about Muslim Brahmins of Pakistan and Kashmir

[Butchcassidy]

Nearly six million Muslims were expelled from East Punjab by Hindus and Sikhs. As per (higher) estimates, 1.2 million Muslims left India but didn't reach Pakistan, most of them were from Eastern Punjab (an estimated 0.5-0.8 million). Only 2.5 % of those who made it alive to Pakistan, settled outside Pakistani Punjab. As per 1951 census, i.e. four years later, the total number of "Mohajirs" in Pakistani Punjab was 5.28 million. Do the maths and you will get your answers.

As for the immigrants from the five/six south-eastern districts of Punjab (that today constitute Haryana) not all of them spoke Haryanvi. The areas bordering (now) Punjab had a high percentage of Punjabi speaking Muslims. I personally know a lot of people whose ancestors migrated from Haryana districts, they are as Punjabi as it gets. People like Rana Iqbal Khan of Phool Nagar and Hafiz Saeed of Sargodha have Haryanvi origins, but no one ever considers them "Mohajir" or "Haryanvi" ... Rangari, arguably a dialect of Haryanvi, however, is still spoken by a significant number of Rajput settlers, but they too have fully assimilated into Punjabi culture. Moreover, a large number of Meo Muslims from Mewat region of Haryana chose to stay back in India (on assurance of Gandhi) and today are in majority (up to 80%) in a few districts of Haryana.

A lot of muslim chauhans living in sirsa (now haryana) were punjabis. Similarly muslims living in ambala and karnal were also Punjabi. However those from Rohtak and souther haryana (bahadurgarh and pataudi) were ranghars and meos.

 

[Kabira]

Nearly six million Muslims were expelled from East Punjab by Hindus and Sikhs. As per (higher) estimates, 1.2 million Muslims left India but didn't reach Pakistan, most of them were from Eastern Punjab (an estimated 0.5-0.8 million). Only 2.5 % of those who made it alive to Pakistan, settled outside Pakistani Punjab. As per 1951 census, i.e. four years later, the total number of "Mohajirs" in Pakistani Punjab was 5.28 million. Do the maths and you will get your answers.

As for the immigrants from the five/six south-eastern districts of Punjab (that today constitute Haryana) not all of them spoke Haryanvi. The areas bordering (now) Punjab had a high percentage of Punjabi speaking Muslims. I personally know a lot of people whose ancestors migrated from Haryana districts, they are as Punjabi as it gets. People like Rana Iqbal Khan of Phool Nagar and Hafiz Saeed of Sargodha have Haryanvi origins, but no one ever considers them "Mohajir" or "Haryanvi" ... Rangari, arguably a dialect of Haryanvi, however, is still spoken by a significant number of Rajput settlers, but they too have fully assimilated into Punjabi culture. Moreover, a large number of Meo Muslims from Mewat region of Haryana chose to stay back in India (on assurance of Gandhi) and today are in majority (up to 80%) in a few districts of Haryana.

When I say Haryanvi I meant people who speak Rangari language and not punjabi speakers from border areas which ended up in today Haryana. In 98 census 4.5% of population in punjab was urdu speaking, they could be ranghars and urdu speakers.

 

[M. Sarmad]

It was basically a land swap. But in this swap the sikhs saw their land increase and the muslims had their decreased.

That, my friend, is not true. Although Muslims (53%) were a majority in united Punjab, Sikhs (14.6%) and Hindus (30%), besides owning most of the agricultural land, together owned roughly 75-80 % of commerce, manufacturing and even real estate in major urban centers, but they ended up getting East Punjab only i.e. 38% of the Total Land area of Punjab. Indian Government claimed that Hindus and Sikhs left behind almost 8 million acres of agriculture land in Pakistani Punjab, Pakistani government estimated it to be around six million acres. Muslim immigrants claimed to have abandoned around 4.5 million acres of agricultural land behind.

 

[M. Sarmad]

In 98 census 4.5% of population in punjab was urdu speaking, they could be ranghars and urdu speakers.

Many people, although Punjabi ethnically, do not speak Punjabi as their first language. Also, those stats are from 1998 (i.e. 41 years after partition), so, until and unless data on 'internal migration' that took place during that time period, (and on those ethnic Punjabis who speak Urdu as their first language) is available, I don't think those stats can be used to analyze ethnic makeup of post-partition West Pakistan.

 

[Kabira]

Dude what are you talking about. It was all about land reallocation in Punjab. The Sikhs left their land in Pakistani Punjab and got land in Indian Punjab. The muslims left their land in Indian punjab and were reallocated land in Pakistani punjab. When sikhs and muslims switched sides they found whole villages deserted with no one to claim the fields in their new home. Those abandoned villages and fields were allocated to the new comers by the governments. No one calls anyone who owns more than 5 acres a refugee in any sense of the word. And no muslim punjabi migrant got any lesser land in Pakistani punjab.
It was basically a land swap. But in this swap the sikhs saw their land increase and the muslims had their decreased.

