Whatever

[Naofumi]

I hate it when posts start with "Naah".

Well, world can't be custom made for us.

 

[jamahir]

Well, world can't be custom made for us.

Still, we can do without these silly wordings.

 

[Joe Shearer]

By Fifth Army, the reference is to a Fifth Column. That goes back to Francisco Franco, who said that he had four columns marching against Madrid, and a fifth column inside the city.

 

[Nike]

You mention the Fifth army. Which are the other four ?



Hmm, so the mullahs / clerics were big, feudal landowners who had peasants working on their farms. Am I correct ?

And are there no PKI activists living now, in Indonesia or outside ?

---

@Naofumi @Joe Shearer ( @Nilgiri, you too ), please read Nike's post to get a more clear picture of the Sukarno-Suharto conflict. Also, to know what is Nasakom please read this Wikipedia page.

And from that page :

About the underlined... The PKI was the Communist Party of Indonesia. I suppose because of its China-orientation the anti-PKI genocide of 1965-66 did not gain much publicity because the Soviet Union did not choose to make it known to the world. Sad.

The other is the four branch of armed forces, Army, Air Forces, Navy and Police. In East Java, Bengkulu, Lampung, Central Java is largely like that.

Usually only rich people and landowner in the past who get more free time to pursue religion faith as their economy condition is made them free from the burden of heavy workload during the days. Thats why, in Indonesia cleric usually trader and landowner too, they are came from middle class strata.

Soekarno and Soeharto actually doesnt have conflict and their relationship before 30 September 1965 is very minimal. Actually Soeharto grudge is against his fellow Army officers, especially many of his superior like Ahmad Yani (who known to slap him in Public for misconduct and corruption issue), against Abdul Haris Nasution who is known for dismissed him from the army (again for corruption case) only being superseded by General Gatot Subroto as Soeharto strongest backer in the army. Ironically, most of the generals who killed in 30 September 1965 incident all had case and issue with Soeharto, including the fortunate to live Abdul Haris Nasution.

The genocide itself happened very quickly and spontan, with very little preparation from the both sides (perperator and the target killings), but the involvement of the Army which at the time is being ready to assemble to put forward for mobilization against Malaysia during confrontation (around 140,000 personnel is being ready in their barrack especially after Sunda Strait incident and imminent full blown conflict against British is very plausible) made the killings can be happened smoothly and any resistence can be quelled effectively.

PKI itself at the time is actually leaning toward Maoist and Stalinist ideology, and with Kruschev at the helm of Soviet union there is little care from the Soviet toward PKI especially with Kruschev purge of Stalinist ideology.

There is report about the pledge of PRC to "donate" of large scale of small arms (especially chung rifle) from China toward Indonesia to arming the peasants and laborer affiliated with PKI underwing organization. There is impending first shipments of 100,000 rifle including Ak47 toward Indonesia in late 1965, but the conflict already erupted, fortunately so the civil war can be avoided. The involvement of Zhou En Lai to instigated the formation of fifth army bringing Indonesia at odds with China, as even Omar Dhani (Indonesia ex Air Chief of staff made statements of the deals is already in place in which the Air force will get 25,000 rifle to arming their own forces).


https://tirto.id/tentang-pasokan-ribuan-senjata-dari-cina-pada-1965-cxeo

If this happened , the most worst possible scenario is Indonesia civil war, in which will involved the Army against Air Forces, in which the Air force will be backed by the communist and Army will be backed by cleric (NU and Muhammadiyah) along with Soekarno follower who in grudge against Communist party.

Today Indonesia is very alergic and avoiding the word of Communist, involved with one and you will suffer for live. Indonesia communist party is dead in Indonesia, the remnant of it even in foreign soil prefer not to associated themselves with ones as it will spells trouble.

 

[jamahir]

By Fifth Army, the reference is to a Fifth Column. That goes back to Francisco Franco, who said that he had four columns marching against Madrid, and a fifth column inside the city.

No Joe, in this case you are incorrect. The Fifth army would have been the PKI's armed peasant and labor force. For the other four, below is what Nike posted :

The other is the four branch of armed forces, Army, Air Forces, Navy and Police. In East Java, Bengkulu, Lampung, Central Java is largely like that.

 

[Joe Shearer]

No Joe, in this case you are incorrect. Below is what Nike posted :

Oh, that's interesting!

 

[jamahir]

Oh, that's interesting!

Sorry, posted an incomplete reply.

The Fifth army would have been the PKI's armed peasant and labor force. The other four being the regular army, air force, navy and the police.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sorry, posted an incomplete reply.

The Fifth army would have been the PKI's armed peasant and labor force. The other four being the regular army, air force, navy and the police.

That was mentioned in the original so that's all right.

 

[Nilgiri]

You mention the Fifth army. Which are the other four ?



Hmm, so the mullahs / clerics were big, feudal landowners who had peasants working on their farms. Am I correct ?

And are there no PKI activists living now, in Indonesia or outside ?

---

@Naofumi @Joe Shearer ( @Nilgiri, you too ), please read Nike's post to get a more clear picture of the Sukarno-Suharto conflict. Also, to know what was Nasakom please read this Wikipedia page.

And from that page :

About the underlined... The PKI was the Communist Party of Indonesia. I suppose because of its China-orientation the anti-PKI genocide of 1965-66 did not gain much publicity because the Soviet Union did not choose to make it known to the world. Sad.

Yes I have long read her posts on the matter quite some years back. Not much new here for me, she is rehashing all the strong points/analysis she has made from before.

