The Drums of War? Pentagon Provokes New Crisis With China

[CardSharp]

It was a tragic experiment that failed, and killed tens of millions of innocent Chinese people with it.

It is a lesson to the world what Communism means and why we must never go back to it.

As to your question, if only it was so easy to go back and time and erase the many many crimes against humanity that have been perpetrated all over the world.

Deng Xiaoping saved China by implementing market reforms, which lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese people out of poverty. This is the reason why our economy is doing so well now, and why we are finally re-emerging after hundreds of years in turmoil.

You could not be more wrong...

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

You could not be more wrong...

Why do you think that?

During the era of Chairman Mao, from 1950-70's... tens of millions of Chinese people died because of failed economic policies.

The era after Deng Xiaoping, from the 1970-2000's saw an enormous economic revival, and hundreds of millions of Chinese people were raised out of poverty and China is once again re-emerging as a great power.

What don't you agree with?

 

[huzihaidao12]

Yes...We know that communism did not last very long but while it reigned and wherever it reigned its application resulted in misery and backwardness when compared to functional democracies. In the case of Viet Nam, if we examine the country as it is today with all the foreign investments that helped lift the country out of economic despair, we see that we are looking at South Viet Nam and why so many South Vietnamese defended their way of life, imperfect as it was, from an even worse fate -- communism. The argument that the Vietnamese communists was fighting for Vietnamese independence is a distraction. South Viet Nam was independent. As was North Viet Nam independent. So if Viet Nam today is working hard to become like South Viet Nam of yesterday, what was the war about? For what?

Same questions can be asked for China. What was the communist experience for? Independence? No...Because just like how the US view colonialism for Indochina...

Pentagon Papers, Gravel Edition, Summary and Chapter I

Roosevelt died before Indochina, which contained Viet Nam, Laos and Cambodia, entered UN trusteeship. Plus with the Ho-Sainteny Agreement in 1946 that the Viet Minh placed Viet Nam back under France, Indochina's freedom from warfare never had a start. So if we go by the America's attitude regarding colonialism in Indochina, that mean China's freedom from pre-WWII European colonialism was %99.999 assured. That mean the communist experiment and experience, in China and in Indochina, was unnecessary.

This is the so-called no history of contact, one-sided point of view. Although, I agree that communist is a large defect theory. His series of experiments in human history is not successful, but he left a mark. Like the former, like the labor movement and the human rights movement, after long efforts to get a good fruit. At that time, his name is or is not "communist " not important, as long as humans can get ahead.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Why do you think that?

During the era of Chairman Mao, from 1950-70's... tens of millions of Chinese people died because of failed economic policies.

The era after Deng Xiaoping, from the 1970-2000's saw an enormous economic revival, and hundreds of millions of Chinese people were raised out of poverty and China is once again re-emerging as a great power.

What don't you agree with?

Do not argue. In any case, no matter what kind of history we find that in the future, the result is not really good that time.We have great achievement, but also huge mistake.
Chinese people are pragmatic, which theory can bring about a better life, which we choose to use the theory, life is more important than doctrine.

 

[huzihaidao12]

China is not India, not Brazil now, this is the "communist" results, so that simple said, but you certainly do not know why I said so.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Do not argue. In any case, no matter what kind of history we find that in the future, the result is not really good that time.We have great achievement, but also huge mistake.
Chinese people are pragmatic, which theory can bring about a better life, which we choose to use the theory, life is more important than doctrine.

You are right.

Our Economy is doing well, and our future is bright.

 

[chauism]

The applicability of the laws of war is independent of whether there exist a piece of paper formalizing for historical records a conflict. By your argument, absent a formal declaration of war by at least one party, ANY and ALL atrocities in this conflict are not morally condemnable.


The trespass was to conduct terrorism against the population of another country. South Viet Nam and the US were allies and interested parties in a conflict. North Viet Nam, China and the Soviet Union were allies and also interested parties in the same conflict. Neither Laos nor Cambodia declared themselves interested parties and therefore each have a responsibility to remove themselves and their territories from the conflict. One country cannot overtly or covertly support one party in a conflict and declare itself neutral and its territory inviolable at the other party.


