Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[neosinan]

Guys, I thought we clarified the reason why the first Tümosan deal didn't work. The SSM contact was forcing Tümosan to find foreign assistance. After relations with EU go down the Hill, that wasn't possible unless we wanna pay very generously.

I know we have the know how and expertise. Personally, I really don't see why we can't develop this engine, As long as, Budget is allocated to any of these firms that gave bids.

 

[-------]

 

[Adıvar]

Guys, I thought we clarified the reason why the first Tümosan deal didn't work. The SSM contact was forcing Tümosan to find foreign assistance.
.

No, there was no force.
Year 2012

", yurt içi mevcut imkan ve kabiliyetlerden azami derecede faydalanılması ve ihtiyaç duyulması halinde yurt dışından teknik destek alınması suretiyle, öncelikli olarak ALTAY Tankında kullanılması planlanan güç grubunun tüm haklarının Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı'na ait olacak şekilde özgün olarak tasarlanması, geliştirilmesi, prototip üretimi, test ve kalifikasyonu hedeflenmektedir. "

https://www.kap.org.tr/tr/Bildirim/471543

The fact is that TÜMOSAN with its own capabilities was not able to make such an engine like Altay needed.

Year 2015
Unable to make the engine by itself, TÜMOSAN made contract with Austrian firm AVL for technical support. AVL, actually, would design the motor and export to Turkey via main contractor TÜMOSAN.
https://www.kap.org.tr/tr/Bildirim/581243

Because of some conditions imposed by Austrian government, SSM did not approve the contract with AVL.

Year 2017
And, TÜMOSAN withdrew from the project.
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/altay-tanki-sozlesmesi-iptal-oldu--ekonomi-2403933/

However, we all have to accept that TÜMOSAN is good at 3D animations..

 

[FirstClass]

If we have an engine problem and if we don't want to use a bad engine, why not innovate?

President Erdoğan and Elon Musk had a meeting a few weeks ago. Tesla has announced its electric truck. It is really fast, has great range and it can operate even if one of the engines have failed. So...why not get a deal from Tesla for an electric tank! (I know it is a ridiculous idea but think about it!)

It would be first of its kind. It would have a range that would be far more than any tank in existence. If they can develop a proper security system, I think that they can shield it from things like an EMP too. Batteries would weigh a lot yes. However, so does the diesel engine. And it requires a lot of fuel. This thing could go on for hundreds of miles without any supply routes. It wouldn't cost any upkeep during an operation either. It takes a bit to charge, but replaceable batteries can save a lot of time. Of course there must be a new tank design to take all that in but perhaps for a later project, we may have the next or even a later generation tank, right before any of the global powers.

You see how long it takes just to develop a single type of motor engine for a tank. I think it could be a revolution in the tank industry. We need to live in the future, today. Yapalım arkadaşlar bunu . Neden olmasın? Musk koca kamyonu elektrikle 0-100 5.5 saniyede kaldırabiliyorsa, tankı da 10 saniyede kaldırır. Diğer tanklara göre hem de izolasyon avantajı oluşur. Yakıt olmayacağı için egzos kısmına gerek kalmaz. Tank daha sağlam olur.

 

[Tsenal]

If we have an engine problem and if we don't want to use a bad engine, why not innovate?

President Erdoğan and Elon Musk had a meeting a few weeks ago. Tesla has announced its electric truck. It is really fast, has great range and it can operate even if one of the engines have failed. So...why not get a deal from Tesla for an electric tank! (I know it is a ridiculous idea but think about it!)

It would be first of its kind. It would have a range that would be far more than any tank in existence. If they can develop a proper security system, I think that they can shield it from things like an EMP too. Batteries would weigh a lot yes. However, so does the diesel engine. And it requires a lot of fuel. This thing could go on for hundreds of miles without any supply routes. It wouldn't cost any upkeep during an operation either. It takes a bit to charge, but replaceable batteries can save a lot of time. Of course there must be a new tank design to take all that in but perhaps for a later project, we may have the next or even a later generation tank, right before any of the global powers.

You see how long it takes just to develop a single type of motor engine for a tank. I think it could be a revolution in the tank industry. We need to live in the future, today. Yapalım arkadaşlar bunu . Neden olmasın? Musk koca kamyonu elektrikle 0-100 5.5 saniyede kaldırabiliyorsa, tankı da 10 saniyede kaldırır. Diğer tanklara göre hem de izolasyon avantajı oluşur. Yakıt olmayacağı için egzos kısmına gerek kalmaz. Tank daha sağlam olur.

Heavy 65 ton means big batteries which wouldn't fit in the tank.

