Vietnam ordered stealth destroyers P28 of India

[Penguin]

On Sigma 9814 for VIetnam from 23/02/2016
http://soha.vn/quan-su/bat-ngo-viet-nam-se-som-dong-tau-ho-ve-ten-lua-sigma-20160223150532797.htm

Translation:

Surprise: Vietnam will soon ship missile protector Sigma?
Binh Nguyen | 23/02/2016 19:30

At the upcoming 2016 Vietship opening tomorrow, Damen has exhibited models missile escort vessel Sigma-9814. Is affordable Vietnam has decided to close these vessels?
Sigma missile escort vessel continued to be exhibited

Are witnessing the expert group members of Damen Group (Netherlands) directly meticulously prepared each li by little to perfection booth, we see just how professional they are.

Although there are quite a team assisting Vietnam, but the "Mr. West, her dress" was directly involved in most things to be ready for the exhibition is opening tomorrow (24.02.2016 ) at the National Convention Center (Hanoi).

The most interesting is to see the "Westerner" directly held vacuum cleaner toilet every corner of the booth, and then took a cloth each sash to them becoming clear, make the models glow flashed , attracting all glances.

Two of the models will probably be many visitors to sample most interest is the missile escort vessel and the vessel Coast Guard Sigma DN-2000 number 8002, because we have and will make the power of the Navy Vietnam and the maritime law enforcement forces.

In particular, Sigma-9814 is placed in the most prominent place, right in the aisles and is the first point of access for all visitors.

Thus, once again escort vessel named Sigma-9814 Vietnam flag to be displayed and be cared thoroughly by Dutch experts. That speaks only to find that the sample mark Sigma is in Vietnam and because Vietnam or not?

Obviously, the Damen Group and members from the Netherlands to participate in this exhibition very much expect a bright outlook and desire to not only 2 but could be more but the rocket ship Sigma Guardians stand Navy squad in Vietnam.

The last configuration has been selected?

Unlike previous times Exhibition (Vietship 2014), exhibited simultaneously Damen 2 model ship missile protector Sigma-9814, including one sample with a sample containing the remaining helicopters and no, this was just typical Damen 1 single presentation template container ships with helicopters.

If this is the last sample has been selected? It is difficult to assert this right when both Vietnam and the Netherlands still no official statement.

Still, we can be satisfied with the configuration of the missile escort vessel modern helicopter hangars. Because, it will provide adequate conditions for helicopter operations following organic patrol boats, long days at sea warfare.

There are brothels will help limit the effects of weather, the salt spray from the sea, which has enormous influence on the longevity and reliability of the helicopter, with this new effort to save the team ensure aeronautical engineering.

Compared to ship samples Sigma-9814 has exhibited publicly Vietnam 2 years ago, basically everything nothing changed much, still is:

- The ship is designed to shorten modular maximum building construction process. Stealth capabilities of ships is still strong with low superstructure, is calculated to reduce radar reflection area.

- Ships with size (length x width x waterline): 99.91 x 14.02 x 3.75m, 2,150 tons displacement, 103 detonators sailors.

- Firepower of Sigma 9814 includes anti-ship missiles 8 Exocet MM40 Block III subsonic (range 180km) on 2 launchers, arranged in the middle of the ship; Oto Melara main gun 76,2mm; missile vertical launch Mica-M VL-advanced, with 2 guns MARLIN-WS.

This is the most advanced weapons that the West's supply partners are France and Italy, the Netherlands (represented by Damen) is just a general contractor, is responsible to integrate and install them onto the ship Sigma.

9814 Sigma's heart lies in the central command system Tacticos by Thales (France) development.

The system can synchronize signals, fire commanders throughout the ship, from radar SMART-S Mk2 looked round (250 km-range reconnaissance, tracking 500 targets at once) to the anti-ship missile system, non, torpedoes, artillery and decoys and electronic jamming.

In addition, Sigma Vietnam can be fitted B515 launchers to fire anti-ship torpedoes types EuroTorp Modern Mode II 3A 244S / MU 90.

