Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Bilal Khan 777]

What if we start building an improved version of this with RD-93 engine and DSI Intakes?

Using same airframe deisgn with DSI intakes and components from these airfarmes.
@Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777

This was the original project of South Africans, to re-engine Mirage with RD. However, these aircraft have outlived their airframe lives and we have bought every possible mirage anywhere in any form. They have to go now.

 

[Sine Nomine]

This was the original project of South Africans, to re-engine Mirage with RD.

I know sir SMR 95 was that engine and airframes are very old and have crossed their life cycle mark.

However, these aircraft have outlived their airframe lives and we have bought every possible mirage anywhere in any form. They have to go now.

Nodoubt about it,but what about internal components?
Is it feasible to build new improved Airframe on lines of Cheeth C Airframe with DSI intakes from same material which is being used in JFT construction and using RD93 as power plant.Then cannibalize Mirage ROSE for parts to built internals of new airframe.
My opinion is cost would be around 5 to 6 million.

P.S:In current sitution,i have zero optimism regarding any new acquisition other then used F-16 which too are possible if mood of uncle sam is good or may be geting funded a J-10C deal from China.
Salute to those brave souls who are flying Mirages

In short you want the J10C. I think PAF is enamoured but torn between one or two engines.
A

J-10c won't be less then 60 million dollar a pop.With training and development for new infrastructure for complete new engine and avionics package that would be around 100 million USD(may be more).A price we can't pay.

 

[araz]

I know sir SMR 95 was that engine and airframes are very old and have crossed their life cycle mark.


Nodoubt about it,but what about internal components?
Is it feasible to build new improved Airframe on lines of Cheeth C Airframe with DSI intakes from same material which is being used in JFT construction and using RD93 as power plant.Then cannibalize Mirage ROSE for parts to built internals of new airframe.
My opinion is cost would be around 5 to 6 million.

P.S:In current sitution,i have zero optimism regarding any new acquisition other then used F-16 which too are possible if mood of uncle sam is good or may be geting funded a J-10C deal from China.
Salute to those brave souls who are flying Mirages


J-10c won't be less then 60 million dollar a pop.With training and development for new infrastructure for complete new engine and avionics package that would be around 100 million USD(may be more).A price we can't pay.

What you are suggesting wont be much cheaper. The whole air frame will have to be re manufactured, a new engine tested and incorporated. Then testing, tweeking and retesting. It is time and cost prohibitive. PAF may have to buy the licence to rebuild the whole frame from the French. So from many aspects it will be very expensive.
A

 

[Sine Nomine]

What you are suggesting wont be much cheaper. The whole air frame will have to be re manufactured, a new engine tested and incorporated. Then testing, tweeking and retesting. It is time and cost prohibitive.

I agree but that would still be much less then developing a new one or getting a new one.
New Airframe would weight less then older one may be more then a Ton.
Engine would be 50 inches shorter in length but same in dia and 400 kg approx lighter.
DSI intakes instead of existing one would alter flight characteristics.
This would take testing, tweeking and retesting but won't consume much time.

PAF may have to buy the licence to rebuild the whole frame from the French. So from many aspects it will be very expensive.

Sir,i don't think so french would drag us on a plane having that description.

Details description would look like.
Fitting of non-moving canards just aft of the engine intakes,DSI intakes, two new stores pylons at the wing roots, an aerial refuelling probe, new ejection seats, a more powerful engine (RD 93), a new main wing spar along with a new "drooping" leading edge and a dog-tooth incision on each wing, modern elevons and strakes on the nose to improve the high (AoA) performance.
(Copied from cheetah and changed)​

 

[denel]

What you are suggesting wont be much cheaper. The whole air frame will have to be re manufactured, a new engine tested and incorporated. Then testing, tweeking and retesting. It is time and cost prohibitive. PAF may have to buy the licence to rebuild the whole frame from the French. So from many aspects it will be very expensive.
A

I concur with Araz, that time is long past. Correction, at Atlas entire frame remanufacturing line was present together with all newer additions for composite material replacement used in Cheetah C/D. instead of going the Rose route, that was a very strong advantage which was not pursued. Alternative in parallel entire F1/RD33 upgrade path could too have been pursued.

 

[Sine Nomine]

P.S:Excuse my naivety, but a poor man always thinks about recycling

 

[denel]

P.S:Excuse my naivety, but a poor man always thinks about recycling

.... evolution through recycling and reuse. In other words kaizen principles. nothing wrong with it.

 

[Sine Nomine]

I concur with Araz, that time is long past. Correction, at Atlas entire frame remanufacturing line was present together with all newer additions for composite material replacement used in Cheetah C/D. instead of going the Rose route, that was a very strong advantage which was not pursued. Alternative in parallel entire F1/RD33 upgrade path could too have been pursued.

We did wrong by not going on that way but we have invested lot of amount inside those Mirages.That's like having, installed a new world class electric wiring and appliances+sanitary equipment in a house that's structure is going to fall apart.Now problem is that new world class equipment,what we should do with it?

 

[denel]

We did wrong by not going on that way but we have invested lot of amount inside those Mirages.That's like having, installed a new world class electric wiring and appliances+sanitary equipment in a house that's structure is going to fall apart.Now problem is that new world class equipment,what we should do with it?

That has been my personal grip with your people; i mean we had Atlas engineers there and the opportunities were made available but never followed. Can you imagine, the entire mixed bag of M3/M5 variants could have all been converted over to a new fleet of Cheetahs with 9K50s or even RD33.

 

[Sine Nomine]

That has been my personal grip with your people; i mean we had Atlas engineers there and the opportunities were made available but never followed. Can you imagine, the entire mixed bag of M3/M5 variants could have all been converted over to a new fleet of Cheetahs with 9K50s or even RD33.

Even during so much hard time,we still can't departure from Perfection,if no sanctions would have happened,there would have no JFT because that wasn't upto mark sitting in our minds.
If we would have on atlas way,that would have been a beast now.

 

[denel]

Even during so much hard time,we still can't departure from Perfection,if no sanctions would have happened,there would have no JFT because that wasn't upto mark sitting in our minds.
If we would have on atlas way,that would have been a beast now.

Yes, we went those routes back in 70s when entire procurements were cut. Sanctions are good!.

 

[khanasifm]

Yes, we went those routes back in 70s when entire procurements were cut. Sanctions are good!.

Sanctions were basically accelerator for jf program even in 80s paf knew they needed an aircraft which would be ~Same performance but at substantial lower cost to f-16s to replace older fleet as paf could not afford all out f-16 fleet

Finally non availability and affordability of western aircraft put emphasis on jf program

 

[MystryMan]

That has been my personal grip with your people; i mean we had Atlas engineers there and the opportunities were made available but never followed. Can you imagine, the entire mixed bag of M3/M5 variants could have all been converted over to a new fleet of Cheetahs with 9K50s or even RD33.

In my opinion J-10C with CFTs would be better option to replace ROSE Mirages.

 

[denel]

In my opinion J-10C with CFTs would be better option to replace ROSE Mirages.

yes. this is remininsing about the past

 

[MIRauf]

JF-17 came about because of Tiananman Square Stand off, not due to sanctions. If US Gov't hadn't blocked Grumman from assisting with Saber-II, there probably be no JF-17.