Turk-Russian Approach: Russia is ready to offer joint production of Su-57 fighters to Ankara

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Ever heard of BAE?? And what they have in terms of stealth tech?

Britain been making jets since the early 1940s Meteor and they can't make a 5th gen jet. Not easy to make.

 

[Mithridates]

we still remember iraqi su-24s jammed tens of AMRAAM missiles launched from US f-15s toward them while they were flying in their way to iran.

RCS of the plane is not described by one number.
The given RCS figure can be the lowest magic angle number.
It can be 30 degrees frontal average RCS which is many times bigger.
It can be 360 degrees average which is many times bigger than frontal average.
RCS figure may include RAM effect or may not.

RCS of X-47

RCS of F-35 without RAM

20db = RCS of 100m2
10db = 10m2
0db = 1m2
-10db = 0.1m2
-20db = 0.01m2

as i know when some company or country talks about a plane RCS they state the frontal RCS. otherwise we all know f-35 is not stealth in sideward. if i recall correctly an f-14 can lock on an f-35 from 90 km away from its 9 and 3 o'clock.

 

[Basel]

Britain been making jets since the early 1940s Meteor and they can't make a 5th gen jet. Not easy to make.

They have tech and now they have realized that they need their own stealth bird that is why project Tempest is being initiated.

BAE is major consultant in TFX program and UK will also provide engines for TFX.

 

[UzaySan]

UK will also provide engines for TFX.

TF-X will use GE engine for prototypes and will use domestic engines in serial production(according to schedule).

Rolls-Royce started a joint venture with Turkish company Kale Havacılık. but they say they are still working on developing an engine but there is not any official statement for RR engines will be used in TFX or they will be tech assistant to domestic engine

 

[LeGenD]

@Mithridates

Tagging you, my friend.

F-35 uses GaAS AESA. APG-81 has RCS of 1 at 150km
SU-57 uses GaN AESA . N036 has RCS of 1 at 400km

GaAs and GaN are useless parameters to highlight - what does this even prove? This sounds familiar actually - all those mouth-watering marketing terms you read on the box of a shiny new motherboard...

Refer to this post: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-1...ce-f16-as-top-jet.610973/page-8#post-11327299

Russians consider 3m^2 RCS as the standard reference point to highlight detection power of their radar systems on brochures for the public.

A (decent) airborne AWACS system is likely to pick on a jet fighter having an RCS in the 0.1 - 1.0m^2 range at around 200 KM mark.

RCS TABLE FOR REFERENCE

Ever seen the radome of a modern AWACS system? massive to say the least. Think about how many T/R modules it would be packing within.

N036 has RCS of 1 at 400km? NOT EVEN CLOSE

"Compared to previous Russian radars, the N036 will likely be more capable in most aspects – that’s what you get from an AESA radar. However, this is an area where Russia is significantly lagging behind the West. Till date there’s not a single operational AESA radar on any Russian aircraft despite Russian manufacturers marketing their AESA radars from over a decade now. Even the latest Mig-35s that were sold to Egypt actually had Zhuk-ME MSA radars. This clearly shows Russia’s lack of maturation in AESA radars.

I’ve seen people confusing Su-57’s side-looking arrays (N036B-1-01) with the main (N036) front radar and considering them as a single radar, which they are not. The X band side-looking arrays have a different Field of view with respect to the front radar, except maybe a negligible overlap. Therefore, you can’t actually “fuse” data from all 3 radars as they can’t see the same target at the same time. Sure, the data from all 3 arrays are likely to be processed together.

Also, the N036/AFAR is using GaAs T/R modules as per the manufacturer (ФАР с ЭУЛ) and not GaN modules as what many propaganda sites would want you to believe. Honestly, I never saw any genuine data to suggest that any Fighter-borne radar uses GaN AESA radar today.

Coming to those L band arrays, contrary to what many believe, those are not radars. There’s not a single piece of data from NIIP (manufacturer) to suggest that those leading-edge L band arrays function as ‘radar’ nor is it technically practical. You may refer: PAK FA and L Band arrays. Those L band arrays are for IFF and possibly part of EW suite. Its current setup would be very good at IFF function.