It is not clear vessel can be installed consortium submarine weaponry positioning active / passive Thales UMS 4132 Kingklip onboard or not, but the model exhibited at Vietship 2016, 9814 Sigma can fully equipped with the combinations of weapons, modern weapons.

In a separate incident, according to the Data Transfer 2015 world weapons SIPRI (Institute for International Peace Studies Stockholm) has recently updated Thursday 2.21, Sigma-9814 ships listed Vietnam ordered from the Netherlands signed in 2013.

But wait and see because anyway Sigma-9814 though marginally better rates than some other vessel form, but clearly "money, will persist".

 

[BoQ77]

to me, DN-4000 is a test platform for building heavy frigate or light destroyer

 

[Penguin]

Thank you, that's the same information we have in Vietnam and I had also noticed that is quite different than the Holland class, so I was hoping that more info was available on the Dutch side, but it seems like we'll have to wait (as it is always the case with Vietnam's military projects).

Yes, a a progression of the DN-2000 seems right, Its clear then that it is a customized version for Vietnam or a new Damen design.

DN 2000 - a Vietnamese designation - is used to refer the the Damen 9014 OPV (number represents length and beam). See http://www.bairdmaritime.com/index....-for-vietnam-marine-police&catid=73&Itemid=65

Supposedly DN 4000 will be 120m by 16m. However, searching on "Damen 12016" just ends you up on Damen's news page about a new line of 'gen 2' OPVs.
http://www.damen.com/en/news/2015/0...pv_to_meet_demand_for_multi_mission_platforms

 

[Carlosa]

- About Vietnam budget: Let me summarize:
1. 2x Gepard-class frigated received, 2x ongoing build, negotiating 2x more.
or 2x Sigma-class thought to be on order
Each ship costs at least 300 million dollars.
2. 6x Kilo-class subs ordered back to 2009, 5x received. Total Cost is nearly 3 billion dollars.
3. 8x DN-2000 2200 ton completed,...

What @Carlosa feel a pity is why Vietnam don't pay more attention to more capable designs, but stick to Gepard class or Sigma class at 300 million dollars each. To him, instead of putting more than 1 billion dollars for 4x Gepard class , why don't change to other design like heavy armed, stretched hull P28, to turn it to an anti air capable light destroyer, with displacement about 4000 tonnages and above.

Vietnam DN-2000

Thank you. This is what bothers me:

1) One mistake after another as well as plenty of bad luck in the Vietnamese program of surface vessels:

A) The debacle of the BPS-500 that had not only design problems, but was also conceived in a flawed way, it was really a bad design to begin with and it was ok to terminate the program.

B) The KBO-2000 program for a 2100 ton light frigate was actually looking pretty good and I'm not aware of any flaws in it, it actually has better weapon systems than the Gepard, a good multirole light frigate. It started in the early 90s, so imagine how many ships VN could have by now. It was canceled after the problems in the BPS-500 were found. I think that was a mistake and it reflects a lack of confidence.

C) As a consequence of those programs being canceled, VN goes back to getting Russian ships, it takes for ever to get them. The Molniya is a 40 year old design (the hull). The first batch of Gepards are quite simple, but at least are not expensive at $175 million each. The second batch of Gepards is $350 million each and the only difference is that it has a ASW package. India can build much better than that for that money, but VN is negotiating for more Gepards which means to me, more overpriced ships.

2) Vietnam doesn't have any surface ships that can be effective in a conflict with China. All these ships are so vulnerable (none of them have effective air defenses) that will have to stay in port if there is a conflict.

3) The Sigma deal gets canceled. At least the Sigmas have better combat potential than the Gepards and they were also going to be made in Vietnam with all the benefits that that brings.

4) The one ship that seems to have a good combat potential seems to be the modified Kamorta class, but all we have is rumors.

Do I feel frustrated? YES I DO.

Am I missing something here? I fail to see the wisdom of the Vietnamese surface programs and what they are trying to do. @Penguin

to me, DN-4000 is a test platform for building heavy frigate or light destroyer

Could be, but an OPV is designed according to commercial standards.

