Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[KapitaanAli]

Actually inthink the rose mirages will go before PGs, mostly due to the fact that the oldest of the PG airframes is only 16 years old. People forget that they were built in 2001. If China develops a good HMD then PAF can equip the PGs with Pl-10 or A-darter which have a 20km range. I doubt that PAF will be getting ASRAAM anytime soon, and certainly will not get a missile just for an aircraft type that is being phased out, as ideal as it would have been to increase its longevity. That is not even to address whether or not the brits would sell it to Pakistan. The other alternative is to equip the PGs with LINK 17 and equip them with SD-10s to be guided by JF-17s, ground radars, or AWACS. They are, however, likely far more airworthy than the M3 or M5s even likely moreso than the ROSE Mirages. Frankly, as long as the ROSE mirages are in service, it may be worth setting them up with a similar package, possibly with SD-10 or A_darter. For them, it may be worth getting any remaining R_darters in service with SAAF.

PG airframe is extremely poor. There's no life in them.

 

[GriffinsRule]

PG airframe is extremely poor. There's no life in them.

How are Indian migs still flying then?

As the older Mirage fleet winds down with JF-17 inductions, they will be used as a spare source to support the 3 squadrons that are upgraded. The only reason I see Mirage 5EFs (Rose II, III) to remain in service the longest is due to the fact that they are optimized for night strike sorties due to the FLIR which all other fighters so far lack. I don't imagine its a capability PAF will be willing to give up until there is a suitable replacement.

 

[syed_yusuf]

PG airframe is extremely poor. There's no life in them.

No F-7PG airframe is best airframe ever produced for any Mig-21 variant. its wings are based on MIg-29 technology. get your facts straight. i expect f-7PG to continue solder on till 2025.

How are Indian migs still flying then?

As the older Mirage fleet winds down with JF-17 inductions, they will be used as a spare source to support the 3 squadrons that are upgraded. The only reason I see Mirage 5EFs (Rose II, III) to remain in service the longest is due to the fact that they are optimized for night strike sorties due to the FLIR which all other fighters so far lack. I don't imagine its a capability PAF will be willing to give up until there is a suitable replacement.

all rose 1,2,3 mirages will continue to soldier on for another 5 -7 years. these are modern and upgraded fighters. and are still relevant.

..........

As for the squadrons, I think your list is right. From what I can see, the non-ROSE Mirages are in the following 3 squadrons:

Mirage V PA/PA2/PA3s: No 8 Sqd 'Haiders'
Mirage V PA, Mirage III EP/RP/DP: No 15 Sqd 'Cobras'
Mirage III/V (Mixture of varients): No 22 OCU Sqd 'Ghazis'

ROSE upgraded squadrons are below.
The 40 Mirage V EFs from France are split up between the two tactical attack squadrons,
Mirage V EF: No 25 Sqd 'Eagles' and No 27 Sqd 'Zarrars'.
Mirage III O: No 7 Sqd 'Bandits' as well as a few with the CCS.

For the BVR question, if the Mirages had the capability, it would have been made public by now. But given that there has never been any evidence of such and over the years, different PAF personnel have given interviews stating that we didn't get the BVR missiles until JF-17 and then upgraded F-16s, I think is sufficient for me to think that is perhaps closer to reality.

very well said. next mirage to go are

Mirage V PA, Mirage III EP/RP/DP: No 15 Sqd 'Cobras'
Mirage III/V (Mixture of varients): No 22 OCU Sqd 'Ghazis'

i believe Haiders nights will continue for some time. so the following examples also

Mirage V EF: No 25 Sqd 'Eagles' and No 27 Sqd 'Zarrars'.
Mirage III O: No 7 Sqd 'Bandits' as well as a few with the CCS.

i believe the 5th gen fighter will replace most 3 mirage and 3 f-7PG squadrons. rest will be replaced by JFT.

 

[khanasifm]

Comparing f7 with 23-2400 hours life to mirage 3/5 with fuselage life of 8000 hours and wings life of 2400 hours and pac is rebuild the wings now as well

 

[Armchair-General]

Indeed the Mirage 3/5 series was the best of it's time but these airframes need to be retired within 5 years and replced with new 4.5 or 5th Gen mid to heavy weight fighter for deep strike role.

