A picture of Indian Secularism - Happy Janmashtami

[HariPrasad]

I do not understand the insecurity of hindu Indians who want to label all in some or another way Hindu.

you are arguing to save Islamic culture and says us Insecure. Isn't it strange?

 

[haviZsultan]

This is the problem with Pakistanis. For you, Religion shapes everything.... culture, traditions and the NATION itself...

No wonder when that picture of an Arab in a Hindu temple was posted few days back, all of you went berserk.

Look at Turkey. I have been to Istanbul and trust me, it is more secular than many places even in India. Now don't call them non-muslims

Hindu word itself means people from this land. Indian muslims have many traditions and cultures same as Hindus. Because end of the day, you all were converted from Hinduism/ Buddhism to Islam. Its not that for 3000 y3eras before Mohammed, guys like you were aliens. Hinduism/ Jainism/ Buddhism are integral part of this land.

Arabs have no problem with Hindu temples, Indonesia have many monuments / even paper currency having Hindu gods, why is it that always you Pakistanis have problem with secularism?

BTW, A child wearing a hindu outfit is a non-muslim according to you, still he is 10000 times better than true muslims who blow up mosques and kill fellow Muslims in Iraq/ Pakistan/ Saudi Arabia or Syria.

Some Pakistanis clearly do not believe in secularism which is a flaw in their thinking. But it was bound to happen since we have had mullahs impose their thoughts on us. However India does not have the opportunity or excuse to deflect blame. A secular country does not aim for "äll people becoming hindu or hinduised" it aims at equality and freedom for all. The approach however has been all to become hindu as is proven by same laws being applied to jains sikhs and budhists as to hindus. They need their own laws.

What I am saying is that your approach is wrong and India is not truly secular. As for my post I was trying to portray how some muslims would view this and that there is another negative view of this muslims dressing up as Hindus. Though debate should always remain a staple in our religion some scholars claim it is not acceptable for a muslim to dress as a hindu. The point is the Muslim should not have to prove his "patriotism" or "love for hindus" by giving up his culture or practicing hindu customs.

Also I didn't call the child non muslim. Allah judges who is a muslim or not. I or you do not.

you are arguing to save Islamic culture and says us Insecure. Isn't it strange?

Islamic culture is not so weak that if a Muslim dresses as a Hindu it will fall. I pointed out the other point of view to this. The way I described it, "a muslim dressing as a hindu means giving up Islamic culture" is how most Pakistanis will see this. They should not, we may argue. But this is the thinking. It may take time to change.

The ideal should be to promote equality for all. Yet in the minds of Indias hindus there is a belief that everyone should gradually become a hindu or adopt hindu practices. As I said there are other ways to show respect for Hindus than this. Muslims even in Indian occupied parts will see this as an attack and the gradual elimination of their culture. Islamic culture.

 

[Bang Galore]

Some Pakistanis clearly do not believe in secularism which is a flaw in their thinking. But it was bound to happen since we have had mullahs impose their thoughts on us. However India does not have the opportunity or excuse to deflect blame. A secular country does not aim for "äll people becoming hindu or hinduised" it aims at equality and freedom for all. The approach however has been all to become hindu as is proven by same laws being applied to jains sikhs and budhists as to hindus. They need their own laws.

What I am saying is that your approach is wrong and India is not truly secular. As for my post I was trying to portray how some muslims would view this and that there is another negative view of this muslims dressing up as Hindus. Though debate should always remain a staple in our religion some scholars claim it is not acceptable for a muslim to dress as a hindu. The point is the Muslim should not have to prove his "patriotism" or "love for hindus" by giving up his culture or practicing hindu customs.

Also I didn't call the child non muslim. Allah judges who is a muslim or not. I or you do not.

Secularism is a state concept, nothing to do with individuals. The State is secular (or not), individuals can almost never be. Individuals can believe in secularism but can only be tolerant which is different from being secular .

 

[haviZsultan]

Secularism is a state concept, nothing to do with individuals. The State is secular (or not), individuals can almost never be. Individuals can believe in secularism but can only be tolerant which is different from being secular .

I disagree. Secularism and tolerance are intertwined in a way that a secular person would always be tolerant. The people who aren't secular are the ones who talk about (nonexistant?) Islamic barbarism over India, suckularism and other such names. I am a staunch secularist living for some time in Lucknow with both my parents born there. I recognize the problems with India and its failed secularism immediately. It might be something you hear constantly but electing a man like Modi who has the blood of innocent muslims on his hands. Even if a person is blamed and is not truly responsible for killing muslims he should not become a countries prime minister. There is a serious flaw in India which has failed to be a truly secular state.