 

[FirstClass]

Heavy 65 ton means big batteries which wouldn't fit in the tank.

The new Tesla truck seems to be as large or perhaps even smaller than a conventional tank. It has a pretty large cabin too. And Musk says that it can haul something like 80,000 pounds which roughly converts as 36tons. It can do 500 miles (800km) "on the worst scenario" on a single charge. Most modern tanks can do 250-300 miles (400-450km) on a single tank.

Military technology is even more advanced than civilian truck technology anyway. Military vehicles may be equipped with more advanced batteries with higher power density. I think that it is quiet possible to get a 65-ton tank up and running with a bit more advancement in battery technology and cover at least 400-500 kilometers.

Like I said, I'm not saying we should do it right now on the Altay tanks. But we should at least start looking for alternatives for future upgrades of this thing. In a few decades, fossil fuel-powered tanks will become history. Also, in case of any war (god forbid), I think that fuel lines can be severed more easily than any power generation lines. It is easier to set up a field fast-charge station than waiting for that refuel convoy. A tank actually needs almost a thousand litres of fuel for about 10 hours of operation. When you think of it, you need a lot of fuel tankers to reach the base before you can refuel even 4-5 tanks.

Electric motors actually provide a lot more torque in real life situations. Electric motors also don't require almost any maintenance. In case of any major breakdown, they are much easier to replace than conventional engines too.

 

[Mr.Department]

The new Tesla truck seems to be as large or perhaps even smaller than a conventional tank. It has a pretty large cabin too. And Musk says that it can haul something like 80,000 pounds which roughly converts as 36tons. It can do 500 miles (800km) "on the worst scenario" on a single charge. Most modern tanks can do 250-300 miles (400-450km) on a single tank.

Military technology is even more advanced than civilian truck technology anyway. Military vehicles may be equipped with more advanced batteries with higher power density. I think that it is quiet possible to get a 65-ton tank up and running with a bit more advancement in battery technology and cover at least 400-500 kilometers.

Like I said, I'm not saying we should do it right now on the Altay tanks. But we should at least start looking for alternatives for future upgrades of this thing. In a few decades, fossil fuel-powered tanks will become history. Also, in case of any war (god forbid), I think that fuel lines can be severed more easily than any power generation lines. It is easier to set up a field fast-charge station than waiting for that refuel convoy. A tank actually needs almost a thousand litres of fuel for about 10 hours of operation. When you think of it, you need a lot of fuel tankers to reach the base before you can refuel even 4-5 tanks.

Electric motors actually provide a lot more torque in real life situations. Electric motors also don't require almost any maintenance. In case of any major breakdown, they are much easier to replace than conventional engines too.

Fuel-electric hybrid engines for military applications. Rest is far future.

 

[Killuminati]

How can you compare a truck with a tank? A truck drives on the road while a tank has to drive over land under any circumstance. Weight is not the only valid factor in this case.

 

[FirstClass]

How can you compare a truck with a tank? A truck drives on the road while a tank has to drive over land under any circumstance. Weight is not the only valid factor in this case.

Unless it is extreme temperatures like -40 or -50 (which is actually becoming more irrelevant as it is now possible to pre-condition the batteries by heating them up prior to operation), electric motors provide much better efficiency in almost all conditions. They don't require any ventilation or exhaust ports, meaning that they won't underperform in any weather-related conditions. Its range may decrease but so does the range of an internal combustion engine.

A truck's engine is probably a lot more durable and reliable than a tank because it has to perform for millions of kilometers while a tank is carried to its destination most of the times. Hence, a truck is pretty much comparable to a tank in terms of engine. And as the electric motors produce insane amounts of torque, they would rather easily run on tanks. Probably much easier than the ancient internal combustion engine technology. Hybrid engines may be a start of this thing but the future goes through full-electric. The Tesla truck is just a proof that increased range can be achieved with a lot of weight. Tesla has stated that its engine actually underperform on its vehicles and that they actually have a much higher capacity but they don't allow it to offer optimal range and traction performance. Increasing the limits of those motors with more durable parts would ensure that they would be sturdy enough for battle conditions.

And one more thing, an engine makes any vehicle front-heavy while batteries can be distributed all around the vehicle to create a much lower center of gravity, which ensures faster and smoother operation.

Edit: One last thing; the instant torque response of electric motors would actually save a lot of lives in battle.

 

[Mr.Department]

Unless it is extreme temperatures like -40 or -50 (which is actually becoming more irrelevant as it is now possible to pre-condition the batteries by heating them up prior to operation), electric motors provide much better efficiency in almost all conditions. They don't require any ventilation or exhaust ports, meaning that they won't underperform in any weather-related conditions. Its range may decrease but so does the range of an internal combustion engine.