 

[denel]

No F-7PG airframe is best airframe ever produced for any Mig-21 variant. its wings are based on MIg-29 technology. get your facts straight. i expect f-7PG to continue solder on till 2025.



all rose 1,2,3 mirages will continue to soldier on for another 5 -7 years. these are modern and upgraded fighters. and are still relevant.



very well said. next mirage to go are

Mirage V PA, Mirage III EP/RP/DP: No 15 Sqd 'Cobras'
Mirage III/V (Mixture of varients): No 22 OCU Sqd 'Ghazis'

i believe Haiders nights will continue for some time. so the following examples also

Mirage V EF: No 25 Sqd 'Eagles' and No 27 Sqd 'Zarrars'.
Mirage III O: No 7 Sqd 'Bandits' as well as a few with the CCS.

i believe the 5th gen fighter will replace most 3 mirage and 3 f-7PG squadrons. rest will be replaced by JFT.

For Mig-21F series; i do concur PG is the most improved overall; but Bison with upgrades is still as potent. Again depends on the criteria for performance. It is amazing still to see an old design given a huge improvement nevertheless.

Indeed, I expect Rose to be around for a while as there is no replacement for deep strike; unless there is a dedicated version that can be put up to replace. The time for remaining Mirage is over. If kamra had the fore sight they would have taken license for Mirage and evolved it e.g. replace the Atar engine with a Russian turbofan and better avionics which Atlas probably did suggest but PAF was under the influence of French; or alternatively gotten Mirage F1s.

Anyway, past is past, look forward but learn from the past is what i am trying to pass on.

 

[syed_yusuf]

For Mig-21F series; i do concur PG is the most improved overall; but Bison with upgrades is still as potent. Again depends on the criteria for performance. It is amazing still to see an old design given a huge improvement nevertheless.

Indeed, I expect Rose to be around for a while as there is no replacement for deep strike; unless there is a dedicated version that can be put up to replace. The time for remaining Mirage is over. If kamra had the fore sight they would have taken license for Mirage and evolved it e.g. replace the Atar engine with a Russian turbofan and better avionics which Atlas probably did suggest but PAF was under the influence of French; or alternatively gotten Mirage F1s.

Anyway, past is past, look forward but learn from the past is what i am trying to pass on.

Yes totally agreed

 

[khanasifm]

 

[araz]

For Mig-21F series; i do concur PG is the most improved overall; but Bison with upgrades is still as potent. Again depends on the criteria for performance. It is amazing still to see an old design given a huge improvement nevertheless.

Indeed, I expect Rose to be around for a while as there is no replacement for deep strike; unless there is a dedicated version that can be put up to replace. The time for remaining Mirage is over. If kamra had the fore sight they would have taken license for Mirage and evolved it e.g. replace the Atar engine with a Russian turbofan and better avionics which Atlas probably did suggest but PAF was under the influence of French; or alternatively gotten Mirage F1s.

Anyway, past is past, look forward but learn from the past is what i am trying to pass on.

Great post. Totally agreed. However it was around the early 2000s and following the 2002 standoff between India and Pakistan. The French embargoed the Rose Mirages and the last Agosta was also delayed. Russia was totally unreliable and selling heavily to India. As such I dont think the supplies would have been assured. PAF took a strategic decision to move on towards our own venture rather than waste meagre resources on upgrades with limited outcome. When Russian relations thawed it was probably too late for the Mirages and 16s were still on the card.So till the US started its games again PAF was hopeful for a mix of newer and older 16s for fleet reinforcements. So timelines and geographical and political realities came in the line of such advancements/ thoughts. PAF did have some thoughts and the Cheetahs were assessed but we ended up buying wings rather than the whole idea. My 2 pennies worth.
A

 

[syed_yusuf]

Regardless of what right it wrong paf did, now with JFT and azm it is on right track

 

[khanasifm]

 

[syed zia Hassan]

last few years in Karachi Mirages crashed ..on tactical reasons as per PAF report to media and Pilots loss their life no ejection seen ... and not juniors all wing commander and Sql leaders. huge loss of PAF .. I mentioned before why not PAF should ground mirages. stop its patrolling. because of its time is over just like F-6 and A-5 and FT5s, even I say time is over of F-7ps too. anyways PAF is in hard time. They Build very quickly Jf-17s thunder to replace Mirages and F-7p. but during this time if Mirages will retired today ..what problem have to face. Its not a Air war time yet . PAF used Air to Ground Attacks on their operations along with Border side Afghanistan. but Mirages now in not trust able conditions to Fly more. Metal is also AGE time. no need to upgrade its allover. build a new Mirage is also loss of funds.. Technology performance everything is change now. We are worry then Mirages III and 5, in the Sky of Pakistan.​

