Turk-Russian Approach: Russia is ready to offer joint production of Su-57 fighters to Ankara

[MMM-E]

Rubbish comparison - filled with baseless set-of-assumptions.

SU-57 is better than F-35 for air to air combat
but F-35 is better than SU-57 for air to ground mission ( btw SU-57 has superior weapons like supersonic cruise missiles .. F-35 has subsonic cruise missiles )


Russians develops SU-57 against F-22

and Russians says that SU-57 sensor suite which includes N036L-1 L-band radar arrays will alert its pilots to the general vicinity of enemy fifth generation stealth fighters such as F-35

However the L-band radar part of the N036 BYELKA radar suite narrows the search area down so that the SU-57 can scan a smaller volume of space with its X-band N036-1 and N036B-1 AESA apertures.
The radar is further augmented with the 101KS electro optical targeting system and the L402 electronic countermeasure suite, which would help further refine a track from the L-band radar
The idea is that a focused search by the jet’s other sensors would result in a weapons quality track to engage a 5th generation fighter such as F-35 and F-22

If the technique works, the Russians will have negated the F-35's stealth

 

[CAN_TR]

Comparing F-35 a Multirole fighter which is designed to perform ground-attacks with SU-57 an air superiority fighter which is designed to fight F-22 like aircrafts, makes sense.

I'm asking you guys again what was the Turkish Airforce looking for?

 

[LeGenD]

Comparing F-35 a Multirole fighter which is designed to perform ground-attacks with SU-57 an air superiority fighter which is designed to fight F-22 like aircrafts, makes sense.

I'm asking you guys again what was the Turkish Airforce looking for?

Terms like multi-role and air-superiority are meaningless in a comparison between completely different class of birds (F-22A and F-35 variants) and Russian Su-57.

Su-57 is an impressive bird in its own right but some members are taking things a bit far, and mistakenly assume that Russia is a peer of US in the matters of defense and R&D in general.

Very good read: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...k-six-features-we-like-on-russias-new-fighter

But

"But is it an F-22? No, it isn't.

And that's the problem—clearly it isn't meant to be. Yet it seems Russian officials and the Russian press constantly make claims otherwise. That's like claiming a Super Hornet is as capable in certain respects as an F-35, it simply isn't accurate and it's not really a fair comparison to make in the first place.

Above all else, you have to give the Russians some credit for taking new risks with their design and incorporating innovative concepts into it, even if doing so came as a result of lacking critical low observable design knowledge and manufacturing capabilities."

F-15 variants and Su-35S are 'air superiority' birds as well, but an F-35 will make short work of either in a battlespace.

---

It is foolish to expect marvels of engineering from Russia in the light of its economic situation and R&D spending. Common sense.

 

[MMM-E]

I'm asking you guys again what was the Turkish Airforce looking for?

the Turkish Airforce needs air superiority capabilities in Aegean and in the Eastern Mediterranean against Greece,Israel and Egypt

We can not use American control F-35s against the US backed Israel,Greece,Egypt alliance and We can not wait for the TF-X squadron until 2035

Turkish Air Force today fields a sizeable light fighter fleet with F-16 multirole platforms

and SU-57 heavy platform would provide Turkey with the most capable air superiority fighter in the Middle East and Europe .... ( SU-57 can beat Greek F-16V , Egyptian Rafale and Israeli F-15 , F-35 in air to air combat )

also SU-57 has capable air to ground attack capability
also Turkish Airforce F-16s with SOM Cruise Missiles + SOJ stand off Jammer Aircrafts + E7-T AEWCs have great strike capability
also Turkey develops MIUS stealth UCAV to carry SOM Cruise Missile for SEAD - DEAD role

even without F-35, still the Turkish Armed Forces will have great stike capability to hit every target in the region

-- 280km KHAN Tactical Ballistic Missile
-- 1.000 km BORA Ballistic Missile
-- 220+ km ATMACA Naval strike Missile ( land attack/anti ship capability )
-- 800 km GEZGIN land and naval based Cruise Missile
-- 300 km SOM air launched Cruise Missile

so Turkish control SU-57 could be the ideal platform for Turkish Airforce

and Turkish design cockpit , electronics , mission computer , IFF system , self protection electronic warfare suite , national data link , network centric warfare and weapons can make SU-57 more dangerous under the control of crazy talented and well trained Turkish Pilots

 

[Nevsky]

Quite unlikely IMO. Maybe if Turkey leave NATO and sign some treaty like the Hünkâr İskelesi one, than I guess its possible to see such a level of cooperation. But I can't see it happening while you host US nukes.

