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Why Israel and Pakistan can never be allies

I'll tell you why we cant be allies
because our Arab brothers wont allow it
although they will allow each other to have diplomatic relations and trade with Israel
but when it comes to Pakistan

the full weight of Fatwas will land on us.

secondly

Israel and Pakistan dont really share any common goals to be allies

the best we can do is have a non-aggression and non-hostility towards each other. which is easier to achieve.

our Arab brothers will be happily frolicking with Israeli beauties around the world but we will bear the weight of their smite when one of our sportsman will make a deadly mistake of partnering with an Israeli in any game.

we are compelled to be more Arab than the Arabs themselves (nothing to do with Islam).
hence there is no chance of any normal relations with Israel, let alone becoming allies.

their liaison officers normally reside in US embassies if we are to communicate with them and likewise (I think) ours reside in Turkish embassies in order to pass a message without creating a the frown on our Arab brothers.

If there is an Indian embassy in Islamabad in spite Pakistan's long rivalry with India and the bitter conflict on Kashmir, then why not and Israeli embassy in Islamabad and a Pakistani one in Tel Aviv?
 
As soon as you start your argument my dear poster, you go off the paddle along political divisions. This is not scientific but a political analysis. Be honest my brother be honest.

I don't think there was Aryan "invasion" per se. perhaps it was migration where outsiders slowly took over the deeply fractured local groups.

Recent examples are the Mogal and other central Asian dynasties who were small in number and yet so successful in setting themselves atop of the huge number of Indian masses.

And who can forget the tiny number of Britishers who colonized so successfully that today pretty much all the systems in the region are "English". While British rule in upper Sindh valley (Balochistan, Northern Sindh, Punjab and KP) lasted only few decades, Central and East India was ruled by British in one way or the other for a century and a half.

So perhaps it is a combination of small incursions, few wars and immigration or migration that resulted in today's setup in Indus valley verses Ganga valley.

No need to jump on Dravidian parties. Come to think of it, Hinduism's top castes practically annihilated and ethnically cleansed and disenfranchised the lower castes. if you don't accept this historical fact, then you must be living in some distant planet in the same orbit as that of Islamist planet :).


Here is some scientific analysis (and relatively unbiased) for your taste buds.


===============================
The researchers showed that most Indian populations are genetic admixtures of two ancient, genetically divergent groups, which each contributed around 40-60% of the DNA to most present-day populations. One ancestral lineage — which is genetically similar to Middle Eastern, Central Asian and European populations — was higher in upper-caste individuals and speakers of Indo-European languages such as Hindi, the researchers found. The other lineage was not close to any group outside the subcontinent, and was most common in people indigenous to the Andaman Islands, a remote archipelago in the Bay of Bengal.
================================================================
source: Indian ancestry revealed : Nature News


peace.

Your Argument of High Caste and Low Caste is Structurally Flawed. No Offense, But Realized that since You are a Abrahamic whose belief, Independent thinking is bounded by strictly defined set of Lines, It is out of your Intellectual Capacity to Understand Hinduism, Caste System.

First, The Caste System has everything to with Occupation, Nothing to do with Skin Colour, You happen to propogate the Same Crap that the Western Academia defined in the 19th Century.
 
If there is an Indian embassy in Islamabad in spite Pakistan's long rivalry with India and the bitter conflict on Kashmir, then why not and Israeli embassy in Islamabad and a Pakistani one in Tel Aviv?
and will it be successful? When U.S and indians are there to dictate and propagate you against us. and then wat about palestanians? here few Pakistanis member easily advices of leaving them on thier own conditions and think about yourselves. but I still don't get it wat are we gon'na get from you? I don't think that its going to be beneficial for us.
 
and will it be successful? When U.S and indians are there to dictate and propagate you against us. and then wat about palestanians? here few Pakistanis member easily advices of leaving them on thier own conditions and think about yourselves. but I still don't get it wat are we gon'na get from you? I don't think that its going to be beneficial for us.

Pakistan can gain much more from Israel than Israel can benefit from contacts with Pakistan.
 