Many don’t realize the level of difference between different generations of AESA radars (in terms of operational radars). This is the difference between a 2nd gen. (APG-77) and 3rd gen. (APG-77v1) radar which have T/R modules from APG-81.

Many don’t realize the level of difference between different generations of AESA radars (in terms of operational radars). This is the difference between a 2nd gen. (APG-77) and 3rd gen. (APG-77v1) radar which have T/R modules from APG-81.

Source: Aviation Week, Jan. 2007. https://www.webcitation.org/6Qps...

Range is just one aspect.

So how good will be Su-57’s 1st gen. AESA radar? Probably better than any radar on a Russian Fighter. It’s having ~1,550 T/R modules. So may have some minor advantages compared to AESA radars with smaller radome (T/R modules) like on Gripen, Rafale, etc. Any comparison with APG-81 (~1,672 TRMs) is pointless."

Credit to Indian aviation expert: https://www.quora.com/How-good-is-t...ars-and-sensors-on-the-aircraft-like-the-F-35

Case closed.

( N036 L-band radar array will alert its pilots to the general vicinity of enemy 5th generation stealth fighters such as F-35 )

EMPHASIS ON THIS PART:

"Coming to those L band arrays, contrary to what many believe, those are not radars. There’s not a single piece of data from NIIP (manufacturer) to suggest that those leading-edge L band arrays function as ‘radar’ nor is it technically practical. You may refer: PAK FA and L Band arrays. Those L band arrays are for IFF and possibly part of EW suite. Its current setup would be very good at IFF function."

---

Even the most powerful of current generation Russian VHF radar systems will not unmask F-35 from decent enough distance:

Declassified information

-- SU-57's Passive sensor IRST ( infrared search and tack system ) .... infrared camera that scans a head of the aircraft up to 30 km and since it does not emit a signal the enemy can not detect that you have them locked up
( potentially helping it find stealth aircraft at close ranges )

F-35's passive sensor network have no peer in the world in the domain of jet fighters yet. FYI: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/unde...-35-jsf-for-the-dummies.472240/#post-10935637

To give you an idea about its detection sensitivity:

[1] That rocket was in motion about 800 MILES away from the position of this F-35 prototype jet and the latter's DAS network easily locked onto it, and this is an OLD TEST (2010). Imagine the sensitivity of DAS network in its current form...

And as I pointed out earlier, F-35 have an excellent sensor fusion architecture: AESA + RWR + EOTS + DAS + CNI + HMDS

1. DAS notice something in a particular direction (360 degree coverage).
2. The sensor fusion hub directs EOTS, AN/APG-81 and Barracuda towards the initial contact.
3. EOTS zooms in on the contact to classify and ID it, and attempt to range it with LASER.
4. AN/APG-81 does very narrow search towards the contact to get radar information about it.
5. Barracuda listens to emissions coming from that direction with parameters that match best the type of target (if known).
6. The sensor fusion hub collects and analyses all the information coming from all the sensors and generates and maintains target tracks by tasking the sensors depending on target and situation.

Respective detection range of each sensor system is NOT TO SCALE - refer to [1] above. And F-35 offers FUSED VIEW of the battlefield to its pilot.

And Su-57 is NOT a VLO design per Western standards (see RCS TABLE FOR REFERENCE above), so expect it to be picked on earlier and engaged earlier...

-- Russia has advanced electronic warfare capabilities and SU-57 is equipped with digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) jammers that can blind the air to air missiles active radar seeker

See the top response in this link: https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-an-SU-35-can-easily-jam-an-AMRAAM-120D-AIM9X-making-an-F-35’s-BVR-capabilities-less-effective

AIM-120D AMRAAM incorporate multiple guidance mechanisms in its operation:

- and feature both HOJ and HOBS capabilities to get around potential jamming.

-- SU-57 has two engines with more agile characteristics, higher ceiling, impressive ferry range and more ruggedly built than the F35

Pointless observations. Refer back to this response: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turk...ighters-to-ankara.613126/page-5#post-11363519

-- F-35A has no Thurst vectoring control ( TVC ) , even F-22 has 2D thrust vector jets ..... but SU-57 has 3D thrust vector jets which the US Fighter Jets do not have

Pointless observations once again.

Su-35S also have 3D Thrust Vectoring, and yet:

Russian design philosophy is different from American, and conventional black-and-white comparisons of the characteristics found in Russian and American fighter jets are ill-advised.