 

[MMM-E]

Quite unlikely IMO. Maybe if Turkey leave NATO and sign some treaty like the Hünkâr İskelesi one, than I guess its possible to see such a level of cooperation. But I can't see it happening while you host US nukes.

PUTIN is so smart and its possible to see such a level of cooperation


-- Russians wants to use Turkey's soft power for export Russian weapons to Islamic World

-- Russia so happy for selling weapons to one of the strongest NATO member Turkey ( that will be the prestige and advertising for Russia )

and Turkey can help Russia in top class electro-optics for Russian platforms
even Turkey can help Russia for UAV-UCAV technology

-- Turkey can play key role for Russia's security interests in Caucasia and Black Sea ( there are over 22 millions of muslim population in Russia and most of them are Turkic People ... and Turkey control Bosphorus , only gateway to the Black Sea for the US/NATO )

-- PUTIN replaced Ukraine with Turkey for Russia's energy security .. ( Turkstream gas pipeline )

-- Russia invest $22 billion to build the first Nuclear Power Plant in Turkey

-- Russia - Turkey are together working in Syria

-- Russia wants to make Turkey more stronger in the Eastern Mediterranean against the US-the EU-Israel alliance in natural gas race because of Russian national interests

win-win strategy

 

[My-Analogous]

lol and why would china do that? The only real trouble they have is with engines so all they would need is russia. Because china and Pakistan is close does not mean they will ever trust turks. Russiaa and India was close, did that make china any closer to india? No, so forget about it

You are living in changing world and you should accept the unaccepted. If this alliance created then it will be NATO of east with three nuclear states and four very capable fighters counties. Turkey is part of NATO and that means against Russia and now look where Turkey is? So my plan is also acceptable base on current situation

 

[cabatli_53]

 

[IblinI]

@Mithridates

Tagging you, my friend.


GaAs and GaN are useless parameters to highlight - what does this even prove? This sounds familiar actually - all those mouth-watering marketing terms you read on the box of a shiny new motherboard...

Refer to this post: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-1...ce-f16-as-top-jet.610973/page-8#post-11327299

Russians consider 3m^2 RCS as the standard reference point to highlight detection power of their radar systems on brochures for the public.

A (decent) airborne AWACS system is likely to pick on a jet fighter having an RCS in the 0.1 - 1.0m^2 range at around 200 KM mark.

RCS TABLE FOR REFERENCE

Ever seen the radome of a modern AWACS system? massive to say the least. Think about how many T/R modules it would be packing within.

N036 has RCS of 1 at 400km? NOT EVEN CLOSE

"Compared to previous Russian radars, the N036 will likely be more capable in most aspects – that’s what you get from an AESA radar. However, this is an area where Russia is significantly lagging behind the West. Till date there’s not a single operational AESA radar on any Russian aircraft despite Russian manufacturers marketing their AESA radars from over a decade now. Even the latest Mig-35s that were sold to Egypt actually had Zhuk-ME MSA radars. This clearly shows Russia’s lack of maturation in AESA radars.

I’ve seen people confusing Su-57’s side-looking arrays (N036B-1-01) with the main (N036) front radar and considering them as a single radar, which they are not. The X band side-looking arrays have a different Field of view with respect to the front radar, except maybe a negligible overlap. Therefore, you can’t actually “fuse” data from all 3 radars as they can’t see the same target at the same time. Sure, the data from all 3 arrays are likely to be processed together.

Also, the N036/AFAR is using GaAs T/R modules as per the manufacturer (ФАР с ЭУЛ) and not GaN modules as what many propaganda sites would want you to believe. Honestly, I never saw any genuine data to suggest that any Fighter-borne radar uses GaN AESA radar today.

Coming to those L band arrays, contrary to what many believe, those are not radars. There’s not a single piece of data from NIIP (manufacturer) to suggest that those leading-edge L band arrays function as ‘radar’ nor is it technically practical. You may refer: PAK FA and L Band arrays. Those L band arrays are for IFF and possibly part of EW suite. Its current setup would be very good at IFF function.

