some merit in the 1990s but we are past that now. If you want a strategic platform, make better, more compact missiles with longer ranges for use on Thunder.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think the idea had some merit in the 1990s but we are past that now. If you want a strategic platform, make better, more compact missiles with longer ranges for use on Thunder.

If not the Mirages, then we're basically talking about using Project Azm to take up the strategic strike role. In his most recent interview with IHS Jane's (May 2019), the PAF CAS said that they want a twin-engine design for Azm.

I assume they'll think about ground-clearance, payload capacity, and (if they are to use internal bays) internal capacity when designing Azm. Since PAC said the "TF-X is in line with what the PAF want," then a possible avenue would be to have compact ALCMs similar to SOM-J.

The downside though is the ALCM's range; a small frame generally means less fuel, unless you master miniature turbofan and aerostructure technology to a point where you get relatively high fuel-efficiency (and thus, range).

In effect, you'll need to design the payload bay to have room for at least 1 Ra'ad II.

 

[Armchair]

If not the Mirages, then we're basically talking about using Project Azm to take up the strategic strike role. In his most recent interview with IHS Jane's (May 2019), the PAF CAS said that they want a twin-engine design for Azm.

I assume they'll think about ground-clearance, payload capacity, and (if they are to use internal bays) internal capacity when designing Azm. Since PAC said the "TF-X is in line with what the PAF want," then a possible avenue would be to have compact ALCMs similar to SOM-J.

The downside though is the ALCM's range; a small frame generally means less fuel, unless you master miniature turbofan and aerostructure technology to a point where you get relatively high fuel-efficiency (and thus, range).

In effect, you'll need to design the payload bay to have room for at least 1 Ra'ad II.

I think going that route with the Azm will compromise its air superiority role. With a large weapons bay and relatively weak engines, it would neither be an apple nor a banana. We would have something banal.

Perhaps a cost benefit analaysis can be done - if the airframe can be built by Chengdu and rest cobbled together, as Denel just noted. The wings I think we already can make them (???). I would say we can afford 7 million dollars per plane, if it is doable with such a budget we should go for it.

Meanwhile we could pick up the Swiss Mirages. Just sitting there really. And structurally they are superior to any other Mirage IIIs / Vs ever built.

 

[Jammer]

In light of all that has been said here earlier, will PAF listen to these words of wisdom?

I usually do not reply to stupid info on this forum but this took the cake. let me spell it out for you and others, what ever you have arrived at or concluded to has been tried and tested on both sides, trust me.

 

[Armchair]

I usually do not reply to stupid info on this forum but this took the cake. let me spell it out for you and others, what ever you have arrived at or concluded to has been tried and tested on both sides, trust me.

You do understand that Denel has been a professional in this industry and worked on Pak Mirages? Should we take his word for it, or yours?

Arrogance is something that breaks down everything. It breaks down communication and it stops innovation and problem solving.

 

[fatman17]

Sir
With a weight of 1100Kg (if Wikipedia is to be believed) it will be at the higher end of weight load of a wing pylon. The Central pylon will create issues with clearance. So unless the Block 3 comes with further wing strengthening Raad in its current iteration may be too heavy for the JFT. BUT then PAF keeps fiddling around so you never know what they might come up with.
A

Raad may never be used by JFT, however a new advanced ALCM is in the works.