Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[SgtGungHo]

Why should Turkey buy US UAVs? Right now, they are using indigenous ones more ore less successful. They have a huge fleet with modern types of UAVs. So, I don’t understand why they should stop developing production and research and purchase US ones.

I did not say they should stop producing their own UAVs. Turkey requested approval of purchase for Reaper and other American UAVs. I believe Turkey operates only Predator and (Israeli Heron), but I want them to operate other American UAVs and see how do they fare against Russian air-defense system.

Yes, in numbers they have a huge fleet, but doubt in quality. We talk about a 40 years old tanks which does not work well in Syria. Not because of bad quality of Leopard tank, but the times has changed, and the old Leopard can no longer meet the requirements and challenges in the new battlegrounds.

Couldn't they just upgrade their existing fleets of Leopard2A4 to Leopard2A6+? I am sure Turkey has capability to do that.

 

[Agha Sher]

You are right but Turkey is developing new types of A2G missiles plus you can have thousands of PGMs(both turkish made and JDAM) that can be put on the new drones like Akinci/Aksungur
In the worst case TAF can use multiple MAM-L on one tank
Both Akinci and Aksungir will have power to carry more than 20+MAM-L/C and other variants(Akinci can reach 30 without problems I am talking about the specific situation where these big UCAVs are weaponised ONLY with MAM-L)
I can say that my arguments still stand from previous posts(tanks have no chance against UCAVs certainly not against those who have ~1 ton of weapons payload

If the enemy has a potent air force UCAVs such as TB2, Anka, Aksungar etc. will not see any combat. They will be shot down easily. Therefore, it is still important to have potent MBTs.

 

[Bismarck]

I did not say they should stop producing their own UAVs. Turkey requested approval of purchase for Reaper and other American UAVs. I believe Turkey operates only Predator and (Israeli Heron), but I want them to operate other American UAVs and see how do they fare against Russian air-defense system.

Understood. In this case, Russia and USA should be more interested (which they are) who’s system are ‚better‘ performed, don’t you.

Couldn't they just upgrade their existing fleets of Leopard2A4 to Leopard2A6+? I am sure Turkey has capability to do that.

I doubt that they can upgrade the system to 2A6, even they have the permission. Every system has a lifespan, this of 2A4 come slowly to an end. Yes, they have a similar project by Aselsan, but I doubt it is suitable. A new generation tank is necessary. Look, even we are working on a new generation of a tank, despite the fact that we have 2A6/7. Called Leopard 3.

 

[UkroTurk]

You can cover neither your every tank nor ever soldier with airdefense even though with MANPADS. However many UAVs fly over altitude of MANPADS.
That's how war works. Who uses own resources efficiently , that side wins.
Tactical leadership more important than MBTs.
Active protection systems and SAM systems are expensive toys you can't use them immensely.
In addition i don't mention about time. How long your army maintain expensive toys in war? 2 years? 5 years?

 

[SgtGungHo]

Look, even we are working on a new generation of a tank, despite the fact that we have 2A6/7. Called Leopard 3.

I believe It is a different case. MGCS of Germany & France is a next-generation MBT with a new Rheinmetall cannon and many other new "next-gen" features. I am not sure how many "next-gen" features that Altay MBT brings to the world. The first batch doesn't even have an auto-loader. I guess it is okay to build this gen MBT if you want to build your manufacturing industry and you want to spend money to build new tanks rather than spend that money to upgrade your aging fleets of MBT, but it doesn't fiscally make any sense when you have 350+ serviceable MBTs.

If your budget is limited, you have to prioritize your spending. For Turkey, it seems like it is wise for them to spend that money on UAVs and air-defense system rather than spend billions to manufacture a tank that is exposed to geopolitical risks.

 

[xbat]

I believe Turkey operates only Predator and (Israeli Heron),

Turkey had GNAT and I-GNAT type US drones in the past(90s) they were inefficent and retired very soon after inducted. Turkey purchased 10 Heron from israel, some of them are still active in service. All of them were unarmed type.

Requested armed drones from US but rejected (10 years ago). Never had predator UAVs.

 

[SgtGungHo]

Requested armed drones from US but rejected (10 years ago). Never had predator UAVs.

I know the US rejected. However, I've heard news that Turkey at least jointly operates a MQ-1 Predator. Huh, I guess I learn something everyday.

 

[Bismarck]

I know the US rejected. However, I've heard news that Turkey at least jointly operates a MQ-1 Predator. Huh, I guess I learn something everyday.