 

[Tridibans]

Some Pakistanis clearly do not believe in secularism which is a flaw in their thinking. But it was bound to happen since we have had mullahs impose their thoughts on us. However India does not have the opportunity or excuse to deflect blame. A secular country does not aim for "äll people becoming hindu or hinduised" it aims at equality and freedom for all. The approach however has been all to become hindu as is proven by same laws being applied to jains sikhs and budhists as to hindus. They need their own laws.

What I am saying is that your approach is wrong and India is not truly secular. As for my post I was trying to portray how some muslims would view this and that there is another negative view of this muslims dressing up as Hindus. Though debate should always remain a staple in our religion some scholars claim it is not acceptable for a muslim to dress as a hindu. The point is the Muslim should not have to prove his "patriotism" or "love for hindus" by giving up his culture or practicing hindu customs.

Also I didn't call the child non muslim. Allah judges who is a muslim or not. I or you do not.


Islamic culture is not so weak that if a Muslim dresses as a Hindu it will fall. I pointed out the other point of view to this. The way I described it, "a muslim dressing as a hindu means giving up Islamic culture" is how most Pakistanis will see this. They should not, we may argue. But this is the thinking. It may take time to change.

The ideal should be to promote equality for all. Yet in the minds of Indias hindus there is a belief that everyone should gradually become a hindu or adopt hindu practices. As I said there are other ways to show respect for Hindus than this. Muslims even in Indian occupied parts will see this as an attack and the gradual elimination of their culture. Islamic culture.

You have gone tangentially it seems....

My points are based on two of your assumptions...

1) You said Indian Muslims have to prove their Indianness by doing Hindu rituals. So why do Indonesians have to have Hindu gods and Hindu names? Their national carrier is called Garuda Airlines (google its relevance...)?
Why does Turks give equal oppostunites to Christians and Jews? What are they afraid of?

Infact, instead of Indian Muslims, its the Pakistanis who have to say this everytime to justify the creation of your nation. Remember, India have more Muslims than Pakistan. Even with all the crap posted on PDF, ever since Modi became PM, ZEEEEROOOO Muslims died in riots...

2) Everytime you go on about Hindu practices. Look at your own Pakistan.... Why Punjabis have mehendis and Bollywood style dance/ songs in marriages in Pakistna? Why was even Urdu inc=vented? You could have easily used Arabic. Isn't Urdu itself came out of the Hindu roots of India? All the urdu words are UNIQUE to this land (along with those borrowed from Persian and Arabic)... so that proves your Hindu connection.

Why should Muslims from Maharashtra and Assam not follow their ancestral customs and foreign arabic traditions? I know its hard for you people to fathom as for you guys everything is Islam.

I am afraid, India is much more than religion or casts or traditions. It is unique. This uniqueness is our Secularism.

 

[darksider]

There are clearly 2 ways to look at this.

One way is the way Indians are looking at it, the way that interprets this as secularism and pluralism and an egalitarian society, that a muslim out of respect for the hindus muslims dress as hindus and this is an example of the love between the two.

But there is another argument, the Islamic argument. There are arguments that Islamically it is not allowed to dress up overtly as non muslim Gods and Goddesses and it is disallowed promoting their culture and lifestyle. Many muslims will view this negatively.

Which way a normal person looks at this picture is based on the persons upbringing, religion and thinking. Indians need to focus on not swallowing other religions (ie same laws for Sikhs, Jains and Budhism and treatment of them as a branch of Hinduism) so that muslims dress up as hindus but to try and let Islam and muslims thrive equally with their own culture and traditions. This shows a weak policy, insecurity and pettiness and some muslims will definitely not agree with this kind of thing. Muslims shouldn't have to give up their culture. This may represent religious harmony for many but the image also portrays the gradual elimination of Islamic customs and thought process in Indian occupied regions.

exactly my point.
why a Muslim need worship raam or celebrate his birthday to be true indian?
if this the real way of showing love for hindus.then i want to see a hindu sacrifice a cow on this eid in mumbai to show harmony and the love they both have in india and for sake secularism as some indians claiming.

one other thing i dont know about hinduism but i think in islam religion always affect culture.culture not effect religion.

 

[Mike_Brando]

what happy Janmashtami? Girls don't appreciate it when I play Raas Leela with them these days. They threaten with police action.

