Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Deltadart]

I'd say the difference is that the folks asking for a Mirage reframe want an extra few squadrons of SOW carriers. So, attack distant targets from well within Pakistani borders, don't cross them. For that role a refresh is a good idea. It'll free up the JF-17s for air-to-air, which makes accessing Pakistani airspace tougher.

Fact is upgraded/new mirages are a necessity. The number of f16s will not increase. Jf17s will do fine for what they are designed. So there is still a need for large number of mirages to accomplish other missions. If we get rid of mirages then what is going to take their place? Our economic condition is not exemplary, and besides , not many sellers out there who would sell us what we want. I don't see any urgency on the part of PAF in this regard. God help us.

 

[SQ8]

Fact is upgraded/new mirages are a necessity. The number of f16s will not increase. Jf17s will do fine for what they are designed. So there is still a need for large number of mirages to accomplish other missions. If we get rid of mirages then what is going to take their place? Our economic condition is not exemplary, and besides , not many sellers out there who would sell us what we want. I don't see any urgency on the part of PAF in this regard. God help us.

Lets rephrase that to a new strike platform is a necessity. PAF is extremely happy with the JF-17 in the air combat role , the F-16 provides a good mix as well. They want a replacement for the Mirages as the deep strike platform.

Since no M2Ks are available, and besides the J-10 there is nothing we can afford; the only option is to prolong the life of the mirages we have by total overhaul and replacement of key fuselage sections as needed.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Lets rephrase that to a new strike platform is a necessity. PAF is extremely happy with the JF-17 in the air combat role , the F-16 provides a good mix as well. They want a replacement for the Mirages as the deep strike platform.

Since no M2Ks are available, and besides the J-10 there is nothing we can afford; the only option is to prolong the life of the mirages we have by total overhaul and replacement of key fuselage sections as needed.

Honestly, even if the PAF could field a new strike platform (the original plan was for 36 new fighters) for strategic roles and offload all conventional strike work to the JF-17, there's a benefit to having additional strike platforms in the Mirage III/5. If anything, it's 3~5 squadrons of nuclear attack fighters; and with much reduced operations, the PAF can keep them around for a very long time. If anything, it's dozens of additional headaches for India (especially now since we've proved the Mirages are a credible strike threat).

 

[Dreamer.]

The question that has never been answered is that why PAF can't get another strike platform? Sure western and russian options may be difficult but the chinese option is open. If we can do JF-17 than why not a delta platform in similar league?
Neither a new joint project for a delta plane in jf-17 league, nor existing chinese planes i.e. J-10 or JH-7 etc. nor even the so called 'advanced mirages' with new airframes (the idea that is being discussed here) are too difficult to get done for the PAF.

Yet, if there is no movement in this regard then I think that PAF probably feels that it has enough mirages itself and also enough are available in the world (and accessible too for PAF) to make the need for new airframes unnecessary. It would mean that PAF feels that not only enough planes are there but also that upgrades can be done to existing airframes that are sufficient for its requirements and hence no need to go build one might say a 'Mirage Neo'.

As for a new strike platform, I suspect that PAF wants it but has set its sights higher and is willing to wait for it up until the time that it can do no more with mirages. Unfortunately that time might be some time yet......

 

[araz]

The question that has never been answered is that why PAF can't get another strike platform? Sure western and russian options may be difficult but the chinese option is open. If we can do JF-17 than why not a delta platform in similar league?
Neither a new joint project for a delta plane in jf-17 league, nor existing chinese planes i.e. J-10 or JH-7 etc. nor even the so called 'advanced mirages' with new airframes (the idea that is being discussed here) are too difficult to get done for the PAF.

Yet, if there is no movement in this regard then I think that PAF probably feels that it has enough mirages itself and also enough are available in the world (and accessible too for PAF) to make the need for new airframes unnecessary. It would mean that PAF feels that not only enough planes are there but also that upgrades can be done to existing airframes that are sufficient for its requirements and hence no need to go build one might say a 'Mirage Neo'.

As for a new strike platform, I suspect that PAF wants it but has set its sights higher and is willing to wait for it up until the time that it can do no more with mirages. Unfortunately that time might be some time yet......

Finances have been a problem. Till fairly recently the J10 used the AL31 engine which was not cleared by Russia for sle to PAF. Now that the WS10 series are being produced and maturing it has become possible for us to talk about procuring them. The last point is that J10 is pretty near to JFT in range and capability so people have been thinking about what it brings on the table to buy it if the capabilities are in the ball park. J11/16 on the other hand might be a better bet if it can be bought (a big if) .
A

 

[Dreamer.]

The last point is that J10 is pretty near to JFT in range and capability so people have been thinking about what it brings on the table to buy it if the capabilities are in the ball park. J11/16 on the other hand might be a better bet if it can be bought (a big if)

Hence my point that PAF has set its sights higher and is willing to wait for better options.