Of course the rejection of communism by Bui Tin and the treachery of the Viet Minh are related. They are related by YOUR argument that traitors are not to be trusted. By the fact that the Viet Minh colluded with Viet Nam's former colonial master -- France -- via the Ho-Sainteny Agreement, everything the Vietnamese communists do after should be suspect.

By your argument, then US had very good legal ground and a prefect excuse to invade Afghanistan or any other countries that they suspect harbouring terrorists. Same applies to China, if any country is harboring or provide any assistance to the enemy of the state, then it is prefectly legal for China just to carpet bomb the hell out of it.

As regarding Ho Chi Minh, who was the one that done most of the fighting in First Indochina War, and drove the French out of Vietnam. After the war, who was the one refused to enter into negotiations with North Vietnam about holding nationwide elections in 1956, as had been stipulated by the Geneva Conference, would eventually lead to war breaking out again in South Vietnam in 1959 - the Second Indochina War.

Argument aside, there is one question I want to ask you though.
How much do you know about Trident II/D5 missile?

 

[chauism]

Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.

Wouldnt you considered those people murdred by communism.

Mao's social-political programs, such as the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, are blamed for costing millions of lives, causing severe famine and damage to the culture, society and economy of China. Mao's policies and political purges from 1949 to 1976 are widely believed to have caused the deaths of between 50 to 70 million people.[2][3

Mao Zedong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I hope you know what "Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc" means.

 

[huzihaidao12]

You are right.

Our Economy is doing well, and our future is bright.

Caution that there are still many problems. We need more wisdom and hard work.

 

[CardSharp]

It was a tragic experiment that failed, and killed tens of millions of innocent Chinese people with it.
It is a lesson to the world what Communism means and why we must never go back to it.
As to your question, if only it was so easy to go back and time and erase the many many crimes against humanity that have been perpetrated all over the world.
Deng Xiaoping saved China by implementing market reforms, which lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese people out of poverty. This is the reason why our economy is doing so well now, and why we are finally re-emerging after hundreds of years in turmoil.

Some people do hate China, which I think is a shame because the "ordinary Chinese people" have nothing to do with such politics, and are innocent in the matter.
Some people hate the current Chinese government, despite the fact that it has raised hundreds of millions of Chinese people out of poverty, who else has done so much for the people of China?
At the end of the day, what really matters is the opinion of the Chinese people towards the Chinese government. Change comes from within.

What don't you agree with?

What you are doing here is being an apologist for the Chinese government in the eyes of the west. You've been shamed by the west's constant criticism and contempt for communism and China, so you’ve mentally resorted to make excuses to protect your ego(Freudian sense of the word). “oh we’re not communist we just tried it out for fashion and it didn’t stick” or more ridiculously “westerners can’t hate me or ‘ordinary Chinese’, we didn’t have anything to do with communism” or “you can’t hate the CCP, they raised millions out of poverty.”


Grow some backbone will ya? Some Chinese nationalist you are. What happened happened. It might feel all noble to be sad about those who died but it won’t bring them back. The Chinese communists are what they are. They brought China from a medieval state to a prosperous modern nation and the mistakes they made/cruel things they did are tragedies but they are our tragedies. We don’t need to justify our own history to anyone. Capisce?

 

[gambit]

By your argument, then US had very good legal ground and a prefect excuse to invade Afghanistan or any other countries that they suspect harbouring terrorists.

Correct. Either passively or actively.

Same applies to China, if any country is harboring or provide any assistance to the enemy of the state, then it is prefectly legal for China just to carpet bomb the hell out of it.

Provided that 'enemy' is in active conflict against China. Of course, China could respond militarily to any type of opposition, but then there would be consequences to that as well.

As regarding Ho Chi Minh, who was the one that done most of the fighting in First Indochina War, and drove the French out of Vietnam.

Considering he brought the French back in. No surprise here that you ignore the Ho-Sainteny Agreement of 1946. Ho needed the French to assist him in wiping out his oppositions. He was not stupid. He knew that France, so eager to reclaim Indochina, would try to remove him as well. So in a way, the burden of removing France should correctly fall upon him.

After the war, who was the one refused to enter into negotiations with North Vietnam about holding nationwide elections in 1956, as had been stipulated by the Geneva Conference, would eventually lead to war breaking out again in South Vietnam in 1959 - the Second Indochina War.