Now, to take the DN-2000 & DN-4000 and take it further by using it as a OPV with missile systems to be used in the navy as a cheap step up from coast guard vessels, but short of being an actual "real" warship, That could be a good idea. What do you think @Penguin ? That's what I was talking about earlier that the navy needs cheap OPVs that are missile armed for peacetime duties including face offs with the chinese.

 

[MKC]

Do you happen to know what the DN-4000 that Vietnam is getting for the coast guard looks like? Is it a derivative of the Holland class?

Don't know why Vietnam is buying such large & expensive ships for coast guard, even Indian coast guard doesn't have such large ships which should be biggest in world considering piracy & terrorism around India.

Thank you. This is what bothers me:

1) One mistake after another as well as plenty of bad luck in the Vietnamese program of surface vessels:

A) The debacle of the BPS-500 that had not only design problems, but was also conceived in a flawed way, it was really a bad design to begin with and it was ok to terminate the program.

B) The KBO-2000 program for a 2100 ton light frigate was actually looking pretty good and I'm not aware of any flaws in it, it actually has better weapon systems than the Gepard, a good multirole light frigate. It started in the early 90s, so imagine how many ships VN could have by now. It was canceled after the problems in the BPS-500 were found. I think that was a mistake and it reflects a lack of confidence.

C) As a consequence of those programs being canceled, VN goes back to getting Russian ships, it takes for ever to get them. The Molniya is a 40 year old design (the hull). The first batch of Gepards are quite simple, but at least are not expensive at $175 million each. The second batch of Gepards is $350 million each and the only difference is that it has a ASW package. India can build much better than that for that money, but VN is negotiating for more Gepards which means to me, more overpriced ships.

2) Vietnam doesn't have any surface ships that can be effective in a conflict with China. All these ships are so vulnerable (none of them have effective air defenses) that will have to stay in port if there is a conflict.

3) The Sigma deal gets canceled. At least the Sigmas have better combat potential than the Gepards and they were also going to be made in Vietnam with all the benefits that that brings.

4) The one ship that seems to have a good combat potential seems to be the modified Kamorta class, but all we have is rumors.

Do I feel frustrated? YES I DO.

Am I missing something here? I fail to see the wisdom of the Vietnamese surface programs and what they are trying to do. @Penguin



Could be, but an OPV is designed according to commercial standards.

Now, to take the DN-2000 & DN-4000 and take it further by using it as a OPV with missile systems to be used in the navy as a cheap step up from coast guard vessels, but short of being an actual "real" warship, That could be a good idea. What do you think @Penguin ? That's what I was talking about earlier that the navy needs cheap OPVs that are missile armed for peacetime duties including face offs with the chinese.

Include Tarantul class too, recently IN decommissioned two Tarantul class corvettes which was less than 30 years old & VPN is still building them.
VPN should transfer itself to modern ships.

 

[Carlosa]

DN 2000 - a Vietnamese designation - is used to refer the the Damen 9014 OPV (number represents length and beam). See http://www.bairdmaritime.com/index....-for-vietnam-marine-police&catid=73&Itemid=65

Supposedly DN 4000 will be 120m by 16m. However, searching on "Damen 12016" just ends you up on Damen's news page about a new line of 'gen 2' OPVs.
http://www.damen.com/en/news/2015/0...pv_to_meet_demand_for_multi_mission_platforms

That 120 x 16 OPV looks nice, but its quite different than the Vet picture of the DN-4000 so I guess it is a customized version for Vietnam.

Don't know why Vietnam is buying such large & expensive ships for coast guard, even Indian coast guard doesn't have such large ships which should be biggest in world considering piracy & terrorism around India.

Oh no, there is a very good reason called the Chinese coast guard, India does not have to deal with that. Do you remember the oil rig episode?

 

[MKC]

Oh no, there is very good reason called the Chinese coast guard, India does not have to deal with that. Do you remember the oil rig episode?

Yes, that's the big problem, actually ICG too is very small comparing threat to India.

 

[Penguin]

That 120 x 16 OPV looks nice, but its quite different than the Vet picture of the DN-4000 so I guess it is a customized version for Vietnam.

I know. Just like DN-2000 is not OPV 2400, though dimensions are similar. Just attempting to find out what - if any - the Damen desgination would be for DN-4000 (which, like DN-2000, is a Vietnamese designation).

