The Drums of War? Pentagon Provokes New Crisis With China

[huzihaidao12]

Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.

Wouldnt you considered those people murdred by communism.

Mao's social-political programs, such as the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, are blamed for costing millions of lives, causing severe famine and damage to the culture, society and economy of China. Mao's policies and political purges from 1949 to 1976 are widely believed to have caused the deaths of between 50 to 70 million people.[2][3

Mao Zedong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

wiki? you sure?

There again I do not want someone stupid enough to confuse the famine death and the death of the Cultural Revolution, the Cultural Revolution, only about 2,000 deaths. Famine has caused huge casualties, mainly farmers. The object of the Cultural Revolution are government officials and intellectuals, do you think what were they a total number of people in China that time? So, not to mention some stupid things.

 

[huzihaidao12]

You also do not understand "the Great Leap Forward". MAO is not the primary responsibility, his responsibility as a leader, but not the actual instigators . If I do not know what happened in 1959-1979, you may even be less than 1% of me.

 

[gambit]

Are you sure about that?

Right...All you have to do is support your claim that life in North Viet Nam was better than South. Then show the readers a credible source that says there was a constant stream of refugees fleeing northward.

So tell me do you know the number of those have-nots. I do not. Saying in absolution that there was none is wrong already. Also, tell me how many people were purged by the SV government also?

This is the strawman argument that you accuse others of using. In every society there are always those who are poor for a variety of reasons. This still does not make it false that South Viet Nam was better off overall than North.

"Prince Norodom Sihanouk had proclaimed Cambodia neutral since 1955, but the communists used Cambodian soil as a base and Sihanouk tolerated their presence, because he wished to avoid being drawn into a wider regional conflict."
How could it be a violation when it was tolerated.

You really do not know the meaning of violation, do you? It does not matter if both Laos and Cambodia 'tolerated' the NVA or not. Neither countries invited the North Vietnamese into their countries for the purpose of conducting a war. Neither country was capable of militarily resisting the NVA anyway. By your argument, any militarily superior country could occupy a weaker one and if the weaker one 'tolerate' a foreign force on home soil then there is no violation. Now am beginning to wonder if you are even smart enough for this debate.

How about Operation Menu then, tell me that was invited instead,...

Under international law, any country that allows its territory to be used as part of a war, the parties involved in the conflict has the right to cross borders. Here...

The Avalon Project - Laws of War : Rights and Duties of Neutral Powers and Persons in Case of War on Land (Hague V); October 18, 1907

Article 1.
The territory of neutral Powers is inviolable.

Art. 2.
Belligerents are forbidden to move troops or convoys of either munitions of war or supplies across the territory of a neutral Power.

Art. 3.
Belligerents are likewise forbidden to:

(a) Erect on the territory of a neutral Power a wireless telegraphy station or other apparatus for the purpose of communicating with belligerent forces on land or sea;

(b) Use any installation of this kind established by them before the war on the territory of a neutral Power for purely military purposes, and which has not been opened for the service of public messages.

Art. 4.
Corps of combatants cannot be formed nor recruiting agencies opened on the territory of a neutral Power to assist the belligerents.

Art. 5.
A neutral Power must not allow any of the acts referred to in Articles 2 to 4 to occur on its territory.

It is not called upon to punish acts in violation of its neutrality unless the said acts have been committed on its own territory.

See if you got the smarts to digest that.

...remember Kent State.

Has nothing to do with this. You are just fishing.

That I actually agree.

Good...Then Ho Chi Minh was a traitor.

Just tell me as well as the others why he lost the position of first secretary toward the end of 1956.

For you, wiki source is good enough...

Truong Chinh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[gambit]

wiki? you sure?

There again I do not want someone stupid enough to confuse the famine death and the death of the Cultural Revolution, the Cultural Revolution, only about 2,000 deaths. Famine has caused huge casualties, mainly farmers. The object of the Cultural Revolution are government officials and intellectuals, do you think what were they a total number of people in China that time? So, not to mention some stupid things.

Why was there a need for a 'Cultural Revolution' in the first place? China is a fertile land and farming is not unknown, so why was there a famine?

 

[chauism]

You really do not know the meaning of violation, do you? It does not matter if both Laos and Cambodia 'tolerated' the NVA or not. Neither countries invited the North Vietnamese into their countries for the purpose of conducting a war. Neither country was capable of militarily resisting the NVA anyway. By your argument, any militarily superior country could occupy a weaker one and if the weaker one 'tolerate' a foreign force on home soil then there is no violation.

That sounds lot like someone we know.

"In 1966, Sihanouk made an agreement with Zhou En-lai of the People's Republic of China that would allow PAVN and NLF forces to establish Base Areas in Cambodia and to use the port of Sihanoukville for the delivery of military materiel."
Arnold Isaacs, Gordon Hardy, MacAlister Brown, et al., Pawns of War. Boston: Boston Publishing Company, 1987, p. 83.