Rent an UAV, which is used jointly, without full control is something special. Anyway, it will not be fulfill the requirement of TSK with limited control.

 

[SgtGungHo]

Anyway, it will not be fulfill the requirement of TSK with limited control.

And you know that's not why I want see them to operate American UAVs. Syrian Civil War and Turkey's offence into Syrian territories could have been rare opportunities to see how effectively Russian air-defense system, especially Pantsir, can deter American UAVs. As far as I know, Turkey has not operated Reaper-tier UAV which has already proved its worthiness in anti-terrorist operations, but has not against Russian Army.

 

[Rogue1]

American UAVs were shot down and even brought down by Iran. So Russians would have no problem.

 

[Nutuk]

Turkey requested since 2005 predator and later Reaper UAV's which never where answered by the US.

So Turkey started to develop her own UAV's and later UCAV's. Now we do not need US UAV's anymore.

Akinci UAV is evenmore advanced than Reaper, it will carry AESA radar and have a certain level of Artificial Intelligence (AI). Will be able to engage aircraft with and helicopters with AA missiles.

In UAV technology we are quite self sufficient.

In tanks we have developed our own tank "Altay" tank, that will go into production and is delayed due to corruption in dealing with a company that has close relations with the government. But soon or later the tank will be produced anyway.

 

[Rogue1]

Turkey requested since 2005 predator and later Reaper UAV's which never where answered by the US.

So Turkey started to develop her own UAV's and later UCAV's. Now we do not need US UAV's anymore.

Akinci UAV is evenmore advanced than Reaper, it will carry AESA radar and have a certain level of Artificial Intelligence (AI). Will be able to engage aircraft with and helicopters with AA missiles.

In UAV technology we are quite self sufficient.

In tanks we have developed our own tank "Altay" tank, that will go into production and is delayed due to corruption in dealing with a company that has close relations with the government. But soon or later the tank will be produced anyway.

'Delayed because of corruption', so engine is ready and waiting? It is pathetic to bring politics into everything. Bayraktar UCAVs are also the problem of corruption I suppose since its Erdogan son in laws company. I suppose any firm could have produced them?

 

[GlobalMillitary96]

'Delayed because of corruption', so engine is ready and waiting? It is pathetic to bring politics into everything. Bayraktar UCAVs are also the problem of corruption I suppose since its Erdogan son in laws company. I suppose any firm could have produced them?

Dude, what does Baykar Makina have to do with any of this? The Altay program has been delayed due to nepotism and that's a fact. Otokar was ready and able to produce them years ago until the government decided to hand the contract to BMC who doesn't have the capabilities to produce them. Alternative engines such as the IVECO 1600hp existed and were available for purchase years ago. The production has been delayed at least two years because BMC has zero experience with not only the Altay but tracked vehicles in general.

 

[SgtGungHo]

American UAVs were shot down and even brought down by Iran. So Russians would have no problem.

Many Turkish UAVs were shot down, but I do not question their combat worthiness. I want to see how Russian anti-air systems operated by Russian Army is effective against American UAVs at battlefields.

Akinci UAV is evenmore advanced than Reaper, it will carry AESA radar and have a certain level of Artificial Intelligence (AI). Will be able to engage aircraft with and helicopters with AA missiles.

In UAV technology we are quite self sufficient.

Turkey can't build a turboprop engine for that UAV. Ukrainian engine will be fitted in Akinci UAV. Yes, I know that turboshaft engine is relatively easy to convert to turboprop engine and Turkey is developing TS1400, but the engine development has not finished yet. Even then, Reaper will have more payload than Akinci.

But soon or later the tank will be produced anyway.

That would be great, mate.

 

[Saithan]

Many Turkish UAVs were shot down, but I do not question their combat worthiness. I want to see how Russian anti-air systems operated by Russian Army is effective against American UAVs at battlefields.



Turkey can't build a turboprop engine for that UAV. Ukrainian engine will be fitted in Akinci UAV. Yes, I know that turboshaft engine is relatively easy to convert to turboprop engine and Turkey is developing TS1400, but the engine development has not finished yet. Even then, Reaper will have more payload than Akinci.


That would be great, mate.

We’re progressing on the engine production. It’s going slow because every aspect of the engine built and tested needs to be domestic. And from what I’ve seen TEI has been tasked with investments in order to be able to mass produce the engine.

Altay has faced quite a few roadblocks. But from what I’ve seen Otokar offered to build it for 28 mio € a piece, whilst BMC said they could do it for 14 mio €. That was before the embargo on MTU. Quite a price difference. If you want further infor look back some 3-4 pages