Bahrain Airshow: What to expect? Tejas vs JF-17

[HariPrasad]

Tejas has a lots of potential to improve as a platform. Aerodynamic improvements is on card. Wing redesign, air intake redesign and and weight reduction is also planned. In its current avatar also, Tejas is a very good fighter. By 2018, it shall be transformed into an lethal fighter.

 

[knight11]

This is one area where I do not like RAFALE. I still do not understand why the French did not bother about retractable one. Do not know how it impacts the RCS & performance but surely impacts the beauty. May be they were worried about the maintenance/safety issues.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @FrenchPilot @mike2000 is back

Fixed IFR or Retractable IFR is not for the beauty and have only one purpose i.e aerial refuelling.

Fixed IFR may be cheaper with less compexity, and could be taken out depending on the mission. LCA might need all the time, with the range of Airbus fleet of tankers, and MKI budy budy, LCA will be able to fly for long time in air.

 

[~HaMzAaD~]

As per the news Tejas will only participated as a static display.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

This is one area where I do not like RAFALE. I still do not understand why the French did not bother about retractable one. Do not know how it impacts the RCS & performance but surely impacts the beauty. May be they were worried about the maintenance/safety issues.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @FrenchPilot @mike2000 is back

What i understand is the Mirage family or Rafale also has fixed probes chiefly bcz its

• more reliable
• stronger than retractable
• less expensive
• lighter in weight
• Also a good deal of redesign to change plumbing lines to accommodate a new retractable probe.

When one looks at the Rafale, considering that its Low Observability is touted as an advantage, a fixed probe will have an associated penalty of RCS (especially frontal RCS), but it will not be that significant which warrants a complete redesign to include a retractable probe implying a marginal increase which does not increase the overall RCS may be more than 3%-5%

BTW officially Dassault says this

• "the refuelling probe is fixed in order to avoid any deployment or retraction problem."

Mission ready with low operating costs

In a nutshell a fixed refueling probe inspite of slight increase in frontal RCS ensures spare, maintenance man hours and support equipment reduction.

@FrenchPilot @Abingdonboy @anant_s

 

[karakoram]

As per the news Tejas will only participated as a static display.

Lolzz and source for your claim?

 

[anant_s]

View attachment 281214

Calling all Indo-Pak aviation enthusiasts to come and share their views, wishes and expectations on the format of the flight displays of the two jets. JF-17 and Tejas.

for our part of the world of over a billion. the flight displays of the two jets will be the highlight of the show. most of us have already seen what jF-17 has pulled off in its most recent domestic and international flight displays.

turns, rolls, vertical flight, high alpha and loops etc are pretty much predicted and given the known specs of the jet together with its well documented flight display. both IAF and PAF have a benchmark or a starting point.

I wonder how far will both try to outdo their last respective flight displays? given the safety perimeters enforced by the show organizers and our safety protocols.


so come on people here is a challenge for you. without trolling and flaming .. just share your positive and constructive views

Sir,
2 decades back it was impossible to think that Air Show circuit, which was (& to large extent still) dominated by a handful of vendors from Russia, US and Europe, see participation of products by developing countries.
Today the very fact that both India and Pakistan are fielding their home grown products, shows how time has changed and phenomenal growth of domestic industry.
LCA and JF 17 will compete for same market viz airforces with limited CAPEX budget and this should bring in a freedom of choice for buyers, who in some cases had to compromise with their foreign policy to get hardware for national security.
I also hope that more such products will be launched in civil aviation market too which is expanding at a rapid click globally.
Best wishes for all participating teams in show.

 

[gambit]

This is one area where I do not like RAFALE. I still do not understand why the French did not bother about retractable one. Do not know how it impacts the RCS & performance but surely impacts the beauty. May be they were worried about the maintenance/safety issues.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @FrenchPilot @mike2000 is back

The non-retractable refueling probe is irrelevant in terms of RCS.

The above is how any radar 'sees' a body, in this case it is an aircraft. Each spike is a voltage spike from a structure on the aircraft. Small structures that are close together usually create an electronically larger structure. As you can see, the spike are nothing like how we visually sees an aircraft, but there is a pattern to these spikes. Not only that, the spikes are in a cluster. So as far as the seeking radar is concerned, if there is a cluster of spikes and there is a pattern to them, the radar will flag this cluster as a target.

So when I said that the non-retractable refuel probe is irrelevant to Rafale's RCS, I do not mean that the probe does not contribute to final RCS. As a structure, the refueling probe DOES contribute. It is irrelevant in the sense that unless other structures are worked upon to reduce their contributions, it is pointless to create a retractable refueling probe just for RCS control reasons. To control RCS, you can spend a lot of money to redesign the Rafale to have a retractable refuel probe, but if the bombs/missiles are still on the wings, all that money is wasted.