Even though NV were not invited as well, there was an agreement upon it.

"Cambodian claims of neutrality, however, did not prevent President Lyndon B. Johnson from authorizing covert reconnaissance operations by the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam Studies and Observations Group beginning in 1967."
Military Assistance Command, Vietnam, Command History 1967, Annex F, Saigon, 1968, p. 4..

"On 30 January 1969, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Earl G. Wheeler had suggested to the president that he authorize the bombing of the Cambodian sanctuaries. He was seconded on 9 February by the US commander in Vietnam, General Creighton W. Abrams, who also submitted his proposal to bomb the Central Office of South Vietnam (COSVN), the elusive headquarters of PAVN/NLF southern operations, located somewhere in the Fishhook region of eastern Cambodia.
......
......

After the event, it was claimed by Nixon and Kissinger that Sihanouk had given his tacit approval for the raids, but this claim has since been disproved."
William Shawcross, Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon, and the Destruction of Cambodia. New York: Washington Square press, 1979, pps. 68–71.
So tell me here, who was the violator here.

Kent State massacre was very relevant in this matter, US's illegal invasion of Cambodia was one of the main reasons for the protest.

Good...Then Ho Chi Minh was a traitor.

That is what I have agreed on, and especially Viet Minh.

Did I say it was not? If anything, NV was even more dependent upon China and the Soviet Union than SVN was on the US. Chinese dominance over NVN was well known and acknowledged, even by top NVA officials, like this man...

"Trường Chinh had already been criticized for his unwillingness to agree with other party leaders and for his support of China while other leaders relied on the Soviet Union as their role model. The Sino-Soviet split reduced China's influence in Hanoi and Trường Chinh lost the position of first secretary toward the end of 1956."

Yes, very dominant of China over Vietnam.

 

[gambit]

"In 1966, Sihanouk made an agreement with Zhou En-lai of the People's Republic of China that would allow PAVN and NLF forces to establish Base Areas in Cambodia and to use the port of Sihanoukville for the delivery of military materiel."
Arnold Isaacs, Gordon Hardy, MacAlister Brown, et al., Pawns of War. Boston: Boston Publishing Company, 1987, p. 83.

If there is an invitation, a short term agreement or a long term treaty that may spans several regimes of governments, then there is no violation.

Even though NV were not invited as well, there was an agreement upon it.

"Cambodian claims of neutrality, however, did not prevent President Lyndon B. Johnson from authorizing covert reconnaissance operations by the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam Studies and Observations Group beginning in 1967."
Military Assistance Command, Vietnam, Command History 1967, Annex F, Saigon, 1968, p. 4..

"On 30 January 1969, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Earl G. Wheeler had suggested to the president that he authorize the bombing of the Cambodian sanctuaries. He was seconded on 9 February by the US commander in Vietnam, General Creighton W. Abrams, who also submitted his proposal to bomb the Central Office of South Vietnam (COSVN), the elusive headquarters of PAVN/NLF southern operations, located somewhere in the Fishhook region of eastern Cambodia.
......
......

After the event, it was claimed by Nixon and Kissinger that Sihanouk had given his tacit approval for the raids, but this claim has since been disproved."
William Shawcross, Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon, and the Destruction of Cambodia. New York: Washington Square press, 1979, pps. 68–71.
So tell me here, who was the violator here.

Claims of neutrality are nullified if the territory is being used as a war staging ground. Therefore, any border violation is fully justified. Just as I thought, you do not have the intelligence to fully grasp the subject.

Kent State massacre was very relevant in this matter, US's illegal invasion of Cambodia was one of the main reasons for the protest.

The Kent State protest is incidental and in the US. This is another strawman argument.

That is what I have agreed on, and especially Viet Minh.

Then Colonel Bui Tin's indictment of communism being the cause of Viet Nam's backwardness is valid.

 

[chauism]

Claims of neutrality are nullified if the territory is being used as a war staging ground. Therefore, any border violation is fully justified. Just as I thought, you do not have the intelligence to fully grasp the subject.

I thought you would say that. However Lyndon Johnson did not formally declare war against North Vietnam, so the Laws of War does not really apply here formally does it? Because of this later War Powers Resolution was passed by the congress to prevent similar situation from emerging again.

Trespassing in one's territory is one thing, but bombing one's sovereign territory is totally a different thing.

Good...Then Ho Chi Minh was a traitor.

Then Colonel Bui Tin's indictment of communism being the cause of Viet Nam's backwardness is valid.

I don't see how those two can be related to each other.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Why was there a need for a 'Cultural Revolution' in the first place? China is a fertile land and farming is not unknown, so why was there a famine?

As I said, "I do not know what happened in the 1959-1979" We have some findings, however, not enough in the true argument. Germany's former Prime Minister called "a great experiment."