-- The internal payload = F-35A : 4 air to air missiles ..... SU-57 : 8 air to air missiles

Su-57 is relatively bigger bird and its internal payload capacity is SIX - same as in F-22A Raptor.

However, this is not much of an advantage to highlight when up against an F-35 variant or F-22A.

so Turkish design cockpit , electronics , mission computer , IFF system , self protection electronic warfare suite , national data link , network centric warfare and weapons can make SU-57 more dangerous under the control of crazy talented and well trained Turkish Pilots

Sure.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

F-35. Su-57. It don't matter. These are White Man's toys. You know White Man. Not reliable. Personally, Su-57 looks better than F-35.

 

[LeGenD]

RCS of the plane is not described by one number.
The given RCS figure can be the lowest magic angle number.
It can be 30 degrees frontal average RCS which is many times bigger.
It can be 360 degrees average which is many times bigger than frontal average.
RCS figure may include RAM effect or may not.

RCS of X-47

RCS of F-35 without RAM

20db = RCS of 100m2
10db = 10m2
0db = 1m2
-10db = 0.1m2
-20db = 0.01m2

Again, these 'university-based simulations' are far from perfect in the absence of useful data on the internal configuration of the inlets and tunnels from the Lockheed Martin itself, and findings are entirely speculative accordingly.

Only Lockheed Martin is in the position to provide accurate simulations for F-35 in this respect and otherwise.

you got it wrong bro. g force just shows how strong the structure is. the most important things are max angle of attack, thrust/weight ratio and turn ratio. for example f-5, f-14 and f-18 have +7g limit but they are more maneuverable than 9g f-15 or su-24 and f-4 both have +6g limit but turn ratio of f-4 is better and it's more maneuverable than su-24. also as i can remember su-57 can withstand up to 20g force if you use it as drone (human can withstand up to 9g with g suit).

Sure.

Su-35S represents one of the Russia's finest...

F-35 is packing lot of surprises in the matters of maneuverability - recent testimonials.

f-35 has better sensors compared to pak-fa but SU has better EW and is more maneuverable.

F-35 is in another league in comparison to Su-57 [on the whole] including EW capabilities. Do you know that an F-35 managed to jam AN/APG-77 radar system in a test? Go figure.

Maneuverability is the only part in which we can have an argument.

also a funny fact, based on RCS numbers (0.1 for SU and .005 for f-35) and their radar ranges (450 and 150), both planes are able to track other as far as 80 kms. so the advantage is with the one that has better EW and ECM (su-57). if sukhoi manage to decrease the RCS number even further, the pak-fa would become a really deadly platform.

F-35's radar system is very very powerful for a jet fighter, and it does not work in isolation. This aircraft can pick on a potential target with an RCS of 3m^2 from about 500 KM away.

Refer to my earlier response in which I tagged you to understand why any F-35 variant have the potential to detect Su-57 first and...

 

[zzzz]

F-35 is in another league in comparison to Su-57 [on the whole] including EW capabilities. Do you know that an F-35 managed to jam AN/APG-77 radar system in a test? Go figure.

Here is some education for you. The main parameter that affects radar and EW capabilities of the plane is the power output. To jam anything you should generate more powerful signal to silence enemy radar. To increase output power you need to increase electricity power that comes from engines. The more powerful engines the more electricity they generate. F-35 engine: 125 KN thrust. SU-57 engines: 214 KN, thats 70% more power. Sure these jets in different leagues, SU-57 will eat inferior low-tier F-35 for breakfast.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Here is some education for you. The main parameter that affects radar and EW capabilities of the plane is the power output. To jam anything you should generate more powerful signal to silence enemy radar. To increase output power you need to increase electricity power that comes from engines. The more powerful engines the more electricity they generate. F-35 engine: 125 KN thrust. SU-57 engines: 214 KN, thats 70% more power. Sure these jets in different leagues, SU-57 will eat inferior low-tier F-35 for breakfast.

Some people just don't get physics, like the silly people who think CO2 boils the Earth. Blah.