Why Israel and Pakistan can never be allies

One of the real reasons why Pakistan can't be on friendly terms with Israel:

Review: “The Jew Is Not My Enemy”
Sunday, February 27th, 2011
Just another school day in late December. Students at Karachi University gathered to discuss the latest news – class schedules, assignments, politics. They were solid students from middle-class homes, proud to be enrolled at the university and looking forward to life post-graduation. It was lunchtime, so small groups gathered to unwrap their meals, perhaps share their food. Across the lawn, a Shiite student’s group gathered to pray. Suddenly, a blast shattered the quiet. Four of the students from the prayer group were rushed to the hospital. Police arrested three students who were affiliated with an Islamic organization whose members are non-Shiite.
During the investigation, Ali Wasif, 23, a Shiite student leader who witnessed the bombing, said he attributed it to “Zionist” and other non-Muslim “elements.”

But that’s not new. Following the 9/11 attacks, a rumor spread around the world that some 4,000 Jews employed by companies housed in the World Trade Center stayed home from work, warned in advance of the impending attack (in some reports, the word “Jews” was replaced by “Israelis”).

When CBS News reporter Lara Logan was brutally assaulted in Tahir Square following the fall of Hosni Mubarak, the crowd of men reportedly shouted “Jew, Jew” as they were attacking her.


The question of why anti-Semitic rumors, thoughts and conspiracy theories are so prevalent in the Muslim world are a source of beffudlement in many quarters.
Tarek Fatah, in a scholarly and powerful new book “The Jew Is Not My Enemy: Unveiling the Myths That Fuel Anti-Semitism,” goes in-depth to explain the root causes of why the Muslim world is so suspicious of Jews.

To illustrate how pervasive anti-Semitic thought has become in Pakistan, Fatah shares an anecdote about a conversation he had with a group of Pakistan’s elite in 2006:

“My host and his friends were among the wealthy and well-educated elites of the land. The home where Muslim marginalization was being discussed boasted half a dozen cars in the driveway, a retinue of servants, and a front lawn that was larger than several back yards put together…

I laughed off what in the Islamic world is the ultimate insult to a Muslim – an allegation of being a Jewish lackey. I asked my friends if they were aware that Jews had come to the United States as poor immigrants escaping persecution in Europe in the nineteenth century, yet were able to assimilate and, through hard work, make incredible contributions to American life. I urged them to consider the fact that even though Jews make up just 2 percent of the US population, they form 21 percent of the Ivy League student body. I pointed out that this 2 percent of the American population accounts for 38 percent of Business Week’s list of leading philanthropists, 51 percent of the Pulitzer Prize winners for non-fiction, and 37 percent of Academy Award directors. But they saw in the same statistics the evidence of conspiracy theories: ‘That just proves that the Jews control the USA.’ I was speechless.”

A large portion of blame can be laid at the feet of the propaganda spread by media organizations in the Muslim world, many of which are tightly controlled by dictators who use inflammatory material to control restless, disgruntled and often illiterate masses. The tactic serves as an effective tool to change the subject from local misery and lack of political freedom and free speech to sympathizing with a rallying cause, usually that of the Palestinians, whose fate will ultimately have little to no impact on quality of life in the countries who populations agitate for their statehood. Indeed, as Fatah points out, even if the Palestinians were to be given their own homeland and the state of Israel ceased to exist, there is little chance that the anti-Semitism that has taken root in the Muslim world would cease to exist or even dissipate.


Fatah is no apologist for Israel. While supporting Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state, he writes that Israel must end its “illegal” and “immoral” occupation of Palestinian territory and push for a Palestinian state alongside Israel.

(.............................)

This work will be a hard pill to swallow for many readers, particularly in Pakistan, where conspiracy theories and paranoia have risen to such absurd levels that the author reports of a banner in a Karachi street reading “Bird Flu Is a Jewish Conspiracy.” For Pakistan and the rest of the Muslim world to advance, the media must take a more responsible role and cease spreading rumor as fact. The population needs to address grievances and Muslim-on-Muslim violence and repression of religious minorities rather than throw up their hands and continue to blame a Jewish conspiracy for their ills.