Why should Diem abide by that agreement? The atrocities committed by the communists, Chinese and Vietnamese, in North Viet Nam was already well known. Who granted the communists the leadership mantle to speak for all Vietnamese?

I may respond to you but I can tell that these are not your words.

 

[chauism]

Correct. Either passively or actively.


Provided that 'enemy' is in active conflict against China. Of course, China could respond militarily to any type of opposition, but then there would be consequences to that as well.

What more can I say, if that is what you think.

Considering he brought the French back in. No surprise here that you ignore the Ho-Sainteny Agreement of 1946. Ho needed the French to assist him in wiping out his oppositions. He was not stupid. He knew that France, so eager to reclaim Indochina, would try to remove him as well. So in a way, the burden of removing France should correctly fall upon him.

It was as if the French needed to be brought back. Ho-Sainteny Agreement to the French is nothing more than a piece of paper work.

Why should Diem abide by that agreement? The atrocities committed by the communists, Chinese and Vietnamese, in North Viet Nam was already well known. Who granted the communists the leadership mantle to speak for all Vietnamese?

Then what was he so afraid of the all Vietnamese election? If communists in the North was so oppressive, don't you think the people will be on his side. The election will actually prove to be beneficial to him? The election would be able to tell which one the Vietnamese people want to grant their power to.

Those words in the previous post were my word expect last sentence, but it is what I want to say.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

What you are doing here is being an apologist for the Chinese government in the eyes of the west. You've been shamed by the west's constant criticism and contempt for communism and China, so you?ve mentally resorted to make excuses to protect your ego(Freudian sense of the word). ?oh we?re not communist we just tried it out for fashion and it didn?t stick? or more ridiculously ?westerners can?t hate me or ?ordinary Chinese?, we didn?t have anything to do with communism? or ?you can?t hate the CCP, they raised millions out of poverty.?


Grow some backbone will ya? Some Chinese nationalist you are. What happened happened. It might feel all noble to be sad about those who died but it won?t bring them back. The Chinese communists are what they are. They brought China from a medieval state to a prosperous modern nation and the mistakes they made/cruel things they did are tragedies but they are our tragedies. We don?t need to justify our own history to anyone. Capisce?

What are you talking about?

Who said I was a "Chinese Nationalist"? I'm not a "Nationalist".

I'm a Chinese person, who is of the opinion that China suffered under Chairman Mao, and prospered under Deng Xiaoping. Which is a fact.

China's economy is now Capitalist, that is also a fact. We are even the number one exporter of goods in the world.

China started doing well after Deng Xiaoping's market reforms in the late 1970's. Since then we have consistently achieved double-digit economic growth.

It is also a fact that Chairman Mao's failed policies led to the deaths of tens of millions of Chinese people.

If you don't like these facts you don't have to read them.

I think it's important to learn from History, so we don't make these mistakes again. The most important thing to me is the welfare of the Chinese people. That is more important than the CCP.

 

[huzihaidao12]

提醒各位冷静，回国内掐去。

 

[chauism]

What are you talking about?

Who said I was a "Chinese Nationalist"? I'm not a "Nationalist".

I'm a Chinese person, who is of the opinion that China suffered under Chairman Mao, and prospered under Deng Xiaoping. Which is a fact.

China's economy is now Capitalist, that is also a fact. We are even the number one exporter of goods in the world.

China started doing well after Deng Xiaoping's market reforms in the late 1970's. Since then we have consistently achieved double-digit economic growth.

It is also a fact that Chairman Mao's failed policies led to the deaths of tens of millions of Chinese people.

If you don't like these facts you don't have to read them.

I think it's important to learn from History, so we don't make these mistakes again. The most important thing to me is the welfare of the Chinese people. That is more important than the CCP.

Mao's achievement and failure was a controversial topic. Even Deng said that what Mao did was "70% right and 30% wrong". Yes, his later policies caused many failures in China and resulted in some catastrophes. However does Mao deserved to be remembered only by his failures? In this world, most of world leaders especially those who had interacted with him won't disrespect Mao even if they were enemies at the time. The truth is you can not talk about the success of today's China without acknowledge the contribution of Mao in the early days although they also came with some setbacks.