What Iranians and Saudis refuse to realize!

[FaujHistorian]

Actually US has distanced itself from Middle eastern oil for a while now, it is actually Europeans who are still dependent on oil from that region. If there was another oil embargo like in the 70s the US would be OK despite the rise in prices here at the pumps but Europeans would bend over backwards to prevent such an embargo.

yeah.

And USA is saying it should stay around to protect the interest of its allies.

Regarding the imperialism nonsense.

Arabs ruled various Caliphates for 1000 years and had way bigger empires than the Iranians. So that logic makes no sense. The Semitic people were also the first people in the ME region who had real empires. So I don't agree with that notion either. Italians also once ruled an empire (Roman Empire) but I don't seem them being imperialists at all.



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Besides the old days of conquering whole lands have ended long ago. So that argument is not even valuable anymore. There is a difference of seeing yourself as a regional power and wanting influence and then having deluded dreams of conquering any foreign land.

Arabs may be.

But not Saudis or people from modern day Saudi Arabia


They were tribal biduins mostly with few civilized places that were usually 100s if not 1000s of miles from the power centers of these empires.


In fact modern day Saudi was just a distant province at best.

 

[KingMamba]

yeah.

And USA is saying it should stay around to protect the interest of its allies.

Only if protecting their interests benefits us, the minute it doesn't trust me US will give two shts about European interests. Europeans know this too, the only nation whose interests will always have priority in US policy making is that blot in the Levant.

 

[Baradar]

This is so true but I am shocked an Iranian would admit to this, now with this being stated you can understand why the Arabs would fear a powerful Iran (even if they refuse to admit it). The only solution is for both sides to respect the territorial boundaries already present and stop trying to turn other states into their playgrounds.

Of course I can understand their fear. It is a logical fear. But I don't agree with the fact that this is a Persian-Arab rivalry. Although in the end Arabs started it when they invaded Iran. Even if Arabs would not live in the region, Iranians would have tried to increase their influence in the region. We have always tried do that. Long before Arabs started to emerge on the world stage.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Only if protecting their interests benefits us, the minute it doesn't trust me US will give two shts about European interests. Europeans know this too, the only nation whose interests will always have priority in US policy making is that blot in the Levant.

Listen to Gen., Odearno Yaar.

I am not saying you or I'll decide.

 

[al-Hasani]

yeah.

And USA is saying it should stay around to protect the interest of its allies.

KSA has never had any expansionist ideas. That idea died when Al-Saud finished off the Ikhwan who were about to conquer the British held areas in Transjordan and Iraq.

KSA has ALWAYS been a closed off society. This was a deliberate tactic by the rulers.

Iran on the other hand and the Mullah's see themselves as the leaders of Shias worldwide. Hence their use of religion as a way of expansion since 1979. Without religion how could they otherwise rally Southern Shia Lebanese 2000 km away that have nothing to do with Iran?

Well we all know the answer.

Also you have 4 majority Shia countries in the world. Tiny Bahrain which has 60% Shias, Azerbaijan which is the most secular Muslim country in the world and not even allies with Iran, Iraq which is 60% Shia and then Iran as the only major Shia country in the WORLD.
So naturally they would assume the leadership role of the Shia world especially after installing the holy Grand Ayatollahs in 1979.

KSA on the other hand might be the cradle of Islam but we have no authority to assume such a leadership role when 90% of all Muslim are Sunnis and who have dozens of powerful Sunni majority countries.

It is that simple really.

 

[KingMamba]

Of course I can understand their fear. It is a logical fear. But I don't agree with the fact that this is a Persian-Arab rivalry. Although in the end Arabs started it when they invaded Iran. Even if Arabs would not live in the region, Iranians would have tried to increase their influence in the region. We have always tried do that. Long before Arabs started to emerge on the world stage.

Actually Iran been started it way back Arabs only retaliated when they had the power to do so. No one's hands are clean in this mess but you guys only make things worse by trying to settle centuries old beefs in a day and age (today) where annexing land is pretty much mute so the only result from hostilities can be death and destruction with no change of borders. Pretty much what we are seeing.

 

[Baradar]

Actually Iran been started it way back Arabs only retaliated when they had the power to do so. No one's hands are clean in this mess but you guys only make things worse by trying to settle centuries old beefs in a day and age (today) where annexing land is pretty much mute so the only result from hostilities can be death and destruction with no change of borders. Pretty much what we are seeing.

I meant the Arab (Iraqi) invasion of 1980. That started this whole proxy war between Iranians and Arabs. Although you are right about this historical example. Persians started the imperialistic surge in the world, and especially in the Middle East. I know, Italians and Greeks have lost their appetite for conquest, but Iranians remarkably haven't.