 

[Penguin]

Thank you. This is what bothers me:

1) One mistake after another as well as plenty of bad luck in the Vietnamese program of surface vessels:

A) The debacle of the BPS-500 that had not only design problems, but was also conceived in a flawed way, it was really a bad design to begin with and it was ok to terminate the program.

B) The KBO-2000 program for a 2100 ton light frigate was actually looking pretty good and I'm not aware of any flaws in it, it actually has better weapon systems than the Gepard, a good multirole light frigate. It started in the early 90s, so imagine how many ships VN could have by now. It was canceled after the problems in the BPS-500 were found. I think that was a mistake and it reflects a lack of confidence.

C) As a consequence of those programs being canceled, VN goes back to getting Russian ships, it takes for ever to get them. The Molniya is a 40 year old design (the hull). The first batch of Gepards are quite simple, but at least are not expensive at $175 million each. The second batch of Gepards is $350 million each and the only difference is that it has a ASW package. India can build much better than that for that money, but VN is negotiating for more Gepards which means to me, more overpriced ships.

2) Vietnam doesn't have any surface ships that can be effective in a conflict with China. All these ships are so vulnerable (none of them have effective air defenses) that will have to stay in port if there is a conflict.

3) The Sigma deal gets canceled. At least the Sigmas have better combat potential than the Gepards and they were also going to be made in Vietnam with all the benefits that that brings.

4) The one ship that seems to have a good combat potential seems to be the modified Kamorta class, but all we have is rumors.

Do I feel frustrated? YES I DO.

Am I missing something here? I fail to see the wisdom of the Vietnamese surface programs and what they are trying to do. @Penguin

BPS-500: why bother with it, when there's the perfectly good Pauk ASW craft and the Molnya FAC.

KBO-2000 aka project 2100 = a Russian design
http://soha.vn/viet-nam-co-nen-tai-khoi-dong-du-an-kbo-2000-20160511114954301.htm

KBO-2000 (above) looks similar to e.g. project 12441 Novik (below), of the same era, (one of ) the first attempt for a new ships for the Russian navy post CCCP.

This plan too got scrapped (what was complete of the hull 11 years later finished as training ship). So, it wouldn't surprise me if at that time (early 1990s) it was actually a good decision.
http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=2212723
https://engineeringrussia.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/

Russian Gepard-class (light) frigates (Project 1166.1) were intended as successors to the earlier Koni-class frigates and Grisha, and Parchim-class corvettes:
Project 1166.0 (1990): Gepard I class guided missile frigate
Project 1166.1 (1993): Gepard II class guided missile frigate
Project 1166.1K (1993): Gepard III class guided missile frigate
Project 1166.1E (2007): Gepard IV class guided missile frigate
Project 1166.2 (???): Gepard V class guided missile frigate design
Project 1166.3 (???): Gepard VI class guided missile frigate design

The Gepard class was designed from the outset as a lightweight, inexpensive export vessel. The Russians have offered five variants for foreign sale, including Gepard-3.2, Gepard-3.9, Gepard-5.1, Gepard-5.3. Quite convoluted.

Did the Sigma deal actually get cancelled? If so, why was Damen back last february with its Sigma-9814model at the 2016 Vietship exhibition? KBO-2000 has nothing over Sigma 9814, imho....

How realistic is the expectation of a P28 variant, with almost equal firepower of a Kolkata class (P15A)? Just missing 2 AK630s, 8 less Brahmos, 1 less helicopter and traded in RBUs for 8 Brahmos. Why is not the IN acquiring this, assuming lower cost than P15A?

I still believe Vietnamese surface ships, like eg Pakistan, are mainly for ASW. The key antiship firepower is from air and subsurface. Having surface platforms anyway, one might as well also give them some SSMs, just to add some complexity for an opponent. Without a dedicated AAW ship and operating in group, any lone small ships will be sitting ducks for a dedicated, committed Chinese surface force.

 

[Carlosa]

BPS-500: why bother with it, when there's the perfectly good Pauk ASW craft and the Molnya FAC.