Ranjit bhai,sudhaar jao,abhi bhi waqt hain warna aaj kal ki ladkiya tumhe hi sudhar kar rakh dengi.Anyways,a very happy and prosperous Janmasthami to you and your entire family!!Bolo Bansi vale Vrindavan Bihari Jee ki Jay!!

 

[ranjeet]

Ranjit bhai,sudhaar jao,abhi bhi waqt hain warna aaj kal ki ladkiya tumhe hi sudhar kar rakh dengi.Anyways,a very happy and prosperous Janmasthami to you and your entire family!!Bolo Bansi vale Vrindavan Bihari Jee ki Jay!!

Jai Shree Krishna .. and happy janmasthami to you and your family too bro.

 

[Bang Galore]

I disagree. Secularism and tolerance are intertwined in a way that a secular person would always be tolerant. The people who aren't secular are the ones who talk about (nonexistant?) Islamic barbarism over India, suckularism and other such names. I am a staunch secularist living for some time in Lucknow with both my parents born there. I recognize the problems with India and its failed secularism immediately. It might be something you hear constantly but electing a man like Modi who has the blood of innocent muslims on his hands. Even if a person is blamed and is not truly responsible for killing muslims he should not become a countries prime minister. There is a serious flaw in India which has failed to be a truly secular state.

Common misconception of the word. How are you secular?

There are two definitions/methods of secularism available.

The European way of Church & the state being separate & the Indian way of treating all religions equally.

How do you fit in? You are obviously not the church or the state, so the first definition is a no-no.

As for the second, can you be equally disposed to all religions & their contradictory teachings as well as to atheism?

You are mistaking tolerance for secularism. A common but silly mistake.

As for your comment of non-existent Islamic barbarism, that's pretty much a non starter. No one will buy that. No one.

Your comments on Modi underscores your lack of understanding of secularism and the nation state. Rule of law applies, i.e. a person has to be convicted of an offense to be declared non-eligible to a post. The people can of course choose to not elect him, in this case they did elect him. However as PM of India, he is both guided by & limited by the constitution of India & the rules of the state that derives from it. Whether he likes it or not, he has little choice but to ensure secularism as the basic underpinning of how he approaches his fellow citizens. All his decisions are challenge able in the courts of law if they fail this test.

 

[Mike_Brando]

Jai Shree Krishna .. and happy janmasthami to you and your family too bro.

Thanks a lot bro.

 

[HariPrasad]

Islamic culture is not so weak that if a Muslim dresses as a Hindu it will fall.

than why do you cry?

 

[haviZsultan]

Common misconception of the word. How are you secular?

There are two definitions/methods of secularism available.

The European way of Church & the state being separate & the Indian way of treating all religions equally.

How do you fit in? You are obviously not the church or the state, so the first definition is a no-no.

As for the second, can you be equally disposed to all religions & their contradictory teachings as well as to atheism?

You are mistaking tolerance for secularism. A common but silly mistake.

As for your comment of non-existent Islamic barbarism, that's pretty much a non starter. No one will buy that. No one.

Your comments on Modi underscores your lack of understanding of secularism and the nation state. Rule of law applies, i.e. a person has to be convicted of an offense to be declared non-eligible to a post. The people can of course choose to not elect him, in this case they did elect him. However as PM of India, he is both guided by & limited by the constitution of India & the rules of the state that derives from it. Whether he likes it or not, he has little choice but to ensure secularism as the basic underpinning of how he approaches his fellow citizens. All his decisions are challenge able in the courts of law if they fail this test.

Secularism is interpreted differently by a lot of people though it has one true meaning, equal treatment of all, an egalitarian society and equality for all religions at the heart. I made my points. I know that most Indians do not hold the principles of secularism very highly.

Electing Modi clearly represents that secularism and religious equality is not at the heart of todays India. We learned that years ago and hence my parents moved to Pakistan. We can only try though. We will try and build up a secular society in Pakistan. I don't have a stake in India or even Lucknow anymore though its a pain to see muslims suffer as they do in those regions.

Seeing muslims negatively is at the heart of India today. Even if you do see the muslims as foreign invaders, a secular society records both the muslim version and hindu version of events.

You have gone tangentially it seems....

My points are based on two of your assumptions...

1) You said Indian Muslims have to prove their Indianness by doing Hindu rituals. So why do Indonesians have to have Hindu gods and Hindu names? Their national carrier is called Garuda Airlines (google its relevance...)?
Why does Turks give equal oppostunites to Christians and Jews? What are they afraid of?