 

[Windjammer]

The news is that the JF-17 may not be participating.
The organisers are insisting that PAF brings JF-17, Mashak and other equipment to the show but due to certain other commitments, PAF hasn't yet confirmed it's participation, the final decision will be given by the end of this month.

 

[The Eagle]

The news is that the JF-17 may not be participating.
The organisers are insisting that PAF brings JF-17, Mashak and other equipment to the show but due to certain other commitments, PAF hasn't yet confirmed it's participation, the final decision will be given by the end of this month.

Sir Ji..... Though it would be sad not to see JF-17 in air at Bahrain Airshow but JF-17 has proved a lot already by participating previously in Airshows. However, let Tejas fly alone to prove ability whatever it claimed yet so no competitor means prove yourself else don't bother to say that Tejas presence faded due to competitor.
Pakistan Zindabad

 

[Windjammer]

Sir Ji..... Though it would be sad not to see JF-17 in air at Bahrain Airshow but JF-17 has proved a lot already by participating previously in Airshows. However, let Tejas fly alone to prove ability whatever it claimed yet so no competitor means prove yourself else don't bother to say that Tejas presence faded due to competitor.
Pakistan Zindabad

These shows aren't meant for viewing pleasure, rather they are meant to attract customers hence PAF didn't bother to participate in last DAS, as it has it's hands full.

 

[The Eagle]

These shows aren't meant for viewing pleasure, rather they are meant to attract customers hence PAF didn't bother to participate in last DAS, as it has it's hands full.

Exactly that's the point meant to highlight and a little try of mine to stop pre-rant situation however as per my idea, JF-17 participation in any future Airshows will not be "Show The Bird" or "Hey Look, It Can Fly" anymore as world has seen and itself has battle proven so level of participation for JF-17 is now upgraded where Tejas has a long way to come head par yet.

Pakistan Zindabad...

 

[My-Analogous]

damn i will miss it by a whisker. I am attending a conference in Dubai from 25-28th !

Bahrain is another country and not part of UAE

 

[dadeechi]

The non-retractable refueling probe is irrelevant in terms of RCS.

The above is how any radar 'sees' a body, in this case it is an aircraft. Each spike is a voltage spike from a structure on the aircraft. Small structures that are close together usually create an electronically larger structure. As you can see, the spike are nothing like how we visually sees an aircraft, but there is a pattern to these spikes. Not only that, the spikes are in a cluster. So as far as the seeking radar is concerned, if there is a cluster of spikes and there is a pattern to them, the radar will flag this cluster as a target.

So when I said that the non-retractable refuel probe is irrelevant to Rafale's RCS, I do not mean that the probe does not contribute to final RCS. As a structure, the refueling probe DOES contribute. It is irrelevant in the sense that unless other structures are worked upon to reduce their contributions, it is pointless to create a retractable refueling probe just for RCS control reasons. To control RCS, you can spend a lot of money to redesign the Rafale to have a retractable refuel probe, but if the bombs/missiles are still on the wings, all that money is wasted.

Tha

The non-retractable refueling probe is irrelevant in terms of RCS.

The above is how any radar 'sees' a body, in this case it is an aircraft. Each spike is a voltage spike from a structure on the aircraft. Small structures that are close together usually create an electronically larger structure. As you can see, the spike are nothing like how we visually sees an aircraft, but there is a pattern to these spikes. Not only that, the spikes are in a cluster. So as far as the seeking radar is concerned, if there is a cluster of spikes and there is a pattern to them, the radar will flag this cluster as a target.

So when I said that the non-retractable refuel probe is irrelevant to Rafale's RCS, I do not mean that the probe does not contribute to final RCS. As a structure, the refueling probe DOES contribute. It is irrelevant in the sense that unless other structures are worked upon to reduce their contributions, it is pointless to create a retractable refueling probe just for RCS control reasons. To control RCS, you can spend a lot of money to redesign the Rafale to have a retractable refuel probe, but if the bombs/missiles are still on the wings, all that money is wasted.

Thank you Sir. Understand the key reason

"To control RCS, you can spend a lot of money to redesign the Rafale to have a retractable" refuel probe, but if the bombs/missiles are still on the wings, all that money is wasted

 

[sohail.ishaque]

It would be great to see both beasts in action over the same air space in the same time. I do hope Tejas will give some impressive air performance unlike before on the other hand, it would again be a great opportunity for JF-17 Thunder to attract some more buyers, despite the fact the burden of orders has already increased the production work here too much, Honestly.

i still don't know any confirmed deal. can u plz enlighten me ?

 

[Foxtrot-Bravo]

i still don't know any confirmed deal. can u plz enlighten me ?

Well the deals have not been publicized yet but the jordanian pilots are already here, doing test flights on JF-17 Thunder, production for Nigeria or Myanmar (Not confirm) has already begun in PAC, while one of these is confirmed to be buying and the other one seems interested.