 

[LeGenD]

Here is some education for you. The main parameter that affects radar and EW capabilities of the plane is the power output. To jam anything you should generate more powerful signal to silence enemy radar. To increase output power you need to increase electricity power that comes from engines. The more powerful engines the more electricity they generate. F-35 engine: 125 KN thrust. SU-57 engines: 214 KN, thats 70% more power. Sure these jets in different leagues, SU-57 will eat inferior low-tier F-35 for breakfast.

Some education for you:

"One of the major advantages of an AESA system its high degree of resistance to electronic jamming techniques. Radar jamming is usually done by determining the frequency at which an enemy radar is broadcasting and then transmitting a signal at that same frequency to confuse it. Over time, engineers developed a way to counteract this form of jamming by designing radar systems which could change their frequency with each pulse. But as radar advanced, so did jamming techniques. In addition to changing frequencies, AESA systems can distribute frequencies across a wide band, even within individual pulses, a radar technique called “chirping”. This combination of traits makes it much harder to jam an AESA system than other forms of radar."

Link: https://blog.bliley.com/understanding-aesa-radar-tech

And;

"Because the F-35's EW architecture is fully digitized, it weighs less, needs less space, and requires less power than legacy technology. However, the F-35 provides much greater electrical power for electronic applications than last-generation aircraft, enabling it to collect information and generate effects over larger areas. The radar is designed to generate highly directional signals for jamming so that emitters in specific locations can be disrupted without causing collateral effects elsewhere in the battlespace."

Link: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorent...-fighter-story-you-havent-heard/#6640666668cc

You take the developers of F-35 as being ignorant? They know much more about this stuff than you ever will in person.

Some people just don't get physics, like the silly people who think CO2 boils the Earth. Blah.

You talking about physics? Shall I dig up your comedy?

 

[baqai]

Israel says bend over Uncle Sam obliges

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

You talking about physics? Shall I dig up your comedy?

You better not. I have master's degree in computer engineering from University of Waterloo. You get humiliated if you challenge me on physics.

 

[MMM-E]

F-35 vs SU-57 Which is the better Fighter for Turkey?

by cancelling the F-35, not only would the United States lose one of its oldest clients for combat aircraft, but Israel, Greece and other potential Turkish adversaries would also find themselves facing a considerably more dangerous Turkish air fleet than they would have had Ankara purchased the American stealth fighter



Turkey’s Air Force today fields a sizeable light fighter fleet, comprised of approximately 240 F-16 multirole platforms

The country’s air superiority capabilities however leave much to be desired, with the Vietnam War Era third generation F-4E Phantom remaining the country’s fastest, highest flying and most heavily armed platform and its only heavy fighter

While the F-35 would provide a considerably more modern light fighter for the Turkish fleet, it is arguably the country’s air superiority capabilities which are most in need of improvement - hence why the Su-57 could be the ideal platform for Turkey

a more advanced fifth generation heavy platform would provide Turkey with the most capable air superiority fighter in the Middle East and Europe


Should the U.S. proceed to terminate sales of the F-35 to Turkey, not only would Ankara move to rely more closely on Moscow for its defence, but the Turkish Air Force would also field a considerably heavier more capable and aircraft for its fleet.
Acquisition of the Su-57 could also pave the way for Russian involvement in Turkey's indigenous fifth generation fighter project - thus effectively backfiring and severely undermining American interests



https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...ter-fighter-for-turkey-infographic-comparison








BVR Rating = F-35 : 94% SU-57 : 97%
Technology = F-35 : 9.5/10 SU-57 : 9.3/10
Avionics = F-35 : 9.0/10 SU-57 : 9.3/10
Maneuverability = F-35 : 8.5/10 SU-57 : 10/10 (3D Thrust)
Rate of Climbmax = F-35 : 230 m/s – 45k ft/min SU-57 : max. 350 m/s – 65k ft/min
BVR Technology = F-35 : 92% SU-57 : 97%
BVR Def. Tech = F-35 : 95% SU-57 : 95%
RCS – Radar Cross Section = F-35 : 0.005-0.3 SU-57 : 0.005-0.5

Read more https://aviatia.net/f-35-lightning-ii-vs-sukhoi-pak-fa/

 

[LeGenD]

F-35 vs SU-57 Which is the better Fighter for Turkey?