 

[KingMamba]

Listen to Gen., Odearno Yaar.

I am not saying you or I'll decide.

Of course we won't but often what the generals on the ground say is totally overlooked by the suits in Washington.

 

[FaujHistorian]

KSA has never had any expansionist ideas. That idea died when Al-Saud finished of the Ikhwan who were about to conquer the British held areas in Transjordan and Iraq.

KSA has ALWAYS been a closed off society. This was a deliberate tactic by the rulers.

Until Ibn Saud successfully united all the tribes, KSA didn't exist and thus was simply a land of different tribes.

Saud was smart enough to realize that any attempt to go beyond modern day boundary of KSA will put him in a very complex management.

He definitely was a lot smarter than so many kings, presidents, PMs and Ayatullahs of today.


I wish modern day leaders learn a thing or two from him as to how to cajole and threaten and use carrot and stick to mold bunch of tribes into a strong nation.

I only wish we had a leader like him in Pakistan.

 

[Baradar]

Without region how could they otherwise rally Southern Shia Lebanese 2000 km away that have nothing to do with Iran?

You mean they have no ethnic or linguistic bond with Iran? That is right, but don't forget that Persian-Phoenician relations goes back thousands of years. If I'm right, Shia Lebanese in South Lebanon are the descendants of these Phoenicians, so perhaps there is some unconscious bond between us.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Of course we won't but often what the generals on the ground say is totally overlooked by the suits in Washington.

And generals on the ground want to stay. That's the point in Odearno's talks and essays.

 

[KingMamba]

And generals on the ground want to stay. That's the point in Odearno's talks and essays.

No doubt US is going to stay in Afghanistan but the number of troops will be debated for a while, anyway all this is speculation and off topic.

 

[Audio]

Actually US has distanced itself from Middle eastern oil for a while now, it is actually Europeans who are still dependent on oil from that region. If there was another oil embargo like in the 70s the US would be OK despite the rise in prices here at the pumps but Europeans would bend over backwards to prevent such an embargo.

lol what are you talking.....

U.S. Imports from Persian Gulf Countries of Crude Oil and Petroleum Products (Thousand Barrels)

From above link you can calculate yearly import from monthly import quotas and they exceed what Eu imported in the same year which you can check at link below, click the first zip for download, open 2012 pdf file.

Energy: EU Crude oil imports - European Commission

It's 789 082 for US and 591 703 for EU.
In 2013 US imported less when compared to 2012, but the differences aren't drastic, at a quick glance on average less then 10% for any given month.

If i'm not mistaken the majority of ME oil products is sold to Asian countries, China, Japan, Korea etc etc....

 

[al-Hasani]

Until Ibn Saud successfully united all the tribes, KSA didn't exist and thus was simply a land of different tribes.

Saud was smart enough to realize that any attempt to go beyond modern day boundary of KSA will put him in a very complex management.

He definitely was a lot smarter than so many kings, presidents, PMs and Ayatullahs of today.


I wish modern day leaders learn a thing or two from him as to how to cajole and threaten and use carrot and stick to mold bunch of tribes into a strong nation.

I only wish we had a leader like him in Pakistan.

What is now the territory of KSA was ruled by various rulers either kings, sheikhs, emirs, sultans etc. You had Hijazis, Najdis, Southerners, Khaleejis, Northerners and dozens of others.

All those individuals like anywhere else in that time period had conflicts and different interests. Some where allies with the Ottomans and some were not. KSA is a vast land that was always difficult to fully control by one single ruler or dynasty. Due to geographical distances, the landscapes (mountains, desert areas, valleys etc.) and other factors. The population was also small.

Ibn Saud started a campaign to liberate his ancestors lost land that the Al-Rashids had conquered (Emirate of Jabal Shammar) and he succeeded. Later he continued his campaigns and won more land until he had conquered all of what is KSA today. It had nothing to do with Sunni or Shia or anything. It was a power struggle between dynasties and rulers. Most of the fighting was done between Sunnis.

The ME could literary be divided into 100 more countries but that would only weaken the region so uniting was a very good choice. Iran could literary turn into 10 different countries or so to take an example.

 

[atatwolf]

I meant the Arab (Iraqi) invasion of 1980. That started this whole proxy war between Iranians and Arabs. Although you are right about this historical example. Persians started the imperialistic surge in the world, and especially in the Middle East. I know, Italians and Greeks have lost their appetite for conquest, but Iranians remarkably haven't.

Iran hasn't lost appetite for conquest? Who are you going to conquest? And do you even have the equipment? Iran's army is defensive, not offensive any aggresive move from Iran will give green light to Israel to pick you apart and Azerbaijan and remaining neighbors will take their stake with the distribution of the booty.