Even more sobering than the actual content of this bracing book is that Fatah has been praised as brave for writing it.

http://www.thepakistanupdate.com/tag/anti-semitism/
 
One of the real reasons why Pakistan can't be on friendly terms with Israel:

Review: “The Jew Is Not My Enemy”
Sunday, February 27th, 2011
Just another school day in late December. Students at Karachi University gathered to discuss the latest news – class schedules, assignments, politics. They were solid students from middle-class homes, proud to be enrolled at the university and looking forward to life post-graduation. It was lunchtime, so small groups gathered to unwrap their meals, perhaps share their food. Across the lawn, a Shiite student’s group gathered to pray. Suddenly, a blast shattered the quiet. Four of the students from the prayer group were rushed to the hospital. Police arrested three students who were affiliated with an Islamic organization whose members are non-Shiite.
During the investigation, Ali Wasif, 23, a Shiite student leader who witnessed the bombing, said he attributed it to “Zionist” and other non-Muslim “elements.”

But that’s not new. Following the 9/11 attacks, a rumor spread around the world that some 4,000 Jews employed by companies housed in the World Trade Center stayed home from work, warned in advance of the impending attack (in some reports, the word “Jews” was replaced by “Israelis”).

And where is the other part of the story... What about the Muslims living in foreign countries who are thought to be TERRORISTS if they get any close to their religion. Some even get picked up by agencies and are tortured in a brutal manner.. What about hundreds of Muslims in Guantanamo
I know people who even used to get suspected when going for camping (because they might be training for Jihad. :disagree: )
 
and will it be successful? When U.S and indians are there to dictate and propagate you against us. and then wat about palestanians? here few Pakistanis member easily advices of leaving them on thier own conditions and think about yourselves. but I still don't get it wat are we gon'na get from you? I don't think that its going to be beneficial for us.
You can ask this in another way, what you are loosing by not supporting Israel, or what your gaining in current situation. If you belive the current situation is better than supporting Israel, then you should support current situation, otherwise try to have good relationship with them.
In geopolitics there is nothing permanent, neither frirnds nor enemy, only constant is national interest. Pakistan should do whatever suits their national interest.
 
I can not help noticing why no Israeli or Israeli supporter addresses the completely logical issues raised by the article that Sharmine a Palestinian has written. Clearly she is articulate and speaks from her heart. There is not one word or line I can fault her on. As far as Pakistan is concerned we should do what is right. Side with dispossessed Palestinians. Not cos they are Muslim nor cos they are Arabs but because it is correct and just to do so






By Sharmine Narwani


The phrase “right to exist” entered my consciousness in the 1990s just as the concept of the two-state solution became part of our collective lexicon. In any debate at university, when a Zionist was out of arguments, those three magic words were invoked to shut down the conversation with an outraged, “are you saying Israel doesn’t have the right to exist??”

Of course you couldn’t challenge Israel’s right to exist – that was like saying you were negating a fundamental Jewish right to have…rights, with all manner of Holocaust guilt thrown in for effect.

Except of course the Holocaust is not my fault – or that of Palestinians. The cold-blooded program of ethnically cleansing Europe of its Jewish population has been so callously and opportunistically utilized to justify the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arab nation, that it leaves me utterly unmoved. I have even caught myself – shock - rolling my eyes when I hear Holocaust and Israel in the same sentence.

What moves me instead in this post-two-state era, is the sheer audacity of Israel even existing.

What a fantastical idea, this notion that a bunch of rank outsiders from another continent could appropriate an existing, populated nation for themselves – and convince the “global community” that it was the moral thing to do. I’d laugh at the chutzpah if this wasn’t so serious.

Even more brazen is the mass ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Palestinian population by persecuted Jews, newly arrived from their own experience of being ethnically cleansed.

But what is truly frightening is the psychological manipulation of the masses into believing that Palestinians are somehow dangerous – “terrorists” intent on “driving Jews into the sea.” As someone who makes a living through words, I find the use of language in creating perceptions to be intriguing. This practice – often termed “public diplomacy” has become an essential tool in the world of geopolitics. Words, after all, are the building blocks of our psychology.

