All Afghan and Mughal invaders were Barbarians or Heros !!!

[TMA]

Should name missiles after mithais. Lol jk seriously though Gujranwala has killer mithai

As a Rajput from Lahori/FSD, I am very proud of my Mughal heritage and history. I feel very close to the those Muslim empires of old as they have left their footprints on this region forever. Pakistani Islamic identity was formed and strengthened by these great heroes of Islam.

When I walk in Badahahi masjid or take a stroll in Shalimar Bagh, I feel the greatness of my ancestors and their magnificience.



Because everything else is already named after Allama Iqbal and Quaid e Azam.

Yes but these two are not the only two we have.

Also most Pakistanis are not descended from Mughals. They, more likely, have ancestors from people who were part of the Mughal apparatus just like later on they became part of the British Indian apparatus.
The only difference is that at least most Pakistanis TODAY retroactively see Mughal rule and previous Muslim rulership as being legitimate and British being illegitimate. Not saying that is an incorrect opinion to hold but we need to stop the romanticisation of our Muslim heroes. They did some bad (unislamic) things. Call a spade a spade. It won't make Pakistanis less Muslims or 'weaken' their history.

 

[Crusher]

majority of the sufis spread the islam under the umbrella of those muslim rulers in subcontinent. how many muslim sufis came to subcontinent before muhammad bin qasim's invasion?

Absolutely wrong, sufis of Punjab were spreading islam even during the reign of Ranjeet singh and his descendants in Punjab, actually a sizeable number of Sikhs embraced Islam during 1800s even during the time of Sikh rule.

 

[TMA]

majority of the sufis spread the islam under the umbrella of those muslim rulers in subcontinent. how many muslim sufis came to subcontinent before muhammad bin qasim's invasion?

this still does not change the fact that many Muslim rulers from central asia just came for plunder and loot.
it does not change the fact that many things they did were unislamic. the redeeming factor are those Sufi saints. That is what converted Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of Bharat into Muslims. I would even say that given the fact that Muslim dynasties that ruled over North Bharat for about 800 years or more, Muslims failed in their 'dawah' to the non Muslims. Persia became majority Muslim within 800 years and so did, Central Asia/Afghanistan and Pakistan. So did Indonesia/Malaysia. So did North Africa. But North Bharat did not. This is mainly due to the Muslim dynasties ruled over their non Muslim subjects.
In my opinion the Sufi saints would have probably done a better job at 'dawah' if it were not for the discriminatory nature at times of those Muslim dynasties.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Absolutely wrong, sufis of Punjab were spreading islam even during the reign of Ranjeet singh and his descendants in Punjab, actually a sizeable number of Sikhs embraced Islam during 1800s even during the time of Sikh rule.

How did Ranjit Singh find time after destroying masajid, using them as stables, killing Pukhtoons and Punjabi muslims, to champion the cause of Sufis?

Ranjit Singh’s and Sikh short rule was a dark age for our region, may Allah swt bless the mujahideen like Shah wali Ullah who defeated the Sikhs and sent them back.

this still does not change the fact that many Muslim rulers from central asia just came for plunder and loot.
it does not change the fact that many things they did were unislamic. the redeeming factor are those Sufi saints. That is what converted Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of Bharat into Muslims. I would even say that given the fact that Muslim dynasties that ruled over North Bharat for about 800 years or more, Muslims failed in their 'dawah' to the non Muslims. Persia became majority Muslim within 800 years and so did, Central Asia/Afghanistan and Pakistan. So did Indonesia/Malaysia. So did North Africa. But North Bharat did not. This is mainly due to the Muslim dynasties ruled over their non Muslim subjects.
In my opinion the Sufi saints would have probably done a better job at 'dawah' if it were not for the discriminatory nature at times of those Muslim dynasties.

Many of the founders of those Muslim dynasties came to Pakistan and Hindustan based on divine visions and dreams.

Muhammad bin Qasim, Sultan Babur, Mahmud e Ghazni, Muhammad Ghauri, Alauddin Khulji, Ibrahim Lodi, and numerous others were on the sacred path of Rasoolullah SAWS.