KBO-2000 aka project 2100 = a Russian design
http://soha.vn/viet-nam-co-nen-tai-khoi-dong-du-an-kbo-2000-20160511114954301.htm

KBO-2000 (above) looks similar to e.g. project 12441 Novik (below), of the same era, (one of ) the first attempt for a new ships for the Russian navy post CCCP.

This plan too got scrapped (what was complete of the hull 11 years later finished as training ship). So, it wouldn't surprise me if at that time (early 1990s) it was actually a good decision.
http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=2212723
https://engineeringrussia.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/

Russian Gepard-class (light) frigates (Project 1166.1) were intended as successors to the earlier Koni-class frigates and Grisha, and Parchim-class corvettes:
Project 1166.0 (1990): Gepard I class guided missile frigate
Project 1166.1 (1993): Gepard II class guided missile frigate
Project 1166.1K (1993): Gepard III class guided missile frigate
Project 1166.1E (2007): Gepard IV class guided missile frigate
Project 1166.2 (???): Gepard V class guided missile frigate design
Project 1166.3 (???): Gepard VI class guided missile frigate design

The Gepard class was designed from the outset as a lightweight, inexpensive export vessel. The Russians have offered five variants for foreign sale, including Gepard-3.2, Gepard-3.9, Gepard-5.1, Gepard-5.3. Quite convoluted.

Did the Sigma deal actually get cancelled? If so, why was Damen back last february with its Sigma-9814model at the 2016 Vietship exhibition? KBO-2000 has nothing over Sigma 9814, imho....

How realistic is the expectation of a P28 variant, with almost equal firepower of a Kolkata class (P15A)? Just missing 2 AK630s, 8 less Brahmos, 1 less helicopter and traded in RBUs for 8 Brahmos. Why is not the IN acquiring this, assuming lower cost than P15A?

I still believe Vietnamese surface ships, like eg Pakistan, are mainly for ASW. The key antiship firepower is from air and subsurface. Having surface platforms anyway, one might as well also give them some SSMs, just to add some complexity for an opponent. Without a dedicated AAW ship and operating in group, any lone small ships will be sitting ducks for a dedicated, committed Chinese surface force.

What we are hearing in VN lately is that the Sigma deal is dead, but nobody says why.

The P28 rumor started in May 2012 and it came from high level sources in the navy, still, nothing else was heard until this article that just came out in India, but some of the Indian members here that have connections confirmed to us in the past that, indeed that is one of the platforms that are under negotiation; why is moving so slow, I don't know, or why VN wants to keep going with Gepards when such a P28 version gives more bang for the money? I don't know.

I also believe that the key in anti ship power is subs and air power, particularly with supersonic and later hypersonic missiles. Until lasers become operational, missiles have the upper hand over ships, there is no ship whose defenses can't be saturated with missiles. Only a US carrier group have defense in depth that can mitigate such issues.

Furthermore, now that the chinese have naval bases and 3 large air bases in the Spratlys, I fail to see how any Vietnamese surface force can do anything at all in a conflict other than staying in port or in the littoral waters.

That's why I advocate for VN to have the right ships with respect to the threat that it faces and I give top priority to subs and a large coast guard and what I call missile armed OPVs.

BPS-500: why bother with it, when there's the perfectly good Pauk ASW craft and the Molnya FAC..

I was talking about BPS-500 as a historical thing only, that ship was a very bad idea.

KBO-2000 aka project 2100 = a Russian design
http://soha.vn/viet-nam-co-nen-tai-khoi-dong-du-an-kbo-2000-20160511114954301.htm.

I think the KBO-2000 project was quite ok for VN for that time period, it would be a bit dated now, but for the early 90s, not too bad.

On Sigma 9814 for VIetnam from 23/02/2016
http://soha.vn/quan-su/bat-ngo-viet-nam-se-som-dong-tau-ho-ve-ten-lua-sigma-20160223150532797.htm

Translation:

Surprise: Vietnam will soon ship missile protector Sigma?
Binh Nguyen | 23/02/2016 19:30

At the upcoming 2016 Vietship opening tomorrow, Damen has exhibited models missile escort vessel Sigma-9814. Is affordable Vietnam has decided to close these vessels?
Sigma missile escort vessel continued to be exhibited

Are witnessing the expert group members of Damen Group (Netherlands) directly meticulously prepared each li by little to perfection booth, we see just how professional they are.

