Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Humble Analyst]

No

Glad somebody understands on this forum the capabilities of Mirages and why PAF operates them. Just look at the difference of underwing/underbelly clearance between Mirages and JF17 and that is one aspect.

Could be a great buy given how well maintained and minimally used these birds are. They are also sporting a specially strengthened body. Given that they are Swiss, I heard they also come with chocolate and wrapped in gold foil.

And money in numbered accounts is a bonus.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

I have written it before---the utility of a strike aircraft is different than that of an air superiority platform---.

Where you can get away with a lesser but a functional EW system---for air superiority---you need to be on the top tier---.

It depends.

Some attack missions will occur in contested environments. Just consider Kashmir: it's heavily concentrated with assets on both sides, and in that case, the JF-17 will be key. The PAF can fit the JF-17 with EW/ECM as well as a range of A2G munitions (anti-radiation missiles, LGB, PGB, REK/local-JDAM, etc). Some JF-17s can attack targets, others can escort the attackers. One platform, multiple roles, easy logistics/maintenance.

But the Mirages are more than just a strike asset, they're a strategic strike asset.

This is about having a 100 air platforms to join the 8-11+ submarines and 12+ frigates/corvettes, and dozens of land-based launchers of long-range cruise missiles to strike deep from any point. In this case, the upgrade path (if any) should work on firing longer-ranged, heavier cruise missiles.

Glad somebody understands on this forum the capabilities of Mirages and why PAF operates them. Just look at the difference of underwing/underbelly clearance between Mirages and JF17 and that is one aspect.


And money in numbered accounts is a bonus.

Even in the US, China, and Russia, when a strike platform does well, you keep it and try flying it as long as possible, even when you have newer multi-role assets around.

 

[Armchair]

It depends.

Some attack missions will occur in contested environments. Just consider Kashmir: it's heavily concentrated with assets on both sides, and in that case, the JF-17 will be key. The PAF can fit the JF-17 with EW/ECM as well as a range of A2G munitions (anti-radiation missiles, LGB, PGB, REK/local-JDAM, etc). Some JF-17s can attack targets, others can escort the attackers. One platform, multiple roles, easy logistics/maintenance.

But the Mirages are more than just a strike asset, they're a strategic strike asset.

This is about having a 100 air platforms to join the 8-11+ submarines and 12+ frigates/corvettes, and dozens of land-based launchers of long-range cruise missiles to strike deep from any point. In this case, the upgrade path (if any) should work on firing longer-ranged, heavier cruise missiles.


Even in the US, China, and Russia, when a strike platform does well, you keep it and try flying it as long as possible, even when you have newer multi-role assets around.

If only we could zero hour the airframes and put RD-93s, it would have a significant impact on PAF capabilities without being something to flash and shout about like the F-16s.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If only we could zero hour the airframes and put RD-93s, it would have a significant impact on PAF capabilities without being something to flash and shout about like the F-16s.

In hindsight, it would've been a smart idea to ask Dassault for a local turnkey manufacturing line for the Mirages back in the 1970s/1980s. That way, PAC could've rolled-out its own Cheetah or Kfir.

 

[Armchair]

In hindsight, it would've been a smart idea to ask Dassault for a local turnkey manufacturing line for the Mirages back in the 1970s/1980s. That way, PAC could've rolled-out its own Cheetah or Kfir.

True, at the same time such plants do exist in a number of countries - South Africa, Israel, Belgium, Switzerland, France and Australia all come to mind. There still may be tooling that can be bought from these places.

3D printing technology is a major leap here, many parts now can be manufactured this way. I knew a USAF officer whose work was to only build parts for out of production planes whose parts were not available. He would simply print most of them!

Then there are all kinds of processes like electrolysis that can add a layer of aluminum to a structural part to strengthen it. And various metallurgical processes.

 

[MastanKhan]

But the Mirages are more than just a strike asset, they're a strategic strike asset.
Even in the US, China, and Russia, when a strike platform does well, you keep it and try flying it as long as possible, even when you have newer multi-role assets around.

Hi,

The current updated Mirages basically meet the minimum threshold of the strike element---.