 

[Crusher]

this still does not change the fact that many Muslim rulers from central asia just came for plunder and loot.
it does not change the fact that many things they did were unislamic. the redeeming factor are those Sufi saints. That is what converted Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of Bharat into Muslims. I would even say that given the fact that Muslim dynasties that ruled over North Bharat for about 800 years or more, Muslims failed in their 'dawah' to the non Muslims. Persia became majority Muslim within 800 years and so did, Central Asia/Afghanistan and Pakistan. So did Indonesia/Malaysia. So did North Africa. But North Bharat did not. This is mainly due to the Muslim dynasties ruled over their non Muslim subjects.
In my opinion the Sufi saints would have probably done a better job at 'dawah' if it were not for the discriminatory nature at times of those Muslim dynasties.

It also baffles my mind that why these central asian dynasties always chose to keep their main settlement in non-muslim areas of Delhi and its surrounding, it was purely out of greed because Ganga/Jamna doab was the most densely populated and prosperous area of north gangadesh and all these dynasties were greedy like hell and wanted to be always close to the main revenue areas of Ganga/Jamna doab despite knowing pretty well that the majority of the population in those areas was and still remain non-muslim. If these central asian ayash dynasties were so much bastion of islam and mulsims then they would have always kept their main settlement and capitals well within the modern Pakistani areas which were heavily mulsim dominated areas at that time. But the wealth and money was not so much in these areas of pakistan so they always preferred to keep their main capital in gangu telis areas of delhi and UP to satisfy their lust and greed of accumulating wealth.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

It also baffles my mind that why these central asian dynasties always chose to keep their main settlement in non-muslim areas of Delhi and its surrounding, it was purely out of greed because Ganga/Jamna doab was the most densely populated area of north gangadesh and all these dynasties were greedy like hell and wanted to be always close to the main revenue areas of Ganga/Jamna doab despite knowing pretty well that the majority of the population in those areas was and still remain non-muslim. If these central asian ayash dynasties were so much bastion of islam and mulsims then they would have always kept their main settlement and capitals well within the modern Pakistani areas which are heavily mulsim dominated areas at that time. But the wealth and money are not so much in these areas of pakistan so they always preferred to keep their main capital in gangu telis areas of delhi and UP.

At that time, Central India/Deccan cities were majority Muslim.

British ethnically cleansed that region of Muslims with the burning and destruction of the great cities of the Muslims like Lucknow, Agra, and Dilli.

Hindus were settled in those areas afterwards. New Delhi is named such as Old Dilli was destroyed.

 

[TMA]

How did Ranjit Singh find time after destroying masajid, using them as stables, killing Pukhtoons and Punjabi muslims, to champion the cause of Sufis?

Ranjit Singh’s and Sikh short rule was a dark age for our region, may Allah swt bless the mujahideen like Shaun wali Ullah who defeated the Sikhs and sent them back.



Many of the founders of those Muslim dynasties came to Pakistan and Hindustan based on divine visions and dreams.

Muhammad bin Qasim, Sultan Babur, Mahmud e Ghazni, Muhammad Ghauri, Alauddin Khulji, Ibrahim Lodi, and numerous others were on the sacred path of Rasoolullah SAWS.

Yes they may have had dreams but some of their actions can hardly be described as following in the footsteps of the Seal ﷺ. One is not judged on his dreams but his actions. That is the point.

Call a spade a spade. Condemn the unislamic things they did and praise the good things they did. It will not 'weaken' our history.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Yes they may have had dreams but some of their actions can hardly be described as following in the footsteps of the Seal ﷺ. One is not judged on his dreams but his actions. That is the point.

Call a spade a spade. Condemn the unislamic things they did and praise the good things they did. It will not 'weaken' our history.

No one is perfect brother. Even some Sahaba made mistakes. May Allah swt overlook their faults and grant them success.