Although there are quite a team assisting Vietnam, but the "Mr. West, her dress" was directly involved in most things to be ready for the exhibition is opening tomorrow (24.02.2016 ) at the National Convention Center (Hanoi).

The most interesting is to see the "Westerner" directly held vacuum cleaner toilet every corner of the booth, and then took a cloth each sash to them becoming clear, make the models glow flashed , attracting all glances.

Two of the models will probably be many visitors to sample most interest is the missile escort vessel and the vessel Coast Guard Sigma DN-2000 number 8002, because we have and will make the power of the Navy Vietnam and the maritime law enforcement forces.

In particular, Sigma-9814 is placed in the most prominent place, right in the aisles and is the first point of access for all visitors.

Thus, once again escort vessel named Sigma-9814 Vietnam flag to be displayed and be cared thoroughly by Dutch experts. That speaks only to find that the sample mark Sigma is in Vietnam and because Vietnam or not?

Obviously, the Damen Group and members from the Netherlands to participate in this exhibition very much expect a bright outlook and desire to not only 2 but could be more but the rocket ship Sigma Guardians stand Navy squad in Vietnam.

The last configuration has been selected?

Unlike previous times Exhibition (Vietship 2014), exhibited simultaneously Damen 2 model ship missile protector Sigma-9814, including one sample with a sample containing the remaining helicopters and no, this was just typical Damen 1 single presentation template container ships with helicopters.

If this is the last sample has been selected? It is difficult to assert this right when both Vietnam and the Netherlands still no official statement.

Still, we can be satisfied with the configuration of the missile escort vessel modern helicopter hangars. Because, it will provide adequate conditions for helicopter operations following organic patrol boats, long days at sea warfare.

There are brothels will help limit the effects of weather, the salt spray from the sea, which has enormous influence on the longevity and reliability of the helicopter, with this new effort to save the team ensure aeronautical engineering.

Compared to ship samples Sigma-9814 has exhibited publicly Vietnam 2 years ago, basically everything nothing changed much, still is:

- The ship is designed to shorten modular maximum building construction process. Stealth capabilities of ships is still strong with low superstructure, is calculated to reduce radar reflection area.

- Ships with size (length x width x waterline): 99.91 x 14.02 x 3.75m, 2,150 tons displacement, 103 detonators sailors.

- Firepower of Sigma 9814 includes anti-ship missiles 8 Exocet MM40 Block III subsonic (range 180km) on 2 launchers, arranged in the middle of the ship; Oto Melara main gun 76,2mm; missile vertical launch Mica-M VL-advanced, with 2 guns MARLIN-WS.

This is the most advanced weapons that the West's supply partners are France and Italy, the Netherlands (represented by Damen) is just a general contractor, is responsible to integrate and install them onto the ship Sigma.

9814 Sigma's heart lies in the central command system Tacticos by Thales (France) development.

The system can synchronize signals, fire commanders throughout the ship, from radar SMART-S Mk2 looked round (250 km-range reconnaissance, tracking 500 targets at once) to the anti-ship missile system, non, torpedoes, artillery and decoys and electronic jamming.

In addition, Sigma Vietnam can be fitted B515 launchers to fire anti-ship torpedoes types EuroTorp Modern Mode II 3A 244S / MU 90.

It is not clear vessel can be installed consortium submarine weaponry positioning active / passive Thales UMS 4132 Kingklip onboard or not, but the model exhibited at Vietship 2016, 9814 Sigma can fully equipped with the combinations of weapons, modern weapons.

In a separate incident, according to the Data Transfer 2015 world weapons SIPRI (Institute for International Peace Studies Stockholm) has recently updated Thursday 2.21, Sigma-9814 ships listed Vietnam ordered from the Netherlands signed in 2013.

But wait and see because anyway Sigma-9814 though marginally better rates than some other vessel form, but clearly "money, will persist".