She (Nike) is well read and knowledgeable about her country's history and setup.

 

[El Sidd]

@Foxtrot mafia

dude @HariPrasad ko azad kardo kab se banned hai

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Ignored Manekshaw orders, captured Dhaka: JFR Jacob

Express News Service , Express News Service : NEW DELHI, APRIL 30, Tue May 01 2007, 01:29 hrs

Lt Gen JFR Jacob (retd) has for the first time gone on record and said that he bypassed the 1971 Bangladesh liberation war plan drawn up by then Chief of Army Staff Gen Sam Manekshaw and headed off on his own to capture Dhaka without the approval of the army chief.
In an interview with Karan Thapar on a Monday night CNBC show, Jacob, who was the Chief of Staff, Eastern Command, during the war, said he turned a 'Nelson's eye' to a direct order by Manekshaw to capture all major towns that fell in the way of the Indian Army's thrust towards Dhaka.

"His (Manekshaw's) plans were very different. The war plan given to us in writing was just for Chittagong and Khulna. Dhaka did not figure in his plans at all," Jacob, who wrested an unconditional surrender from Pakistan's Gen Niazi in Dhaka to end the war, said.

He confirmed that he asked his corps commanders to ignore the army chief's orders. "Had we taken the towns, victory would have been delayed," the Jacob said.

The former Punjab and Goa governor also said Manekshaw was kept in the dark about the moving of three mountain divisions from the Chinese border for the Dhaka thrust. "Me and Inder Gill (the then DGMO) had an understanding. Manekshaw did not know about this," he said.

He added that Manekshaw's refusal to let him move the additional brigades into Bangladesh for five days after the war started delayed the process of capturing Dhaka. The General added that it was on his insistence that India refrained from engaging in hostilities in April 1971.

"He (Manekshaw) rang me up three times in April to move for Bangladesh, but I refused," Jacob said. He added that a lack of bridges, transportation and other resources besides the oncoming monsoons made it impossible for the army to strike in April.

The officer also agreed that while the Army headquarters had drawn up its own plan to attack Eastern Pakistan, the navy and air force "were left to make plans on their own".

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/ignored-manekshaw-orders-captured-dhaka-jfr-jacob/29755/0

@padamchen

- PRTP GWD

 

[fatman17]

“Remember the helpers.” This police sergeant was the first rescuer on the scene. With no protection/oxygen, he repeatedly charged into a blazing inferno to extricate building residents and passengers. Pushed himself till forcibly carried off to hospital for aid. Cc @beenshfatima/ https://t.co/0QJKYYopfF

 

[padamchen]

Ignored Manekshaw orders, captured Dhaka: JFR Jacob

Express News Service , Express News Service : NEW DELHI, APRIL 30, Tue May 01 2007, 01:29 hrs

Lt Gen JFR Jacob (retd) has for the first time gone on record and said that he bypassed the 1971 Bangladesh liberation war plan drawn up by then Chief of Army Staff Gen Sam Manekshaw and headed off on his own to capture Dhaka without the approval of the army chief.
In an interview with Karan Thapar on a Monday night CNBC show, Jacob, who was the Chief of Staff, Eastern Command, during the war, said he turned a 'Nelson's eye' to a direct order by Manekshaw to capture all major towns that fell in the way of the Indian Army's thrust towards Dhaka.

"His (Manekshaw's) plans were very different. The war plan given to us in writing was just for Chittagong and Khulna. Dhaka did not figure in his plans at all," Jacob, who wrested an unconditional surrender from Pakistan's Gen Niazi in Dhaka to end the war, said.

He confirmed that he asked his corps commanders to ignore the army chief's orders. "Had we taken the towns, victory would have been delayed," the Jacob said.

The former Punjab and Goa governor also said Manekshaw was kept in the dark about the moving of three mountain divisions from the Chinese border for the Dhaka thrust. "Me and Inder Gill (the then DGMO) had an understanding. Manekshaw did not know about this," he said.

He added that Manekshaw's refusal to let him move the additional brigades into Bangladesh for five days after the war started delayed the process of capturing Dhaka. The General added that it was on his insistence that India refrained from engaging in hostilities in April 1971.

"He (Manekshaw) rang me up three times in April to move for Bangladesh, but I refused," Jacob said. He added that a lack of bridges, transportation and other resources besides the oncoming monsoons made it impossible for the army to strike in April.

The officer also agreed that while the Army headquarters had drawn up its own plan to attack Eastern Pakistan, the navy and air force "were left to make plans on their own".

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/ignored-manekshaw-orders-captured-dhaka-jfr-jacob/29755/0

@padamchen

- PRTP GWD

I'll reserve my comments on a Pakistani forum.

Thank you.

 

[Nilgiri]

“Remember the helpers.” This police sergeant was the first rescuer on the scene. With no protection/oxygen, he repeatedly charged into a blazing inferno to extricate building residents and passengers. Pushed himself till forcibly carried off to hospital for aid. Cc @beenshfatima/ https://t.co/0QJKYYopfF
View attachment 634952View attachment 634953View attachment 634954

Bravehearts...my respect! @PanzerKiel

Maybe we can start a dedicated thread to better collect and appreciate these chaps that go all the way to help out their fellow humans...when this tragedy struck. @waz

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

I'll reserve my comments on a Pakistani forum.

Thank you.

Blame media then. Hum toh aam janta hai. Aam janta usi baat ka yakin karegi jo media bolegi.

- PRTP GWD