 

[TMA]

It also baffles my mind that why these central asian dynasties always chose to keep their main settlement in non-muslim areas of Delhi and its surrounding, it was purely out of greed because Ganga/Jamna doab was the most densely populated and prosperous area of north gangadesh and all these dynasties were greedy like hell and wanted to be always close to the main revenue areas of Ganga/Jamna doab despite knowing pretty well that the majority of the population in those areas was and still remain non-muslim. If these central asian ayash dynasties were so much bastion of islam and mulsims then they would have always kept their main settlement and capitals well within the modern Pakistani areas which were heavily mulsim dominated areas at that time. But the wealth and money was not so much in these areas of pakistan so they always preferred to keep their main capital in gangu telis areas of delhi and UP to satisfy their lust and greed of accumulating wealth.

We need historical revisionism. This does not mean I consider Muslim rule as illegitimate like I consider British rule. But we should still be able to condemn the bad that Muslim rulers did.
You are right most of them were hardly Islamic at least on the political level. This disease actually started much earlier than Central Asian invaders into South Asia.

 

[Crusher]

We need historical revisionism. This does not mean I consider Muslim rule as illegitimate like I consider British rule. But we should still be able to condemn the bad that Muslim rulers did.
You are right most of them were hardly Islamic at least on the political level. This disease actually started much earlier than Central Asian invaders into South Asia.

Actually what always intrigues me is that after 800 years rule of these central asian dynasties in Ganga/jamna doab area, the end result was that before 1947 the 80% of the population of that area was non-muslim, I think this tells us alot about the priorities of these so-called 800 years ruling muslim dynasties, spreading Islam in Ganga/Jamna doab under their so-called umbrella was surely never ever a priority for these dynasties.

 

[TMA]

Actually what always intrigues me is that after 800 years rule of these central asian dynasties in Ganga/jamna doab area, the end result was that before 1947 the 80% of the population of that area was non-muslim, I think this tells us alot about the priorities of these so-called 800 years ruling muslim dynasties, spreading Islam in Ganga/Jamna doab under their so-called umbrella was surely never ever a priority for these dynasties.

Not so simple as after British oppression, many Muslims were 'cleansed' out from their regions. We need to look at the populations pre 1857 or before for a more accurate idea. Still it would be non Muslim majority but not as extreme at the partition of the illegitimate colonial construct known as British India in 1947.

 

[Hamza913]

Babar , Timur lung , Changhez Khan were barberians cant be heros of Pakistan or muslim world.

I think our Hazaras would strongly disagree with you.

Gujranwala doesn't have any killer mithai etc., Your thinking is that of an immigrant suffering from identity crisis and taking refuge in the romanticism of so-called muslim empires and what not. I studied all this rubbish in my school and as far as I remember we just use to study that history subject to pass the exams only, I never saw anyone ever showing cuckoldry to have any kind of romanticism about these mughal shughal type of rubbish that was taught to us in school mutalia pakistan books, no one used to take these things seriously but I have noticed that some children of expat pakistan immigrants in other countries have some kind of strange romanticism about these rubbish historical empires of few families from outside of pakistan. I remember our teacher used to laugh during these classes and used to tell us that it is shameful that we don't have our own indigenous muslim punjabi heroes in the past and the government wants to make some kings ruling in delhi and uttar pradesh as our "heroes", I mean it used to be a funny discussion some times.

Someone's upset lol.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Gujranwala doesn't have any killer mithai etc.

I stand by what I said. They have excellent mithai. I always get my family friends to bring me some when I am in Pakistan.

Your thinking is that of an immigrant suffering from identity crisis and taking refuge in the romanticism of so-called muslim empires and what not. I studied all this rubbish in my school and as far as I remember we just use to study that history subject to pass the exams only, I never saw anyone ever showing cuckoldry to have any kind of romanticism about these mughal shughal type of rubbish that was taught to us in school mutalia pakistan books, no one used to take these things seriously but I have noticed that some children of expat pakistan immigrants in other countries have some kind of strange romanticism about these rubbish historical empires of few families from outside of pakistan. I remember our teacher used to laugh during these classes and used to tell us that it is shameful that we don't have our own indigenous muslim punjabi heroes in the past and the government wants to make some kings ruling in delhi and uttar pradesh as our "heroes", I mean it used to be a funny discussion some times.