Don't think too much about articles like that in the Vietnamese press, the authors look for some reason, day and day, to justify an article, they make some money every time an article gets published, so they come up with all sort of reasons to keep putting up articles, they are usually not reliable at all and often make up things, they read PDF and if we say something interesting, they put up an article next day, we are used to them here.

I still believe Vietnamese surface ships, like eg Pakistan, are mainly for ASW. .

That's the way it should be and that brings the point of how come the first modern ASW ships in the Vietnamese navy are going to be the second batch of Gepard ships. That's one of the reasons why I feel that the procurement of ships and ship choices in Vietnam don't make much sense, they don't get the type of ships that are actually needed.

The Gepard class was designed from the outset as a lightweight, inexpensive export vessel. The Russians have offered five variants for foreign sale, including Gepard-3.2, Gepard-3.9, Gepard-5.1, Gepard-5.3. Quite convoluted..

I agree and the first batch of Gepard at $175 million each, lives up to that even that the price is 10 years old, but the second batch at $350 million each, I feel is overpriced and not worth it for such a ship.

At least the Sigma, for a similar price will give you a much better air defense with Mica, a better radar with Smart S-MK2, Tacticos CMS, an actual hangar and better sensors overall. What I don't like in Sigma is the expensive French missiles. A Sigma integrated with KH-35 and Barak 8 would be more cost effective and more powerful. Actually, I'm a bit surprised that VN didn't ask for that.

 

[Carlosa]

Similar, for different agency, with reinforced bow.

Actually, the KN-781 is a modified version of the DN-2000, it has a hangar, something that the coast guard DN-2000 does not have. This is an step up over the first DN-2000 version.

 

[MKC]

How realistic is the expectation of a P28 variant, with almost equal firepower of a Kolkata class (P15A)? Just missing 2 AK630s, 8 less Brahmos, 1 less helicopter and traded in RBUs for 8 Brahmos. Why is not the IN acquiring this, assuming lower cost than P15A?

Now compare firepower of Kolkata class with similar ships of other nations, then you can know P15A too doesn't have much firepower.
Comparing P28 with P15A
2 vs 4 AK-630
8 BrahMos(if possible) otherwise any small SSM(Kh-35) vs 2 RBU
0 vs 16 BrahMos
16/32 Barak 1/Maitri/MICA vs 32 Barak 8
1 vs 2 Helicopters

Now P28(3400 tonnes) vs Talwar-class(4035 tonnes)

2 vs 1 AK-630
1 RBU vs 8 BrahMos(if possible) otherwise any small SSM(Kh-35)
0 vs 8 BrahMos
16/32 Barak 1/Maitri/MICA vs 24 Shtil-1 + 8 Igla-1E
1 vs 1 Helicopters
Actually, we are considering a better F22P Zulfiquar-class frigates(3150 tonnes) cost $175 million
Armament:

• 1 × 76.2 mm calibre AK–176M main gun
• Type 730B CIWS (2 × 30 mm 7-barrel Gatling guns)
• 1 × 8-cell FM-90N SAM launcher
• 2 × 4-cell C-802 SSM launchers
• 2 × 3-cell ET-52C torpedo launchers
• 2 × 6-cell RDC-32 anti-submarine rockets

Aircraft carried: 1 × Harbin Z-9EC ASW helicopter
In this case, we are exchanging RBU with better SAM & C-802 with VLS BrahMos(if possible)/Kh-35 as it is bigger than F22P.
What are your views on this?
I think in that case it can carry 16 VLS Kh-35(Kora-class have 16) but that is not requirement.

The P28 rumor started in May 2012 and it came from high level sources in the navy, still, nothing else was heard until this article that just came out in India, but some of the Indian members here that have connections confirmed to us in the past that, indeed that is one of the platforms that are under negotiation; why is moving so slow, I don't know, or why VN wants to keep going with Gepards when such a P28 version gives more bang for the money? I don't know.

I thought this source is not from India otherwise we might have seen it on other Indian forum.
If this is from India it would have been called corvette.

I agree and the first batch of Gepard at $175 million each, lives up to that even that the price is 10 years old, but the second batch at $350 million each, I feel is overpriced and not worth it for such a ship.