Many don’t realize the level of difference between different generations of AESA radars (in terms of operational radars). This is the difference between a 2nd gen. (APG-77) and 3rd gen. (APG-77v1) radar which have T/R modules from APG-81.

Many don’t realize the level of difference between different generations of AESA radars (in terms of operational radars). This is the difference between a 2nd gen. (APG-77) and 3rd gen. (APG-77v1) radar which have T/R modules from APG-81.

Source: Aviation Week, Jan. 2007. https://www.webcitation.org/6Qps...

Range is just one aspect.

So how good will be Su-57’s 1st gen. AESA radar? Probably better than any radar on a Russian Fighter. It’s having ~1,550 T/R modules. So may have some minor advantages compared to AESA radars with smaller radome (T/R modules) like on Gripen, Rafale, etc. Any comparison with APG-81 (~1,672 TRMs) is pointless."

Credit to Indian aviation expert: https://www.quora.com/How-good-is-t...ars-and-sensors-on-the-aircraft-like-the-F-35

Case closed.


EMPHASIS ON THIS PART:

"Coming to those L band arrays, contrary to what many believe, those are not radars. There’s not a single piece of data from NIIP (manufacturer) to suggest that those leading-edge L band arrays function as ‘radar’ nor is it technically practical. You may refer: PAK FA and L Band arrays. Those L band arrays are for IFF and possibly part of EW suite. Its current setup would be very good at IFF function."

---

Even the most powerful of current generation Russian VHF radar systems will not unmask F-35 from decent enough distance:

Declassified information


F-35's passive sensor network have no peer in the world in the domain of jet fighters yet. FYI: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/unde...-35-jsf-for-the-dummies.472240/#post-10935637

To give you an idea about its detection sensitivity:

[1] That rocket was in motion about 800 MILES away from the position of this F-35 prototype jet and the latter's DAS network easily locked onto it, and this is an OLD TEST (2010). Imagine the sensitivity of DAS network in its current form...

And as I pointed out earlier, F-35 have an excellent sensor fusion architecture: AESA + RWR + EOTS + DAS + CNI + HMDS

1. DAS notice something in a particular direction (360 degree coverage).
2. The sensor fusion hub directs EOTS, AN/APG-81 and Barracuda towards the initial contact.
3. EOTS zooms in on the contact to classify and ID it, and attempt to range it with LASER.
4. AN/APG-81 does very narrow search towards the contact to get radar information about it.
5. Barracuda listens to emissions coming from that direction with parameters that match best the type of target (if known).
6. The sensor fusion hub collects and analyses all the information coming from all the sensors and generates and maintains target tracks by tasking the sensors depending on target and situation.

Respective detection range of each sensor system is NOT TO SCALE - refer to [1] above. And F-35 offers FUSED VIEW of the battlefield to its pilot.

And Su-57 is NOT a VLO design per Western standards (see RCS TABLE FOR REFERENCE above), so expect it to be picked on earlier and engaged earlier...


See the top response in this link: https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-an-SU-35-can-easily-jam-an-AMRAAM-120D-AIM9X-making-an-F-35’s-BVR-capabilities-less-effective

AIM-120D AMRAAM incorporate multiple guidance mechanisms in its operation:

- and feature both HOJ and HOBS capabilities to get around potential jamming.


Pointless observations. Refer back to this response: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turk...ighters-to-ankara.613126/page-5#post-11363519


Pointless observations once again.

Su-35S also have 3D Thrust Vectoring, and yet:

Russian design philosophy is different from American, and conventional black-and-white comparisons of the characteristics found in Russian and American fighter jets are ill-advised.


Su-57 is relatively bigger bird and its internal payload capacity is SIX - same as in F-22A Raptor.

However, this is not much of an advantage to highlight when up against an F-35 variant or F-22A.


Sure.

He called F35 "state of art" in other threads just a week back, all of a sudden SU57 starts to get more attention and praising,you figured.