Take, for example, the way we have come to view the Palestinian-Israeli “dispute” and any resolution of this enduring conflict. And here I borrow liberally from a previous article of mine…

The United States and Israel have created the global discourse on this issue, setting stringent parameters that grow increasingly narrow regarding the content and direction of this debate. Anything discussed outside the set parameters has, until recently, widely been viewed as unrealistic, unproductive and even subversive.

Participation in the debate is limited only to those who prescribe to its main tenets: the acceptance of Israel, its regional hegemony and its qualitative military edge; acceptance of the shaky logic upon which the Jewish state's claim to Palestine is based; and acceptance of the inclusion and exclusion of certain regional parties, movements and governments in any solution to the conflict.

Words like dove, hawk, militant, extremist, moderates, terrorists, Islamo-fascists, rejectionists, existential threat, holocaust-denier, mad mullah determine the participation of solution partners -- and are capable of instantly excluding others.

Then there is the language that preserves "Israel's Right To Exist" unquestioningly: anything that invokes the Holocaust, anti-Semitism and the myths about historic Jewish rights to the land bequeathed to them by the Almighty – as though God was in the real-estate business. This language seeks not only to ensure that a Jewish connection to Palestine remains unquestioned, but importantly, seeks to punish and marginalize those who tackle the legitimacy of this modern colonial-settler experiment.

But this group-think has led us nowhere. It has obfuscated, distracted, deflected, ducked, and diminished, and we are no closer to a satisfactory conclusion…because the premise is wrong.

There is no fixing this problem. This is the kind of crisis in which you cut your losses, realize the error of your ways and reverse course. Israel is the problem. It is the last modern-day colonial-settler experiment, conducted at a time when these projects were being unraveled globally.

There is no “Palestinian-Israeli conflict” – that suggests some sort of equality in power, suffering, and negotiable tangibles, and there is no symmetry whatsoever in this equation. Israel is the Occupier and Oppressor; Palestinians are the Occupied and Oppressed. What is there to negotiate? Israel holds all the chips. They can give back some land, property, rights, but even that is an absurdity – what about everything else? What about ALL the land, property and rights? Why do they get to keep anything – how is the appropriation of land and property prior to 1948 fundamentally different from the appropriation of land and property on this arbitrary 1967 date?

Why are the colonial-settlers prior to 1948 any different from those who colonized and settled after 1967?

Let me correct myself. Palestinians do hold one chip that Israel salivates over – the one big demand at the negotiating table that seems to hold up everything else. Israel craves recognition of its “right to exist.”

But you do exist - don’t you, Israel?

Israel fears “delegitimization” more than anything else. Behind the velvet curtain lies a state built on myths and narratives, protected only by a military behemoth, billions of dollars in US assistance and a lone UN Security Council veto. Nothing else stands between the state and its dismantlement. Without these three things, Israelis would not live in an entity that has come to be known as the “least safe place for Jews in the world.”

Strip away the spin and the gloss, and you quickly realize that Israel doesn’t even have the basics of a normal state. After 64 years, it doesn’t have borders. After six decades, it has never been more isolated. Over half a century later, and it needs a gargantuan military just to stop Palestinians from walking home.

Israel is a failed experiment. It is on life-support – pull those three plugs and it is a cadaver, living only in the minds of some seriously deluded foreigners who thought they could pull off the heist of the century.

The most important thing we can do as we hover on the horizon of One State is to shed the old language rapidly. None of it was real anyway – it was just the parlance of that particular “game.” Grow a new vocabulary of possibilities – the new state will be the dawn of humanity’s great reconciliation. Muslims, Christians and Jews living together in Palestine as they once did.

Naysayers can take a hike. Our patience is wearing thinner than the walls of the hovels that Palestinian refugees have called “home” for three generations in their purgatory camps.

These universally exploited refugees are entitled to the nice apartments – the ones that have pools downstairs and a grove of palm trees outside the lobby. Because the kind of compensation owed for this failed western experiment will never be enough.