British settled large numbers of people in few decades from "central punjab" which back then meant current day east punjab/Indian punjab in west punjab canal colonies. In districts like Jhang, Sahiwal, Faisalabad etc South west of Lahore. Usually arains/muslims and sikhs from east punjab who were likely better agriculturists because east punjab was more fertile land even without canals while people in west punjab canal colonies regions were mostly pastoral cattle herders. Anyway what ever happened under British was reversed in 47 to extent. Before canal colonies these regions were not as populated as it's now the case.

Many people, although Punjabi ethnically, do not speak Punjabi as their first language. Also, those stats are from 1998 (i.e. 41 years after partition), so, until and unless data on 'internal migration' that took place during that time period, (and on those ethnic Punjabis who speak Urdu as their first language) is available, I don't think those stats can be used to analyze ethnic makeup of post-partition West Pakistan.

Many urdu speakers migrated to punjab, there is even muhajir colony in Lahore. Many actors from Lahore identify as urdu speakers but speak punjabi like any other. Saud and Faisal Qureshi comes to mind. They are not visible politically because of their relatively low numbers.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Many urdu speakers migrated to punjab, there is even muhajir colony in Lahore. Many actors from Lahore identify as urdu speakers but speak punjabi like any other. Saud and Faisal Qureshi comes to mind. They are not visible politically because of their relatively low numbers.

Not many, a few, very few ... As for showbiz/actors, Lahore had been the center of Pakistani cinema, producing films in both Punjabi and Urdu languages since 1920s. It was the only film production center in the newly founded Pakistan. So, people related to film industry did migrate to Lahore, from India, and also from other parts of Pakistan ... Internal Migration I was talking about.

 

[Ocean]

And if someones ancestors were converts from both sikh faith and kashmir brahmins? Would that make them any less of a Pakistani?

 

[dreamer4eva]

Panjabi immigrants had to show "claims" and got half of that in Pak.. most didn't ..

Locals benefited from it..

Dr Pervaiz Ilahis father became rich by buying claims from immigrants.

Similar thing happened to my grandmother's father. He owned agricultural land in Pakistan and when he moved to eastern Punjab in 1947 was not able get the same amount of land.

 

[Deidara]

That, my friend, is not true. Although Muslims (53%) were a majority in united Punjab, Sikhs (14.6%) and Hindus (30%), besides owning most of the agricultural land, together owned roughly 75-80 % of commerce, manufacturing and even real estate in major urban centers, but they ended up getting East Punjab only i.e. 38% of the Total Land area of Punjab. Indian Government claimed that Hindus and Sikhs left behind almost 8 million acres of agriculture land in Pakistani Punjab, Pakistani government estimated it to be around six million acres. Muslim immigrants claimed to have abandoned around 4.5 million acres of agricultural land behind.

I can give correct general facts for free but for providing accurate details I charge money.
You are obviously a better person. Furnishing a half-troll half- casual forum with minute details for fee.

 

[Nexus]

I think I am qualified to answer.

1. From the 14th to the 18th century. Mostly.
2. Outside Kashmir not very well. But they get good respect in general Pak/Muslim society.
3. Apart from some jokes, they feel pride. For having left 'jahalat'.
4. Not usually. Mostly among Kashmiri Muslims.
5. They run away from it.
6. They consider us as too proud, cunning and shrewd. None are true, except for maybe the pride part.

Mahadev har bro. i think you were banned when this thread was Active. i still have some question for you brother.

why you guys live ? do you share samajs ? like we have Brahmin Samaj, rajput samaj, maldhari samaj.

just few days ago a petriot Muslim Ksahmiri got killed by crowed for mistaking him as a Hindu as he had pandit surname. how many of these brahmins are loyal to India ? do they still take part in social works ?

are there any kashmiri muslims with brahmin ancestry wants to become part of Dharmic fold again ? how KP community see these "Brahmins" ?

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

1) why these brahmins converts to Islam ? And when ?

Brahmins have been converting to Islam since the introduction of Islam to South Asia. Many of them had also converted to Buddhism before the introduction of Islam.

They were very educated. Taxila for example, which had been the intellectual powerhouse of South Asia was filled with Brahmins. Unlike the peasantry which was converted by Sufis, Brahmins were mostly converted by high-class Muslims such as scholars and merchants. They brought forward logical challenges against Hinduism which the Brahmins could not refute.

3) how muslims view these muslims who have "pundit" surname specifically?

I haven't really met many people with that surname, but most Pakistanis wouldn't really care.

4) do they intermarry with other muslims ? Do they have their own biradaris?

Yes and somewhat yes. Many Brahmins integrated into other biradaris. But most of them adopted the surname "Sheikh", which is meant to highlight their status.

5) how Muslims brahmins view their heritage? And sanskrit.

Most of them don't care about it.

6) how Pashtuns,Baloch view these brahmins? And Rajputs?

As fellow Muslims and Pakistanis.

 

[Kaushika]

I guess i was wrong, most of Sheikhs are kashmiris. Do you have any native punjabi or sindhi brahmin muslims ?

What about Junejas ? Do you have muslim junejas ?

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

I guess i was wrong, most of Sheikhs are kashmiris. Do you have any native punjabi or sindhi brahmin muslims ?

What about Junejas ? Do you have muslim junejas ?

No, most Shiekh in Pakistan are Punjabi/Sindhi. There are 10 million in Punjab alone.