by cancelling the F-35, not only would the United States lose one of its oldest clients for combat aircraft, but Israel, Greece and other potential Turkish adversaries would also find themselves facing a considerably more dangerous Turkish air fleet than they would have had Ankara purchased the American stealth fighter



Turkey’s Air Force today fields a sizeable light fighter fleet, comprised of approximately 240 F-16 multirole platforms

The country’s air superiority capabilities however leave much to be desired, with the Vietnam War Era third generation F-4E Phantom remaining the country’s fastest, highest flying and most heavily armed platform and its only heavy fighter

While the F-35 would provide a considerably more modern light fighter for the Turkish fleet, it is arguably the country’s air superiority capabilities which are most in need of improvement - hence why the Su-57 could be the ideal platform for Turkey

a more advanced fifth generation heavy platform would provide Turkey with the most capable air superiority fighter in the Middle East and Europe


Should the U.S. proceed to terminate sales of the F-35 to Turkey, not only would Ankara move to rely more closely on Moscow for its defence, but the Turkish Air Force would also field a considerably heavier more capable and aircraft for its fleet.
Acquisition of the Su-57 could also pave the way for Russian involvement in Turkey's indigenous fifth generation fighter project - thus effectively backfiring and severely undermining American interests



https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...ter-fighter-for-turkey-infographic-comparison








BVR Rating : F-35 94% SU-57 97%
Technology : F-35 9.5/10 SU-57 9.3/10
Avionics : F-35 9.0/10 SU-579.3/10
Maneuverability : F-35 8.5/10 SU-57 10/10 (3D Thrust)
Rate of Climbmax : F-35 230 m/s – 45k ft/min SU-57 max. 350 m/s – 65k ft/min
BVR Technology : F-35 92% SU-57 97%
BVR Def. Tech : F-35 95% SU-57 95%
RCS – Radar Cross Section : F-35 0.005-0.3 SU-57 0.005-0.5

Read more https://aviatia.net/f-35-lightning-ii-vs-sukhoi-pak-fa/

Rubbish comparison - filled with baseless set-of-assumptions.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

F-35 vs SU-57 Which is the better Fighter for Turkey?

by cancelling the F-35, not only would the United States lose one of its oldest clients for combat aircraft, but Israel, Greece and other potential Turkish adversaries would also find themselves facing a considerably more dangerous Turkish air fleet than they would have had Ankara purchased the American stealth fighter



Turkey’s Air Force today fields a sizeable light fighter fleet, comprised of approximately 240 F-16 multirole platforms

The country’s air superiority capabilities however leave much to be desired, with the Vietnam War Era third generation F-4E Phantom remaining the country’s fastest, highest flying and most heavily armed platform and its only heavy fighter

While the F-35 would provide a considerably more modern light fighter for the Turkish fleet, it is arguably the country’s air superiority capabilities which are most in need of improvement - hence why the Su-57 could be the ideal platform for Turkey

a more advanced fifth generation heavy platform would provide Turkey with the most capable air superiority fighter in the Middle East and Europe


Should the U.S. proceed to terminate sales of the F-35 to Turkey, not only would Ankara move to rely more closely on Moscow for its defence, but the Turkish Air Force would also field a considerably heavier more capable and aircraft for its fleet.
Acquisition of the Su-57 could also pave the way for Russian involvement in Turkey's indigenous fifth generation fighter project - thus effectively backfiring and severely undermining American interests



https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...ter-fighter-for-turkey-infographic-comparison








BVR Rating = F-35 : 94% SU-57 : 97%
Technology = F-35 : 9.5/10 SU-57 : 9.3/10
Avionics = F-35 : 9.0/10 SU-57 : 9.3/10
Maneuverability = F-35 : 8.5/10 SU-57 : 10/10 (3D Thrust)
Rate of Climbmax = F-35 : 230 m/s – 45k ft/min SU-57 : max. 350 m/s – 65k ft/min
BVR Technology = F-35 : 92% SU-57 : 97%
BVR Def. Tech = F-35 : 95% SU-57 : 95%
RCS – Radar Cross Section = F-35 : 0.005-0.3 SU-57 : 0.005-0.5

Read more https://aviatia.net/f-35-lightning-ii-vs-sukhoi-pak-fa/

I guess the strong selling point of Su-57 is 4 AESA radars giving 360 degrees coverage. This is a first for a fighter jet.