Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

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1-) Ecotorq engine have been developed and produced solely by Otosan.

https://www.fordotosan.com.tr/tr/faaliyetlerimiz/ar-ge/teknolojilerimiz/ecotorq-motor-ailesi


Otosan even sold ToT of the engine to some Chinese company.
http://www.invest.gov.tr/en-US/info...s-production-of-locally-developed-engine.aspx

Product belongs solely to Otosan. There is no US involvement or whatsoever.

BMC however is trying to develop a drive-train with Cummins.
There was an image from a presentation of BMC (shared in this forum)

Talk about US involvement....

Didn't they also develop another engine ?

 

[-SINAN-]

Didn't they also develop another engine ?

I dunno bro. Enlighten us.

 

[-SINAN-]

Thanks for the info. I already new about the development of the eco-torq engine (the China deal was new for me though). I was secretly hoping you would list other accomplishments from Otosan, but I'll browse their website further to read up on them.

About BMC co-developing an engine with some US company, why is that a problem? Most projects in Turkey start off that way. We all know BMC is going to start from scratch when it comes to engine's, so them getting external help doesn't surprise me at all. Matter of fact, if they hadn't had any external help I wouldn't have been as hopeful about them being able to develop engine's.
Even company's with century's of experience like BMW, Ferrari etc. call in external company's to help them with development or solving a problem with an engine or whatever else product they are working on (referring to TR company DADE on page 34 in the powerpack thread (recommended read)).

For me getting external help is not important.

Bro look, don't get me wrong. Non of these companies belongs to my father. I don't care which one gets the deal.

However instead of giving Otosan the tank engine development project. They opened a tender and a company that we never heard of before get the tender. They struggled than said AVL doesn't give them ToT and they can't find a subtitute in the world and the project scrapped. Now, there will be a new tender, new development phase etc....

Lots of years have been lost.....if they had given the project to Otosan (the only Turkish company that had actual experience with the engines) it have been already finished.

Same goes with the Altay's serial production.....it appears that serial production will go to BMC...and BMC is carrying their factory to Sakarya.... Not even the factory has been built yet..

Altay supposed to begin serial production in 2015. And by now, first batch of the tanks would be rolled out of the factory....While our soldiers died in shity M60s....not even the tender of serial production finalized.

Same shit happened with Anka, MPT, Milgem, etc..... There is major fvck up going on and nobody even cares.

 

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I dunno bro. Enlighten us.

7.3 L / 9.0 L I6 Diesel – 7.3 L / 9.0 L I6 Diesel – Cargo Van
2.4 L 47 2.4 L 47cyl. Duratorq cyl. Duratorq cyl. Duratorq – Transit
3.2 L 57 3.2 L 57cyl. Duratorq – Transit
MT75 Transmissions – MT75 Transmissions – Transit

Not sure if Otosan had hand in development, but they produce it.

http://www.avto.info/f/docs/Obvestila/foe_factsheet_june2010.pdf

 

[-SINAN-]

7.3 L / 9.0 L I6 Diesel – 7.3 L / 9.0 L I6 Diesel – Cargo Van
2.4 L 47 2.4 L 47cyl. Duratorq cyl. Duratorq cyl. Duratorq – Transit
3.2 L 57 3.2 L 57cyl. Duratorq – Transit
MT75 Transmissions – MT75 Transmissions – Transit

Not sure if Otosan had hand in development, but they produce it.

http://www.avto.info/f/docs/Obvestila/foe_factsheet_june2010.pdf

I remember researching about Duratorq after you informed me about Ecotorq years ago.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turk...-update-discussion.300889/page-4#post-5516150

However Duratorq have been developed by PSA group.
https://www.dieselnet.com/news/2003/02psa.php

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

For me getting external help is not important.

Bro look, don't get me wrong. Non of these companies belongs to my father. I don't care which one gets the deal.

However instead of giving Otosan the tank engine development project. They opened a tender and a company that we never heard of before get the tender. They struggled than said AVL doesn't give them ToT and they can't find a subtitute in the world and the project scrapped. Now, there will be a new tender, new development phase etc....

Lots of years have been lost.....if they had given the project to Otosan (the only Turkish company that had actual experience with the engines) it have been already finished.

Same goes with the Altay's serial production.....it appears that serial production will go to BMC...and BMC is carrying their factory to Sakarya.... Not even the factory has been built yet..

Altay supposed to begin serial production in 2015. And by now, first batch of the tanks would be rolled out of the factory....While our soldiers died in shity M60s....not even the tender of serial production finalized.

Same shit happened with Anka, MPT, Milgem, etc..... There is major fvck up going on and nobody even cares.

Major projects like this and Anka, Milgem etc. usually get delayed, we have seen countless examples of this in US, Chinese and major projects from all over the world (the obvious example of which is the F-35 project for instance). There are almost always unforeseen problems in major projects like this. Let's face it, we'll most likely see delays in the TFX project as well, because that is just what is to be expected. Altay got delayed, but it's not because of the engine as far as I know, the project was supposed to be that the first 250 tanks were supposed to use MTU engine's anyway.

