Turkish Air Defence Programs

[monitor]

Cancellation of S-400 is not on agenda in this phase. PAC-3 must be the bargain tool of US for F-35 delivery. It seems Turkey accepts PAC missiles (If accepts) not to danger delivery of F-35.

So is it mean if you want to get F-35 you have buy PAC-3 too unless you cancel S-400 deal ?
or total cancellation of S-300 deal to get F-35 and PAC-3 ?

 

[xbat]

I dont think any possibility to have both American and Russian systems, we can say goodbye to s400, it was a political choice . Turkey couldnt get Chinese system in the past. how come can do it this time? while Americans offers their best(!) ?

 

[kartal1]

To all the readers! The important word here is "Possible Foreign Miltitary Sale". That means that they have cleared the way in case Turkey decides to acquire US Patriot systems. That deesn't mean in any way that the S400 deal is over or anything like that.

 

[monitor]

Turkey plans to buy both Russian and U.S. missile systems - Bloomberg
Turkey is also planning to go ahead with a previously negotiated purchase of S-400 systems from Russia even if the U.S. decides to sell the Patriot batteries, two Turkish government officials familiar with the country’s defence policy told Bloomberg on Wednesday.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov also said on Wednesday that the sales of U:S. made and Russian missile defence systems should be seen separate from each other and that Russia was already in the process of fulfilling the terms of a deal to supply Ankara with the S-400s, Reuters reported .

The U.S. State Department on Tuesday approved the sale of a $3.5 billion Patriot missile defence system to Turkey, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency reported, putting in place a potential replacement for Ankara’s controversial order of Russia’s S-400 system.

The approved deal would include 80 Patriot MIM-104E Guidance Enhanced and 60 PAC-3 Missile Segment Enhancement missiles, along with associated equipment. The Patriot, an acronym for Phased Array Tracking Radar Intercept On Target, is made by Massachusetts-based defence contractor Raytheon.

Turkey has twice passed over the Patriot — in 2013 when it chose a Chinese system it later dropped, and in 2017 when it finalized the S-400 deal with Moscow. In both cases, Turkey insisted on a transfer of missile technology, something the U.S. declined to do, reported Defense News, adding that it was as yet unclear whether this deal included any tech transfer.

The State Department said earlier this year it was working with Turkey on the possible sale of a Patriot system to keep it from buying a Russian-made S-400 system. Pentagon officials have said Turkey, a NATO member, cannot be allowed to plug Russia’s S-400 weaponry into allied systems, such as integrating it with the U.S. military’s F-35 fighter jets.

An unnamed U.S. official told Steven Cook, senior fellow for Middle East and Africa studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, that the new deal is contingent on Turkey cancelling its S-400 order. “I’m told that if S-400 sale goes through, Patriot deal would be cancelled and sanctions imposed,” Cook tweeted after the deal was announced.

Congress has 15 days to reject the sale via a joint resolution, not much time given the approaching U.S. holidays. Also, as per State and Defense Department procedures, the relevant Senate and House committees have already had an opportunity to review the deal, and allowed it to go through.

The proposed sale appears to put Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in a bind. Cancelling the S-400 order could imperil the ongoing Turkey-Russia rapprochement. On the other hand, if Ankara goes ahead with the Russian system when there is a NATO system available, it suggests Turkey wants out of NATO.

Turkey’s leader could point out that the S-400 is less costly, but he is no longer able to argue that his NATO allies failed to offer a proven and effective system, one deployed in the past on Turkey’s border with Syria, in Adana, Gaziantep, and Karamanmaraş.

This proposed sale will contribute to the national security of the United States by improving the security of a key NATO ally on the front lines of the fight against terrorism, said the DSCA, adding that Turkey is an essential element in Washington’s strategy against great powers in Europe and the Middle East.

“Turkey will use Patriot to improve its missile defense capability, defend its territorial integrity, and deter regional threats,” said the DSCA report. “The proposed sale will increase the defensive capabilities of the Turkey military to guard against hostile aggression and shield NATO Allies who might train and operate within Turkey's borders.”

 

[era_shield]

Probably both deals will go ahead but US will pay a large chunk of the S-400 cost (indirectly, by reducing the cost of the Patriots), and be allowed to secretly examine it. But I expect Russia will expect this and renege on the deal. Overall, good outcome for Turkey no matter what happens.

 

[UkroTurk]

Cancelled S400 deal would never harm Turkish Russian relationship , The reason is there are other more strategic projects with them. For instance Turkakim pipeline and Akkuyu nuclear plant.


Undoubtedly Turkey won't reject the missiles whose invoice was already paid.
S400s are us
I would like blockers of aerospace of the Aegean sea to recall that The responsibility of the FIR on the Aegean Sea was determined during a meeting organized by ICAO in Istanbul in 1950 and according to this regulation, the aircraft flying over the Aegean has to give the information to Athens during the flight and inform the Istanbul of this information only after entering Turkish territorial waters. The meeting was held in Paris in 1952.