As for the famine, for three reasons, first, the explosive growth of population, because the era of peace and quiet life. Second, the largest severe natural disasters in three consecutive years. Add the responsibility of the Chinese leaders, Chinese leaders need to be blamed, however, you are not the same as knowledge, not many of Mao's responsibility, this is our recent discovery.

A "new thing" appeared in China. Or again in China, 1949 years later. "A big, terrible thing", which led directly to the Cultural Revolution and famine. OK, I will not say more, because we also are looking for answers.

 

[huzihaidao12]

BTW, China's agriculture was backward in 1949, many parts of the medieval mode of production, many places are not suitable for cultivation, production small. Droughts and floods in many places, while the burden of a huge population, is not so easy as you think

 

[huzihaidao12]

Interview mit Helmut Schmidt: Wir sehen China ganz falsch

http://www.wz-newsline.de/?redid=206005

Solange Mao lebte, hat er eine Reihe waghalsigerExperimente durchgeführt und dabei schwere Fehler begangen. Zum Beispiel hatsein Großer Sprung nach vorn in den 1950er Jahren Millionen Hungertotegefordert. Man weiß nicht genau, wie viele dabei umgekommen sind.

Möglicherweise eine zweistellige Millionenziffer.Schließlich hat auch das andere gigantische Experiment, nämlich seinesogenannte Proletarische Kulturrevolution, Tausende Tote gekostet. Sie allesind umgebracht worden. Er selbst starb 1976, und wenige Jahre darauf gelangtemit Deng Xiaoping jemand an die Spitze, der ein neues Experiment mit bisherglänzendem Erfolg wagte.



Mao Zedong was still alive, he made a series of experimental risk, the end of these experiments was a serious mistake. Such as the Great Leap Forward 50 years, starved to death millions of people living in the past death. People do not know how many people were killed.

There are more than 10 million numbers. Other large-scale experiment, he called the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, resulting in thousands of lives. What are these people who were shot. After Mao's death, in 1976 standing in the leadership of Deng Xiaoping, his courage to the brilliant results so far.

 

[gambit]

As I said, "I do not know what happened in the 1959-1979" We have some findings, however, not enough in the true argument. Germany's former Prime Minister called "a great experiment."

As for the famine, for three reasons, first, the explosive growth of population, because the era of peace and quiet life. Second, the largest severe natural disasters in three consecutive years. Add the responsibility of the Chinese leaders, Chinese leaders need to be blamed, however, you are not the same as knowledge, not many of Mao's responsibility, this is our recent discovery.

A "new thing" appeared in China. Or again in China, 1949 years later. "A big, terrible thing", which led directly to the Cultural Revolution and famine. OK, I will not say more, because we also are looking for answers.

BTW, China's agriculture was backward in 1949, many parts of the medieval mode of production, many places are not suitable for cultivation, production small. Droughts and floods in many places, while the burden of a huge population, is not so easy as you think

I can only shake my head at this blatant whitewashing of one of the greatest moral crimes in modern times.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

There again I do not want someone stupid enough to confuse the famine death and the death of the Cultural Revolution, the Cultural Revolution, only about 2,000 deaths. Famine has caused huge casualties, mainly farmers. The object of the Cultural Revolution are government officials and intellectuals, do you think what were they a total number of people in China that time? So, not to mention some stupid things.

The Chinese cultural revolution caused the death of 30 million people (source: the current Chinese government), but many died of hunger. All over a failed poltical system and this happed about 35 years ago in China, doesnt this just make you sick. Think of all the horror and suffering that went along with it.

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/cultrev.htm

 

[huzihaidao12]

I can only shake my head at this blatant whitewashing of one of the greatest moral crimes in modern times.

You have this idea not surprising, because you really do not have history. We also do not care what others think, if you have more accurate, factual information, it is popular, we are working very hard to interpret history. In the current government's "political correctness." In fact, a key material "Selected Works of Mao Zedong, Volume 5" - record of Mao's words, after 1959 - is prohibited publication. Ahead of him is published in four volumes, Volume 5 only is prohibited, you know why?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The Chinese cultural revolution caused the death of 30 million people (source: the current Chinese government), but many died of hunger. All over a failed poltical system and this happed about 35 years ago in China, doesnt this just make you sick. Think of all the horror and suffering that went along with it.

The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution in China, 1966-1976

Yes it makes me sick to think of the tens of millions of people who starved to death because of Chairman Mao's failed policies.

They were my brothers and sisters after all...

So, what point are you trying to make? You do realise that China had market reforms in the 1970's and is now a Capitalist economy?

 

[huzihaidao12]

I can only shake my head at this blatant whitewashing of one of the greatest moral crimes in modern times.

More accurate question, which part of agriculture? Mao? Then we can discuss better.