We can speculate that if Otosan had gotten the tender that we wouldn't have faced any delays regarding the tender, but that isn't a guarantee either. The problem with Tumosan was that its Austrian partner backed out, in hindsight it's easy to criticize, but foreseeing this sort of problems beforehand is basically impossible. The tender demanded that the company would get a foreign partner for the projects, and this was a good step by SSM in my opinion. Because the idea behind this is, besides getting an engine for the tank, it's also to expand the domestic industry in engine development (know how) and maybe even create competition in the domestic market (like what happened with armored vehicles for instance). This is plausible to happen if we look at the projects of Tumosan, BMC (and Aselsan electric engine) development and I'm hoping there are other company's that have engine projects going on. And since iirc it was initially planned that the engine's for Altay would be direct procurement in the first stage of production there would have been enough time for the company to develop the engine.

We see this strategy in other projects as well, like Anka for instance: It uses a German engine but TEI is either finished or almost finished with the development of the domestic engine for the Anka. Same goes for it's optics with Aselsan's CATS system.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

1-) Ecotorq engine have been developed and produced solely by Otosan.

https://www.fordotosan.com.tr/tr/faaliyetlerimiz/ar-ge/teknolojilerimiz/ecotorq-motor-ailesi


Otosan even sold ToT of the engine to some Chinese company.
http://www.invest.gov.tr/en-US/info...s-production-of-locally-developed-engine.aspx

Product belongs solely to Otosan. There is no US involvement or whatsoever.

BMC however is trying to develop a drive-train with Cummins.
There was an image from a presentation of BMC (shared in this forum)

Talk about US involvement....

What you've written here is just wrong.

 

[-SINAN-]

What you've written here is just wrong.

Then prove me wrong. I have given sources, didn't I ?

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Shareholders of Ford Otosan. The Americans are co-owner of Otosan. It's a binational company. They've the right to change or stop every single project that's going on in the company. Ecotorq can't be used in any project if the Americans don't approve.

Ford Otosan < BMC

 

[-SINAN-]

Shareholders of Ford Otosan. The Americans are co-owner of Otosan. It's a binational company. They've the right to change or stop every single project that's going on in the company. Ecotorq can't be used in any project if the Americans don't approve.

Ford Otosan < BMC

I think that's reading it too far. Do you seriously believe that Otosan can't do an engine project for the army ?

 

[OguzSenturk]

Ecotorq can't be used in any project if the Americans don't approve.

This is completely wrong actually. Engine's production and licence rights belong to Otosan, not Ford Motor Company. Just because FMC has shares in Otosan, it doesnt mean FMC has licences of the engines which being produced in Otosan.

Same thing could be applied to Koç Group as well. Koç Group does not own engines' licences or production rights just because they have shares in Otosan, but Otosan has.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

I think that's reading it too far. Do you seriously believe that Otosan can't do an engine project for the army ?

Why should I lie?

-> https://www.fordotosan.com.tr/en/investors/corporate-governance/board-of-directors

We must face the unpleasant truth to start changing our situation.

 

[-SINAN-]

Why should I lie?

-> https://www.fordotosan.com.tr/en/investors/corporate-governance/board-of-directors

First of all i didn't said you were lying. I said "you are reading it too far."

We must face the unpleasant truth to start changing our situation.

Secondly, that's still not good enough reason...you are aware that most of our projects are had foreign engines.
ıf you are against Otosan developing a tank engine....what are you going to say about T-129 with it's LHTEC engine ?

 

[KediKesenFare3]

PS
I'm not saying they can't do projects for the military. From a strategic point of view, they're simply not the most reliable source. Ford is a powerful partner. If they cancel the cooperation, Otosan would go bankrupt in a heartbeat. There are many other legal ways to influence the Koç family. For instance, Ford could buy shares from the market if they want to. They have the deeper pockets.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

PS
I'm not saying they can't do projects for the military. From a strategic point of view, they're simply not the most reliable source. Ford is a powerful partner. If they cancel the cooperation, Otosan would go bankrupt in a heartbeat. There are many other legal ways to influence the Koç family. For instance, Ford could buy shares from the market if they want to. They have the deeper pockets.

That's not really how it works. If Ford decides to cancel the cooperation, all they can do is sell the shares they own in Otosan. They can't really do anything that would jeopardize the existence of Otosan as it is an autonomous organisation. The same applies to any shareholder of Otosan. If Ford decides to pull back from Otosan, Otosan will still exist but they might have trouble as they (as far as I know) only manufacture Ford goods. It would have to either start manufacturing for other brands, or manufacture under license, or manufacture original trucks/cars/goods under own brand. Karsan for instance manufactures Hyundai trucks under license but also have original brand trucks, if I remember correctly. So if Ford were to pull out of Otosan it would probably have to become something like what Karsan is today.

Ford could buy shares from the market, but those shares are meant for the open market and I'm sure there is some kind of contract or agreement internally when it comes to either of the major shareholders buying all shares on the open market.