Turkey plans to buy both Russian and U.S. missile systems - Bloomberg
Turkey is also planning to go ahead with a previously negotiated purchase of S-400 systems from Russia even if the U.S. decides to sell the Patriot batteries, two Turkish government officials familiar with the country’s defence policy told Bloomberg on Wednesday.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov also said on Wednesday that the sales of U:S. made and Russian missile defence systems should be seen separate from each other and that Russia was already in the process of fulfilling the terms of a deal to supply Ankara with the S-400s, Reuters reported .

The U.S. State Department on Tuesday approved the sale of a $3.5 billion Patriot missile defence system to Turkey, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency reported, putting in place a potential replacement for Ankara’s controversial order of Russia’s S-400 system.

The approved deal would include 80 Patriot MIM-104E Guidance Enhanced and 60 PAC-3 Missile Segment Enhancement missiles, along with associated equipment. The Patriot, an acronym for Phased Array Tracking Radar Intercept On Target, is made by Massachusetts-based defence contractor Raytheon.

Turkey has twice passed over the Patriot — in 2013 when it chose a Chinese system it later dropped, and in 2017 when it finalized the S-400 deal with Moscow. In both cases, Turkey insisted on a transfer of missile technology, something the U.S. declined to do, reported Defense News, adding that it was as yet unclear whether this deal included any tech transfer.

The State Department said earlier this year it was working with Turkey on the possible sale of a Patriot system to keep it from buying a Russian-made S-400 system. Pentagon officials have said Turkey, a NATO member, cannot be allowed to plug Russia’s S-400 weaponry into allied systems, such as integrating it with the U.S. military’s F-35 fighter jets.

An unnamed U.S. official told Steven Cook, senior fellow for Middle East and Africa studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, that the new deal is contingent on Turkey cancelling its S-400 order. “I’m told that if S-400 sale goes through, Patriot deal would be cancelled and sanctions imposed,” Cook tweeted after the deal was announced.

Congress has 15 days to reject the sale via a joint resolution, not much time given the approaching U.S. holidays. Also, as per State and Defense Department procedures, the relevant Senate and House committees have already had an opportunity to review the deal, and allowed it to go through.

The proposed sale appears to put Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in a bind. Cancelling the S-400 order could imperil the ongoing Turkey-Russia rapprochement. On the other hand, if Ankara goes ahead with the Russian system when there is a NATO system available, it suggests Turkey wants out of NATO.

Turkey’s leader could point out that the S-400 is less costly, but he is no longer able to argue that his NATO allies failed to offer a proven and effective system, one deployed in the past on Turkey’s border with Syria, in Adana, Gaziantep, and Karamanmaraş.

This proposed sale will contribute to the national security of the United States by improving the security of a key NATO ally on the front lines of the fight against terrorism, said the DSCA, adding that Turkey is an essential element in Washington’s strategy against great powers in Europe and the Middle East.

“Turkey will use Patriot to improve its missile defense capability, defend its territorial integrity, and deter regional threats,” said the DSCA report. “The proposed sale will increase the defensive capabilities of the Turkey military to guard against hostile aggression and shield NATO Allies who might train and operate within Turkey's borders.”

There is a formidable threat about s400 accepting this statement is from authorized mouths.
There is no technology transfer or share????

 

[monitor]

Cancelled S400 deal would never harm Turkish Russian relationship , The reason is there are other more strategic projects with them. For instance Turkakim pipeline and Akkuyu nuclear plant.


Undoubtedly Turkey won't reject the missiles whose invoice was already paid.
S400s are us
I would like blockers of aerospace of the Aegean sea to recall that The responsibility of the FIR on the Aegean Sea was determined during a meeting organized by ICAO in Istanbul in 1950 and according to this regulation, the aircraft flying over the Aegean has to give the information to Athens during the flight and inform the Istanbul of this information only after entering Turkish territorial waters. The meeting was held in Paris in 1952.


There is a formidable threat about s400 accepting this statement is from authorized mouths.
There is no technology transfer or share????

From this threats I think better cancel S-400 deal as not TOT was coming if I am not wrong. US is unlikely to provide any significant tot either but by improving relation with US you can expect some help for indigenous Air defense program. With rapidly changing geo political situation turkey can't afford making us as enemy.

 

[UkroTurk]

According to France 24 " Trump plans to withdraw US soldiers from Syria ( including ypg territory (". Withdrawal might be reward or recompensation of Patriots , furthermore for cancellation of S400s
Therefor Russians would be satisfied with Syria without Americans so that Russians would overlook cancellation of s400.