They are an asset because there is nothing else available---or Paf did not get anything else in a timely manner---.

" Even in the US, China, and Russia, when a strike platform does well, you keep it and try flying it as long as possible, even when you have newer multi-role assets around".

Really---are you preaching to the preacher---.

 

[Ultima Thule]

They are an asset because there is nothing else available---or Paf did not get anything else in a timely manner---.

Why you insulting PAF Always, its not PAF job to insist to govt what to buy and what not PAF only recommends, and you also forget previous govts corruptions on defense deals @MastanKhan

 

[denel]

Sounds deadly and a role that is unlikely to become obsolete in a hundred years. @denel what do you think?

Correct, this is completely doable. As i have said many times before, the jigs for wings are still lying at Altas plant; if they plan to keep M3/5 further then it is seriously time to consider going the Super Cheetah route. There is nothing wrong with that mindset. It has been done to great success.

 

[Deltadart]

Correct, this is completely doable. As i have said many times before, the jigs for wings are still lying at Altas plant; if they plan to keep M3/5 further then it is seriously time to consider going the Super Cheetah route. There is nothing wrong with that mindset. It has been done to great success.

I would second what you just stated. PAF has to look seriously into the super cheetah. Even if many think that it's time has long passed.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,
Really---are you preaching to the preacher---.

...even preachers get their convictions reinforced time to time...

Correct, this is completely doable. As i have said many times before, the jigs for wings are still lying at Altas plant; if they plan to keep M3/5 further then it is seriously time to consider going the Super Cheetah route. There is nothing wrong with that mindset. It has been done to great success.

Is the Super Cheetah basically the Cheetah D2 (i.e., with SMR-95/RD-33 etc?)

 

[MastanKhan]

...even preachers get their convictions reinforced time to time...

Hi,

If you have been talking about something for 15-20 years it does not hold much value after that---then newer generation comes in and they start to run with it---.

It is just like your first love---you think no one knows about it---but me the dad who has been through this first love a few times knows about it the moment I look at the face of my kid---but then I have to act stupid as if I did not know---or I have to act stupid knowing my son just jerked off in the restroom and I have to act like it did not happen---hehehe.

 

[Armchair]

From an aerodynamic point of view, Mirages are the cleanest and yet, simplest design in contemporary fighter history. They don't even have slats, or the most minor elements found even in WWII aircraft. The design is a classic. The jigs for these aircraft are available as @denel noted from multiple places.

If we re-manufacture these jets, we will have 30 more years of service from them for a mission that is as relevant today as 30 years ago.

at the bare minimum, if Kamra is too busy, give it to the Air university with some resources, and let them give it a shot with our students and academics. Let them learn by doing rather than parrot memorization.

 

[fatman17]

A bit off topic anyone want to have a guess how mamy jf 17 paf will build for themselves around 250???

150 is the budget target. 200 is a possibility.

 

[Sine Nomine]

One solution is to take a JFT airframe and put a Mirage wing on it. A tailless delta variant with massive fuel tanks F-16 style, conformally. This would be an ultimate hybrid aircraft that would be a very potent strike aircraft.

Think of the space and load carrying capacity and range that this could achieve...

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-xx-strike-fighter.614286/

There was a Bangladeshi poster here---an air force pilot---he wrote a nice complimentary piece on it---.

Sir,share the link.

 

[denel]

...even preachers get their convictions reinforced time to time...


Is the Super Cheetah basically the Cheetah D2 (i.e., with SMR-95/RD-33 etc?)

Yes that is correct. If my memory recollection is correct, the flight envelopes had drastically improved together with fuel efficiency, range as well as take off speed; from balancing the engine into the atar9K; there was not much restructuring required; there were prints for kits as well to replace these engines - it never went to that stage as politically it was stopped for local use but we had failed to gain traction for other markets like Egypt where French had pivoted corrrupt EAF leadership for considering any upgrades which were non French as inferior. We were also trying for Morocco f1 upgrade to RD33 to include HMS plus upgraded radar/HUD - this too was blocked by French lobby in Morocco.