As for the J-10, is it similar in range? wouldn't make sense given it is much bigger plane. Besides if PAF prefers a delta for strike than J-10 is a delta.

 

[Deltadart]

Nothing wrong with setting the sights high, but also be mindful of what we can actually afford to acquire, and not be waiting forever for the dream plane.

 

[Sine Nomine]

We mod'd

On lighter note how much testing and change was done to make it happen?

 

[mshan44]

 

[Ali_Baba]

Credit to PAF, the Mirages which are as old as the IAF Mig21s look so much better maintained than the IAF Mig21s, the different is night and day. The Mirage rebuild factory was worth the investment and has paid for itself, many times over now.

 

[denel]

On lighter note how much testing and change was done to make it happen?

Not much effort; remember we already had experience with mod'd original M3 and F1 for HMS, Kukris as well as other integration points; 20 yrs back did TEWA on Cheetah platform nothing complex.

Honestly, even if the PAF could field a new strike platform (the original plan was for 36 new fighters) for strategic roles and offload all conventional strike work to the JF-17, there's a benefit to having additional strike platforms in the Mirage III/5. If anything, it's 3~5 squadrons of nuclear attack fighters; and with much reduced operations, the PAF can keep them around for a very long time. If anything, it's dozens of additional headaches for India (especially now since we've proved the Mirages are a credible strike threat).

Absolutely, this is why a new upgrade is a necessity to create a standardised modern M3/5. There is nothing better on the plate right now.

 

[khanasifm]

If looks can Kill

nothing to do with looks soviet and French technology’s of 50 were different and approach different

Some of the concept are different no th has pro can cons


Cheers

 

[Deltadart]

Not much effort; remember we already had experience with mod'd original M3 and F1 for HMS, Kukris as well as other integration points; 20 yrs back did TEWA on Cheetah platform nothing complex.


Absolutely, this is why a new upgrade is a necessity to create a standardised modern M3/5. There is nothing better on the plate right now.

I am beginning to think that all these discussions are a waste of time. Those who should be seriously planning for this upgrade are dreaming day and night about f16s. They couldn't careless. If they wanted to go for cheetah upgrade then they would have done it already. As you stated earlier that your firm approached PAF with various proposals regarding mirages, but no one was serious about it.
Enemy is watching us closely. They have learned their lessons from the encounter earlier this year. Next time they will come with their new stuff and well prepared to take on PAF. But we will be fighting with exactly the same stuff, without any upgrades. Not a good situation to be in.

 

[araz]

Lets rephrase that to a new strike platform is a necessity. PAF is extremely happy with the JF-17 in the air combat role , the F-16 provides a good mix as well. They want a replacement for the Mirages as the deep strike platform.

Since no M2Ks are available, and besides the J-10 there is nothing we can afford; the only option is to prolong the life of the mirages we have by total overhaul and replacement of key fuselage sections as needed.

Credit to PAF, the Mirages which are as old as the IAF Mig21s look so much better maintained than the IAF Mig21s, the different is night and day. The Mirage rebuild factory was worth the investment and has paid for itself, many times over now.

True but there is a very vast difference between the USSR and French designs and robustness. The J7 series has a frame life of 2000 hours whereas M3 frames are designed for 8000hrs. The design philosophies were vastly different as were expertise in building materials

A

 

[denel]

I am beginning to think that all these discussions are a waste of time. Those who should be seriously planning for this upgrade are dreaming day and night about f16s. They couldn't careless. If they wanted to go for cheetah upgrade then they would have done it already. As you stated earlier that your firm approached PAF with various proposals regarding mirages, but no one was serious about it.
Enemy is watching us closely. They have learned their lessons from the encounter earlier this year. Next time they will come with their new stuff and well prepared to take on PAF. But we will be fighting with exactly the same stuff, without any upgrades. Not a good situation to be in.

It is a complete waste of time discussion; it is 2 decades now - yes, they got the IFRs from us that are on M's plus other goodies; IFRs then go over to JF17s. Cheetah/Shaheen platform as i named it is a no brainer - remember we replaced the archaic 9C with 9K engine on all Cheetahs; plus a demo with RD engine.
What we have observed of Pak is simple, they prefer to get into a bad state before doing anything. Even then they dont wake up. God help us all
I saw IK's speech in UN. He is 200% on the spot. He is the first PM who i respect and spoke from the heart.

100% agreed ... for years we listened indian media keep praising about their Mig-21s, they upgraded it time by time with the help of Israel and Russia but when it appeared in front of opponent it bring humiliation for entire nation, in its own time in 19th century Mirage was a good aircraft but its time is over let it be retire with honor and dignity

Disagree with you. It is exactly that reason why it needs to be reworked into a next gen platform. All the pieces are there but there is no will from Pak side. There are no monies else where. As noted before at least put 60 of these into cheetah type upgrade for strategic role.