I hope you find the heroes you seek.

Let me give you one example, Salahuddin Ayyubi who was Kurdish is still owned by all arabs as a hero of their people.

Egyptian flag carries his insignia “the eagle of Salahuddin.” Damascus Syria has a well crafted and famous statue of him on horseback. However, he was a Kurdish general with a mostly Turkish army, just like his uncle Nuruddin Zengi.

So great was he that Egypt shifted its religion from Ismaili Shiaism to Sunni Islam because of the love of him.

In the same way, there is no problem if Muhammad bin Qasim of Taif or Mahmud e Ghazni of Afghanistan are our heroes.

Did you forget that Gujarati Muhammad Ali Jinnah of Ismaili background from Bombay founded our country?

Pakistan may have borders, but Islam does not. According to Islam, every Muslim who does service for Islam even from the interiors of Africa to the steppes of Mongolia is equal.

 

[Mentee]

If there hadnt been the mughals and afghans we would be green turbaned barelivs and mirasis bowing before Modi living in slums all over Bharat Varsh.

Hi,

Your assessment is incorrect!


It was because of Sufi/saints that we have a large amount of Muslims roaming around in the subcontinent. These abdali kjilji Mughal or whatever the crap - - - - - - - - were alien to this region. The came, they looted, they went back - - - - - - - -.



History tells us that many a Muslim kings would bar ullema from dawah in many parts of the subcontinent as it could significantly reduce the jizya tax for them to have late night parties with girls as young as 15 abducted from the peasant households if not provided by a dallah drabari - - - - - - -



do you have any idea when drabari mullahs were in cohorts with the Mughal emperor akbar, who challenged his Deen Ilahi and on what grounds ? Sufi Madho Lal Hussein ! the reason breilvis and Shias are well versed with the rules of states craft and never waged an armed resistance against an Islamic state unlike Taliban ttp sipah sahaba Daesh isis MB - - - - - - is due to the grooming of these very Saints. Imagine the 75% of Pakistan go in a Taliban like mode - - - - - - - -



And no I don't give a chvanni about these psychopath criminals. Doesn't matter if the criminal is a Pakhtoon, Punjabi or whatever, he's a criminal.



Now let's address your wanna be tough boy rants about the majority sect of Pakistan. Who was Iqbal? Quaid? Chaudhry rehmat Ali?



Deobandi school of though has always stood on the wrong side of the history from commie ulema hind to actively making pacts with Indian national congress against Muslim league to creating terror groups targeting state of Pakistan and its citizenz - - - - - - - -




There jealousy derives for the fact that they are inept to produce a single man of the stature of Baba Farid in their ranks - - - - - - - so cling on to ridiculing those who look up to these saints including Christians Sikhs and Hindus who regularly pay visit to Sufi shrines annually.



Aren't you from the same lot who were clueless just a decade ago whether television is halal or not besides many other fundamental things, found the answers?



Now if you think that you can bully the 75% into submission using your interpretation of sharia , think again! The likes of Molana Tariq Jamil were given state tv coverage to tame your sectarian nuts not that sunnis are done with their beliefs.

 

[tkmd]

Hi,

Your assessment is incorrect!


It was because of Sufi/saints that we have a large amount of Muslims roaming around in the subcontinent. These abdali kjilji Mughal or whatever the crap - - - - - - - - were alien to this region. The came, they looted, they went back - - - - - - - -.



History tells us that many a Muslim kings would bar ullema from dawah in many parts of the subcontinent as it could significantly reduce the jizya tax for them to have late night parties with girls as young as 15 abducted from the peasant households if not provided by a dallah drabari - - - - - - -



do you have any idea when drabari mullahs were in cohorts with the Mughal emperor akbar, who challenged his Deen Ilahi and on what grounds ? Sufi Madho Lal Hussein ! the reason breilvis and Shias are well versed with the rules of states craft and never waged an armed resistance against an Islamic state unlike Taliban ttp sipah sahaba Daesh isis MB - - - - - - is due to the grooming of these very Saints. Imagine the 75% of Pakistan go in a Taliban like mode - - - - - - - -



And no I don't give a chvanni about these psychopath criminals. Doesn't matter if the criminal is a Pakhtoon, Punjabi or whatever, he's a criminal.