At least the Sigma, for a similar price will give you a much better air defense with Mica, a better radar with Smart S-MK2, Tacticos CMS, an actual hangar and better sensors overall. What I don't like in Sigma is the expensive French missiles. A Sigma integrated with KH-35 and Barak 8 would be more cost effective and more powerful. Actually, I'm a bit surprised that VN didn't ask for that.

At least Sigma is better than Gepards.

 

[Carlosa]

Include Tarantul class too, recently IN decommissioned two Tarantul class corvettes which was less than 30 years old & VPN is still building them.
VPN should transfer itself to modern ships.

I know, that's why I say that is very frustrating to see VN building a 40 year old hull when everybody else is building stealth ships. There are many sources available, its not necessary to buy old designs like that just because they are Russian. Other countries, including India, can offer better designs, but so far is all Russian.

Now compare firepower of Kolkata class with similar ships of other nations, then you can know P15A too doesn't have much firepower.
Comparing P28 with P15A
2 vs 4 AK-630
8 BrahMos(if possible) otherwise any small SSM(Kh-35) vs 2 RBU
0 vs 16 BrahMos
16/32 Barak 1/Maitri/MICA vs 32 Barak 8
1 vs 2 Helicopters

Now P28(3400 tonnes) vs Talwar-class(4035 tonnes)

2 vs 1 AK-630
1 RBU vs 8 BrahMos(if possible) otherwise any small SSM(Kh-35)
0 vs 8 BrahMos
16/32 Barak 1/Maitri/MICA vs 24 Shtil-1 + 8 Igla-1E
1 vs 1 Helicopters
Actually, we are considering a better F22P Zulfiquar-class frigates(3150 tonnes) cost $175 million
Armament:

• 1 × 76.2 mm calibre AK–176M main gun
• Type 730B CIWS (2 × 30 mm 7-barrel Gatling guns)
• 1 × 8-cell FM-90N SAM launcher
• 2 × 4-cell C-802 SSM launchers
• 2 × 3-cell ET-52C torpedo launchers
• 2 × 6-cell RDC-32 anti-submarine rockets

Aircraft carried: 1 × Harbin Z-9EC ASW helicopter
In this case, we are exchanging RBU with better SAM & C-802 with VLS BrahMos(if possible)/Kh-35 as it is bigger than F22P.
What are your views on this?
I think in that case it can carry 16 VLS Kh-35(Kora-class have 16) but that is not requirement.

I thought this source is not from India otherwise we might have seen it on other Indian forum.
If this is from India it would have been called corvette.

At least Sigma is better than Gepards.

I think that's a balanced ship. In the end, it all depends on how India is going to use it and against what threat.
The Indian ocean is an Indian lake for now, so India can afford to have ships that are kind of light in terms of firepower. Off course that situation can change in the future.

I also think that some of the reasons for light weapon systems in certain cases such as Kolkata class and Kamorta is because they are saving space for future missiles systems that will be available later like Barak 8 in the case of P28 and Nirbhay for Kolkata.

At least Sigma is better than Gepards.

Yes, but the Sigma got canceled and they want to get more Gepards. You see? I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

 

[Penguin]

Don't know why Vietnam is buying such large & expensive ships for coast guard, even Indian coast guard doesn't have such large ships which should be biggest in world considering piracy & terrorism around India.

Samarth-class = 2400 tons = same as DN-2000
Samar-class = 2300 ton

Bigger ship > greater range and endurance and better seakeeping.
See SCS distances.

 

[MKC]

Samarth-class = 2400 tons = same as DN-2000
Samar-class = 2300 ton

Bigger ship > greater range and endurance and better seakeeping.
See SCS distances.

I thought discussion was about DN 4000 & Holland-class OPV.
Both Samarth-class & Samar-class have range more than 6000 nmi which can be average than what is use of much bigger & too many such ships when you have limited budget.
Ships like Samarth-class can be good but don't know why CG should have ships like DN 4000.
You know VCG doesn't need more range than 6000 nmi & you aren't going to fight with CG ships as you are not going to put any offensive weapon on them.
Talking about 10x DN 4000(4000 tonnes), 9x DN 2000(2500 tonnes)