Infact, instead of Indian Muslims, its the Pakistanis who have to say this everytime to justify the creation of your nation. Remember, India have more Muslims than Pakistan. Even with all the crap posted on PDF, ever since Modi became PM, ZEEEEROOOO Muslims died in riots...

2) Everytime you go on about Hindu practices. Look at your own Pakistan.... Why Punjabis have mehendis and Bollywood style dance/ songs in marriages in Pakistna? Why was even Urdu inc=vented? You could have easily used Arabic. Isn't Urdu itself came out of the Hindu roots of India? All the urdu words are UNIQUE to this land (along with those borrowed from Persian and Arabic)... so that proves your Hindu connection.

Why should Muslims from Maharashtra and Assam not follow their ancestral customs and foreign arabic traditions? I know its hard for you people to fathom as for you guys everything is Islam.

I am afraid, India is much more than religion or casts or traditions. It is unique. This uniqueness is our Secularism.

It is important to treat all people equally in a secular society. They have their own religion. This impinging of Hindu culture and religion onto the muslims should not be occuring. The picture, as I said has 2 meanings for 2 people of different thinking. I will leave it to you how you "uphold secular traditions" but I can only say that all religions should be guided with their own laws. Culture is heavily defined by religion. For example it would be wrong to deny hindus cremation as it is wrong to ban cow slaughter for muslims. This is happening in India and muslims are forced to adopt Hindu customs to prove themselves loyal. It is unfortunate but I have noticed it constantly in our Lucknow.

than why do you cry?

The only one who has his panty's wet is you... I am having a logical debate.

 

[Bang Galore]

Secularism is interpreted differently by a lot of people though it has one true meaning, equal treatment of all, an egalitarian society and equality for all religions at the heart. I made my points. I know that most Indians do not hold the principles of secularism very highly.

Electing Modi clearly represents that secularism and religious equality is not at the heart of todays India. We learned that years ago and hence my parents moved to Pakistan. We can only try though. We will try and build up a secular society in Pakistan. I don't have a stake in India or even Lucknow anymore though its a pain to see muslims suffer as they do in those regions.

Seeing muslims negatively is at the heart of India today. Even if you do see the muslims as foreign invaders, a secular society records both the muslim version and hindu version of events.

Again secularism is a state concept, none of what you defined is practiced by individuals. It does not matter what individuals think, the state operates on the basis of the constitution. (for example, a large number of Americans & the people they elect are religious Christians who do not care for other religions. Makes no difference to the state which operates on secular principles)

Again, you fail to understand that electing Modi has nothing to do with secularism.

Your parents didn't move to be in a secular country, that is a hard yarn to spin. They might well be tolerant but to claim more is pushing the limits of the envelope.

It is not whether Muslims are seen as invaders (some were, others were not), history is what it is. No one stops anyone from putting out their version. Open it for debate & see what bit remains standing.

 

[HariPrasad]

panty's wet is you... I am having a logical debate.

Highlighted part of your comment shows how logical you are. A typical radical.

 

[haviZsultan]

Highlighted part of your comment shows how logical you are. A typical radical.

Lol. That coming from a Hindutva troll who elects a terrorist as PM.

Again secularism is a state concept, none of what you defined is practiced by individuals. It does not matter what individuals think, the state operates on the basis of the constitution. (for example, a large number of Americans & the people they elect are religious Christians who do not care for other religions. Makes no difference to the state which operates on secular principles)

Again, you fail to understand that electing Modi has nothing to do with secularism.

Your parents didn't move to be in a secular country, that is a hard yarn to spin. They might well be tolerant but to claim more is pushing the limits of the envelope.

It is not whether Muslims are seen as invaders (some were, others were not), history is what it is. No one stops anyone from putting out their version. Open it for debate & see what bit remains standing.

Finding an example of secularism which is ideal is rare but we can all paint a picture of a society that is truly secular and that picture is in our hearts. Different people define secularism in their own unique ways but one thing that should be understood is that secular societies give equality to religious minorities and the freedom to practice their own religious beliefs. What often occurs is that we paint majoritarianism with secular colors. For example the ban on headscarves in France is majoritarianism not secularism. True the French majority did not like the headscarf but that is not a representation of a truly secular society

What we can agree on perhaps is that muslims in India and Hindus in Pakistan need much more and a proper secular society can provide them with more.. This freedom has been given by neither India nor Pakistan, perhaps not even western nations like the Netherlands and France. The idea is that a people of a religion be free to practice their religious beliefs.