Now let's address your wanna be tough boy rants about the majority sect of Pakistan. Who was Iqbal? Quaid? Chaudhry rehmat Ali?



Deobandi school of though has always stood on the wrong side of the history from commie ulema hind to actively making pacts with Indian national congress against Muslim league to creating terror groups targeting state of Pakistan and its citizenz - - - - - - - -




There jealousy derives for the fact that they are inept to produce a single man of the stature of Baba Farid in their ranks - - - - - - - so cling on to ridiculing those who look up to these saints including Christians Sikhs and Hindus who regularly pay visit to Sufi shrines annually.



Aren't you from the same lot who were clueless just a decade ago whether television is halal or not besides many other fundamental things, found the answers?



Now if you think that you can bully the 75% into submission using your interpretation of sharia , think again! The likes of Molana Tariq Jamil were given state tv coverage to tame your sectarian nuts not that sunnis are done with their beliefs.

? Lol although I didn't say anything about deobandis I will say this ... Look at your comment and then really think for a minute whose angry / crazy. Not sure where Tariq Jamil comes in and more unsure wth your talking about him coming on TV.

As to your idiotic Akbar accusation...who was Aurangzeb?? What was Aurangzeb's lineage? Furthermore just like there were bad khulafa and good khulafa there were bad emperor's and good emperor's. That doesn't mean you reject the very idea of the khilafa or Mughal dawla.

If as you say the vast majority of Pakistan are barelvi and, I guess, share your thoughts then I'm not sure why you're talking to me you should be asking your fellow sectarians why they love to post pics on Facebook of the abdali, ghaznavi and babur missiles .

Bottom line .. stop making this a sectarian argument. This thread should be closed imo bc crazy people like you start screaming and making up ridiculous arguments as well as going on off the wall tangents.

Absolutely wrong, sufis of Punjab were spreading islam even during the reign of Ranjeet singh and his descendants in Punjab, actually a sizeable number of Sikhs embraced Islam during 1800s even during the time of Sikh rule.

Yeah and meanwhile Sikhs used masajid as horse stables, raped our women and harassed Muslims in general. But don't worry lots of conversions to replace the ones who got hacked into pieces !

I stand by what I said. They have excellent mithai. I always get my family friends to bring me some when I am in Pakistan.


Let me give you one example, Salahuddin Ayyubi who was Kurdish is still owned by all arabs as a hero of their people.

Egyptian flag carries his insignia “the eagle of Salahuddin.” Damascus Syria has a well crafted and famous statue of him on horseback. However, he was a Kurdish general with a mostly Turkish army, just like his uncle Nuruddin Zengi.

So great was he that Egypt shifted its religion from Ismaili Shiaism to Sunni Islam because of the love of him.

In the same way, there is no problem if Muhammad bin Qasim of Taif or Mahmud e Ghazni of Afghanistan are our heroes.

Did you forget that Gujarati Muhammad Ali Jinnah of Ismaili background from Bombay founded our country?

Pakistan may have borders, but Islam does not. According to Islam, every Muslim who does service for Islam even from the interiors of Africa to the steppes of Mongolia is equal.

I actually think the original poster is a secret mallu Indian .this line if disgraceful thinking is making the rounds on republic tv rt now .The idea that Pakistanis are lost or stupid bc they idolize a Muslim superpower state and seek to link themselves to it. They r seeking to separate us from our great cultural, religious and social heritage. If they achieve that then they'll say oh ur mallus just like us come, dance with us at Holi and enjoy Ganesh Chaturti as well. We're all the same people from the same culture and those evil Mughals ruined u guys for a while.

Turks are rediscovering their ottoman heritage and realizing what a great Islamic power they used to be. U don't see Turks asking oh this sultan was horrible we need to reject the ottoman khilafa and go back to being byzantines!

So either original poster is mallu or a crackpot Pakistani heritage guy like Tarek Fatah. Might be Fatah himself lol.