A truck's engine is probably a lot more durable and reliable than a tank because it has to perform for millions of kilometers while a tank is carried to its destination most of the times. Hence, a truck is pretty much comparable to a tank in terms of engine. And as the electric motors produce insane amounts of torque, they would rather easily run on tanks. Probably much easier than the ancient internal combustion engine technology. Hybrid engines may be a start of this thing but the future goes through full-electric. The Tesla truck is just a proof that increased range can be achieved with a lot of weight. Tesla has stated that its engine actually underperform on its vehicles and that they actually have a much higher capacity but they don't allow it to offer optimal range and traction performance. Increasing the limits of those motors with more durable parts would ensure that they would be sturdy enough for battle conditions.

And one more thing, an engine makes any vehicle front-heavy while batteries can be distributed all around the vehicle to create a much lower center of gravity, which ensures faster and smoother operation.

Edit: One last thing; the instant torque response of electric motors would actually save a lot of lives in battle.

Show me please one MBT with electric engine or even hybrid engine, Turkish Leos have problems with hydraulics. Leo NG is electric driven cupolla

 

[FirstClass]

Show me please one MBT with electric engine or even hybrid engine, Turkish Leos have problems with hydraulics. Leo NG is electric driven cupolla

Well if you really need an example, BAE Systems have developed a hybrid tank. Not an MBT but still weighs a lot at around 70 tons. But this is not my point. I'm saying that this will be the future and that we should try to take part of that future and not just watch them develop the technology while we are stuck with our thousands of internal combustion engine-powered tanks. There are a lot of alternative fuel sources and we need to utilize them. We are not exactly an oil-rich country. In case something happens, we would be stuck with thousands of tanks that won't have a sufficient fuel supply line.

 

[Mr.Department]

that this will be the future

Ok. Future tanks.

 

[KapitaanAli]

This is from a DRDO publication.
These are the hybrid electric vehicle programs currently on for the military:

The conclusion arrived at in the paper:

Hybrid electric powerpack technology for military vehicle application offers significant payoffs that cannot be overlooked. The fielding of full hybrid vehicles however depends on the availability of some critical technologies such as silicon carbide power electronics, energy efficient batteries and other high temperature components. While these enabling technologies are being developed and matured, the integrated starter generator is becoming more attractive for applications in combat and tactical vehicles to meet the electric power demand.

 

[Mr.Department]

This is from a DRDO publication.
These are the hybrid electric vehicle programs currently on for the military:
View attachment 448443

The conclusion arrived at in the paper:

Hybrid electric powerpack technology for military vehicle application offers significant payoffs that cannot be overlooked. The fielding of full hybrid vehicles however depends on the availability of some critical technologies such as silicon carbide power electronics, energy efficient batteries and other high temperature components. While these enabling technologies are being developed and matured, the integrated starter generator is becoming more attractive for applications in combat and tactical vehicles to meet the electric power demand.

No MBT mentioned

We are not exactly an oil-rich country.

War is war. Don't mix civil propulsion with military. We should open a new thread " Alternative Propilsion",
than we discuss TESLAs theories.

 

[Killuminati]

Unless it is extreme temperatures like -40 or -50 (which is actually becoming more irrelevant as it is now possible to pre-condition the batteries by heating them up prior to operation), electric motors provide much better efficiency in almost all conditions. They don't require any ventilation or exhaust ports, meaning that they won't underperform in any weather-related conditions. Its range may decrease but so does the range of an internal combustion engine.

A truck's engine is probably a lot more durable and reliable than a tank because it has to perform for millions of kilometers while a tank is carried to its destination most of the times. Hence, a truck is pretty much comparable to a tank in terms of engine. And as the electric motors produce insane amounts of torque, they would rather easily run on tanks. Probably much easier than the ancient internal combustion engine technology. Hybrid engines may be a start of this thing but the future goes through full-electric. The Tesla truck is just a proof that increased range can be achieved with a lot of weight. Tesla has stated that its engine actually underperform on its vehicles and that they actually have a much higher capacity but they don't allow it to offer optimal range and traction performance. Increasing the limits of those motors with more durable parts would ensure that they would be sturdy enough for battle conditions.

And one more thing, an engine makes any vehicle front-heavy while batteries can be distributed all around the vehicle to create a much lower center of gravity, which ensures faster and smoother operation.

Edit: One last thing; the instant torque response of electric motors would actually save a lot of lives in battle.

During a combat situation you can find petrol everywhere but you cant find charging stations. For now its impossible.