 

[MMM-E]

according to Russian Kommersant 11.04.2019

https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3939644


Russia and Turkey have one solid arms contract providing for the supply of four S-400 divisions to Ankara in the summer of 2019

S-400 deal, which includes the delivery of various components of the system, 40N6 missiles and the training of Turkish specialists, is estimated at $ 2.5 billion, of which 55% of the cost is covered by Russian credit


Turkey buys 40N6E Missile , destruction range is up to 380 km for aerodynamic targets and up to 15 km for ballistic weapons at an altitude 30 km

Range : 380 km
Altitude : 30 km
Speed : mach 4

 

[MMM-E]

-- N036 BYELKA radar suite ( five antennas with AFAR, three in the X-band and two in the L-band )

four sensors detecting missiles in the ultraviolet range, which have a 360-degree view

two 101S-O sensors, which according to UOMZ, are systems for generating interference in the infrared range

another sensor 101KS-P consists of a small device for infrared vision, which helps the pilot during maneuvers at low altitude or when landing

the container of navigation and target designation of the navigation container 101KS-N

-- X-band N036-1 and N036B-1 AESA apertures
-- N036L L-band AESA radar
-- 101KS-P high resolution thermal imager
-- 101KS-U01 EOTS
-- 101KS-O DIRCM
-- 101KS-U DAS
-- 101KS-V IRST
-- 101KS-N navigation and target designation
-- L402 electronic countermeasure suite
-- ZSh-10 helmet with a Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS)

ZSh-10 with NSTI is supposed to equip pilots of the 5th generation Russian fighter program

 

[Mithridates]

Again, these 'university-based simulations' are far from perfect in the absence of useful data on the internal configuration of the inlets and tunnels from the Lockheed Martin itself, and findings are entirely speculative accordingly.

Only Lockheed Martin is in the position to provide accurate simulations for F-35 in this respect and otherwise.


Sure.

Su-35S represents one of the Russia's finest...

F-35 is packing lot of surprises in the matters of maneuverability - recent testimonials.


F-35 is in another league in comparison to Su-57 [on the whole] including EW capabilities. Do you know that an F-35 managed to jam AN/APG-77 radar system in a test? Go figure.

Maneuverability is the only part in which we can have an argument.


F-35's radar system is very very powerful for a jet fighter, and it does not work in isolation. This aircraft can pick on a potential target with an RCS of 3m^2 from about 500 KM away.

Refer to my earlier response in which I tagged you to understand why any F-35 variant have the potential to detect Su-57 first and...

dude your info repeatedly changes. once you say su-57s RCS number is 3 sqm then you say it is 0.1. one time the radar ranges are 450 and 150 km for su-57 and f-35 and now it's 500 km for f-35 while su-57 can't achieve 450 and it's russian propaganda. you are taking side with in your judgments. once i asked from one of our pilots about su-34 and why in stealth age russia is making non stealth planes, he said the su-34 is modern day su-24. us could not shot down iraqi su-24 while they were fleeing iran while US f-15s launched 10-15 AMRAAMs toward them. russians are good at EW and they proved it.

 

[LeGenD]

dude your info repeatedly changes. once you say su-57s RCS number is 3 sqm then you say it is 0.1. one time the radar ranges are 450 and 150 km for su-57 and f-35 and now it's 500 km for f-35 while su-57 can't achieve 450 and it's russian propaganda. you are taking side with in your judgments. once i asked from one of our pilots about su-34 and why in stealth age russia is making non stealth planes, he said the su-34 is modern day su-24. us could not shot down iraqi su-24 while they were fleeing iran while US f-15s launched 10-15 AMRAAMs toward them. russians are good at EW and they proved it.

You misunderstood a point.

3m^2 rcs = MiG-29K - Russian baseline reference for highlighting the detection range of its radar systems on respective brochures.

0.1 - 1.0m^2 rcs = Su-57 - Russian PAK-FA patent, and the Chinese table I shared.

I am not sure which Su-24 related incident you are alluding to. A lot may happen in a full-scale war, and misses can be intentional at times. Russians and Indians are CLASS-A liars on the other hand - try to give their own spin to certain developments concerning them or their assets. Soviets were confident about Iraqi war-machine, to offer substantial resistance to US-led forces in 1991 - they were equally shocked by the results of this war when the war ended. US was a different beast in this war in comparison to Vietnam.

I am aware of following incidents in Syria:

[1] https://theaviationist.com/2015/11/24/ruaf-su-24-shot-down-by-turkey/

[2] http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...n-su-22-shoot-down-from-the-pilots-themselves

 

[Super Falcon]

Far better prosoect than F 35

 

[Nevsky]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1166307584292376577