 

[Malpsoy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1075393874925891584

https://twitter.com/x/status/1075394179663085570

 

[Oublious]

S400 cancel is impossible, we have al ready paid deposit. Stop spreading false news.

 

[ANMDT]

Just asking out of nowhere,
Does it sound legit to purchase anything from US after seeing how could they block delivery of our own F35s ?
Or seeing how they could become an "ally" by arming a terrorist groups right on our borders?
Or seeing how they are providing intelligence to all terrorists groups for sake of causing casualties to us?
It doesnt make sense no matter what is the reason, at some point we might face " do this, that or we are not delivering the weapons you have paid for,because somehow the congress we have full authority over, a puppet congress is not allowing us to do so?"
We have seen this play for once, we shouldnt fall for second one

 

[UkroTurk]

people claiming audociously "there is no cancellation" are as reliable as who claim s400 was cancelled. Thought I haven't read any commentary stating Turkey wont buy S400.

Why they wouldn't have warned us about Turkey was going to buy Patriot three days ago? They should have known this extraordinary situation.But they didn't.

 

[Bismarck]

Turkey plans to buy both Russian and U.S. missile systems - Bloomberg
Turkey is also planning to go ahead with a previously negotiated purchase of S-400 systems from Russia even if the U.S. decides to sell the Patriot batteries, two Turkish government officials familiar with the country’s defence policy told Bloomberg on Wednesday.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov also said on Wednesday that the sales of U:S. made and Russian missile defence systems should be seen separate from each other and that Russia was already in the process of fulfilling the terms of a deal to supply Ankara with the S-400s, Reuters reported .

The U.S. State Department on Tuesday approved the sale of a $3.5 billion Patriot missile defence system to Turkey, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency reported, putting in place a potential replacement for Ankara’s controversial order of Russia’s S-400 system.

The approved deal would include 80 Patriot MIM-104E Guidance Enhanced and 60 PAC-3 Missile Segment Enhancement missiles, along with associated equipment. The Patriot, an acronym for Phased Array Tracking Radar Intercept On Target, is made by Massachusetts-based defence contractor Raytheon.

Turkey has twice passed over the Patriot — in 2013 when it chose a Chinese system it later dropped, and in 2017 when it finalized the S-400 deal with Moscow. In both cases, Turkey insisted on a transfer of missile technology, something the U.S. declined to do, reported Defense News, adding that it was as yet unclear whether this deal included any tech transfer.

The State Department said earlier this year it was working with Turkey on the possible sale of a Patriot system to keep it from buying a Russian-made S-400 system. Pentagon officials have said Turkey, a NATO member, cannot be allowed to plug Russia’s S-400 weaponry into allied systems, such as integrating it with the U.S. military’s F-35 fighter jets.

An unnamed U.S. official told Steven Cook, senior fellow for Middle East and Africa studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, that the new deal is contingent on Turkey cancelling its S-400 order. “I’m told that if S-400 sale goes through, Patriot deal would be cancelled and sanctions imposed,” Cook tweeted after the deal was announced.

Congress has 15 days to reject the sale via a joint resolution, not much time given the approaching U.S. holidays. Also, as per State and Defense Department procedures, the relevant Senate and House committees have already had an opportunity to review the deal, and allowed it to go through.

The proposed sale appears to put Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in a bind. Cancelling the S-400 order could imperil the ongoing Turkey-Russia rapprochement. On the other hand, if Ankara goes ahead with the Russian system when there is a NATO system available, it suggests Turkey wants out of NATO.

Turkey’s leader could point out that the S-400 is less costly, but he is no longer able to argue that his NATO allies failed to offer a proven and effective system, one deployed in the past on Turkey’s border with Syria, in Adana, Gaziantep, and Karamanmaraş.

This proposed sale will contribute to the national security of the United States by improving the security of a key NATO ally on the front lines of the fight against terrorism, said the DSCA, adding that Turkey is an essential element in Washington’s strategy against great powers in Europe and the Middle East.

“Turkey will use Patriot to improve its missile defense capability, defend its territorial integrity, and deter regional threats,” said the DSCA report. “The proposed sale will increase the defensive capabilities of the Turkey military to guard against hostile aggression and shield NATO Allies who might train and operate within Turkey's borders.”

Any ToT?

 

[monitor]

Any ToT?

They were denied regarding tot earlier so whither they offer any tot now not known .

 

[Damir877]

I don't think at this stage cancelling of S-400 deal is even possible,what about the deposit,not to mention Turkey would look as a very unserious and unreliable partner by everyone in any future dealings.
Even if the Patriot comes with some ToT(which i doubt) it would be very limited and not worthy,considering Turkey already signed cooperation with Eurosam and will hopefully be able to get much better deal when it comes to air defense technology transfer then it would ever get from US.