 

[Readerdefence]

last few years in Karachi Mirages crashed ..on tactical reasons as per PAF report to media and Pilots loss their life no ejection seen ... and not juniors all wing commander and Sql leaders. huge loss of PAF .. I mentioned before why not PAF should ground mirages. stop its patrolling. because of its time is over just like F-6 and A-5 and FT5s, even I say time is over of F-7ps too. anyways PAF is in hard time. They Build very quickly Jf-17s thunder to replace Mirages and F-7p. but during this time if Mirages will retired today ..what problem have to face. Its not a Air war time yet . PAF used Air to Ground Attacks on their operations along with Border side Afghanistan. but Mirages now in not trust able conditions to Fly more. Metal is also AGE time. no need to upgrade its allover. build a new Mirage is also loss of funds.. Technology performance everything is change now. We are worry then Mirages III and 5, in the Sky of Pakistan.​

Hi I know you are not comfortable with mirage fighters crash rate and loss of the precious
Life of our elite pilots but please do keep couple of points in your mind before you fully
Retired the mirages
1 none of your fleet of fighters except mirage can carry Raad ( one of the ace arsenal in PAF)
2 you don’t have any proper deep strike bomber ( and for that you have spend quiet a lot to upgrade mirage fleet)
3 what is the answer of retiring the mirage fleet until unless you have the replacement ready
4 in this case you will loose your fighter squadron strength also
Your reply will be appreciated
Thank you

 

[syed zia Hassan]

Hi I know you are not comfortable with mirage fighters crash rate and loss of the precious
Life of our elite pilots but please do keep couple of points in your mind before you fully
Retired the mirages
1 none of your fleet of fighters except mirage can carry Raad ( one of the ace arsenal in PAF)
2 you don’t have any proper deep strike bomber ( and for that you have spend quiet a lot to upgrade mirage fleet)
3 what is the answer of retiring the mirage fleet until unless you have the replacement ready
4 in this case you will loose your fighter squadron strength also
Your reply will be appreciated
Thank you

ok Sir, First of all .I am not against the Mirages they are best of their time No Question about that. and yes we dont have a bomber for long range Strike . and but did we have in past ? no. today we dont have strike in Jerusalem .. today we just have to defend only...........the situation is much different then 1990, even 2010. today we just have to defend Pakistan Aerospace. Long Range Air craft today Like Su-34 as you mentioned its call a good replacement as today world .. any why.
as you say look around Pakistan U.S A policy change to Pakistan they Give India every thing and ignore Pakistan like forget about .. its very difficult time for Pakistan Air force. only Choice to Build Jf-17s as soon as possible. that why I said no need to fly Mirages in this conditions. tell me if PAF loose a Fighter Squadron for a little time what we loss??? Sir PAF have already no Way to Go .. Only F-16s and Jf 17s are the Front and Back bone to fight every situation its .hard to believe but its true... BVR system is a Sharp killer to F-7ps mirages you know that...

That are my points to say Please stop patrolling Mirages ..its create problems to PAF

 

[MastanKhan]

ok Sir, First of all .I am not against the Mirages they are best of their time No Question about that. and yes we dont have a bomber for long range Strike . and but did we have in past ? no. today we dont have strike in Jerusalem .. today we just have to defend only...........the situation is much different then 1990, even 2010. today we just have to defend Pakistan Aerospace. Long Range Air craft today Like Su-34 as you mentioned its call a good replacement as today world .. any why.
as you say look around Pakistan U.S A policy change to Pakistan they Give India every thing and ignore Pakistan like forget about .. its very difficult time for Pakistan Air force. only Choice to Build Jf-17s as soon as possible. that why I said no need to fly Mirages in this conditions. tell me if PAF loose a Fighter Squadron for a little time what we loss??? Sir PAF have already no Way to Go .. Only F-16s and Jf 17s are the Front and Back bone to fight every situation its .hard to believe but its true... BVR system is a Sharp killer to F-7ps mirages you know that...

That are my points to say Please stop patrolling Mirages ..its create problems to PAF

Hi,

There is no defence without offence---.

People who can only defend---have DIED a horrible death.