And no, nobody hates Jews. That is the fallback argument screeched in our ears – the one “firewall” remaining to protect this Israeli Frankenstein. I don’t even care enough to insert the caveats that are supposed to prove I don’t hate Jews. It is not a provable point, and frankly, it is a straw man of an argument. If Jews who didn’t live through the Holocaust still feel the pain of it, then take that up with the Germans. Demand a sizeable plot of land in Germany – and good luck to you.

For anti-Semites salivating over an article that slams Israel, ply your trade elsewhere – you are part of the reason this problem exists.

Israelis who don’t want to share Palestine as equal citizens with the indigenous Palestinian population – the ones who don’t want to relinquish that which they demanded Palestinians relinquish 64 years ago - can take their second passports and go back home. Those remaining had better find a positive attitude – Palestinians have shown themselves to be a forgiving lot. The amount of carnage they have experienced at the hands of their oppressors – without proportional response – shows remarkable restraint and faith.

This is less the death of a Jewish state than it is the demise of the last remnants of modern-day colonialism. It is a rite of passage – we will get through it just fine. At this particular precipice in the 21st century, we are all, universally, Palestinian – undoing this wrong is a test of our collective humanity, and nobody has the right to sit this one out.

Israel has no right to exist. Break that mental barrier and just say it: “Israel has no right to exist.” Roll it around your tongue, tweet it, post it as your Facebook status update – do it before you think twice. Delegitimization is here – have no fear. Palestine will be less painful than Israel ever was.


back to topic there is nothing that Pakistan and or Pakistanis can do Zionists will always treat Pakistanis with suspicion. Also Hindutva and Zionism are natural allies
 
you mean in the same way the Palestinians are benefiting from you.. :smokin: Noo Thankx...

You know what I mean and it is Pakistan's lost.

I can not help noticing why no Israeli or Israeli supporter addresses the completely logical issues raised by the article that Sharmine a Palestinian has written. Clearly she is articulate and speaks from her heart. There is not one word or line I can fault her on. As far as Pakistan is concerned we should do what is right. Side with dispossessed Palestinians. Not cos they are Muslim nor cos they are Arabs but because it is correct and just to do so

Your standards of just and right are quite twisted. Pakistan has no problem to be a human right violator and have contacts with the worst kind of regimes on earth, such as in North Korea, Iran, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Cuba.

And other oppressors such as China, Russia, Myanmar, Syria, KSA, UAE, and list goes on and on.

yet Pakistan is not allowed to have relations with Israel.
 
Your standards of just and right are quite twisted. Pakistan has no problem to be a human right violator and have contacts with the worst kind of regimes on earth, such as in North Korea, Iran, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Cuba.

And other oppressors such as China, Russia, Myanmar, Syria, KSA, UAE, and list goes on and on.

yet Pakistan is not allowed to have relations with Israel.
I agree in spirit but how is UAE an oppressor?
 
I agree in spirit but how is UAE an oppressor?

Well, a very soft one (compared with the others)... it is not a democracy and its people does not have political rights which are elementary such as protesting against the regime, free media, women rights and etc.
 
You know what I mean and it is Pakistan's lost.



Your standards of just and right are quite twisted. Pakistan has no problem to be a human right violator and have contacts with the worst kind of regimes on earth, such as in North Korea, Iran, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Cuba.

And other oppressors such as China, Russia, Myanmar, Syria, KSA, UAE, and list goes on and on.

yet Pakistan is not allowed to have relations with Israel.

I have not said that Pakistan must not have relations with Israel. I have asked you to address the matters that Palestinian has raised in her article.

If those issues are resolved then we can have the basis and foundation for true relations and recognition.
 
Just one question to everyone, how is Palestine benefiting from our 'gesture'?
Answer: They're not

Logically, are we losing something? Yes, we are.

Easy decision if you ask me
 
It's one of the most proud aspects of holding a Pakistani passport, just to see the non-recognition ofthe Zionist terrorist crusader outpost known as Israel.

Once Uncle Sam is no longer the worlds biggest superpower, it's little outpost in the holy land will be wiped off the pages of history. This day is ever moving closer.
 
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