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The Drums of War? Pentagon Provokes New Crisis With China

What more can I say, if that is what you think.
Nothing. What I said is grounded in international laws.

It was as if the French needed to be brought back. Ho-Sainteny Agreement to the French is nothing more than a piece of paper work.
Of course France was needed. And by the Viet Minh at that. The Viet Minh was willing to be violent in North Viet Nam but they were not powerful enough to be overwhelming in their violence. Why else did that pact occurred so quickly after WW II? Imperial Japan surrendered in Aug. 1945. The pact came in Mar. 1946. That meant the Viet Minh was desperate. The Vietnamese people was ready for independence and they were looking at options. The Viet Minh with that pact denied the Vietnamese those options.

Then what was he so afraid of the all Vietnamese election? If communists in the North was so oppressive, don't you think the people will be on his side. The election will actually prove to be beneficial to him? The election would be able to tell which one the Vietnamese people want to grant their power to.

Those words in the previous post were my word expect last sentence, but it is what I want to say.
The votes from North Viet Nam would be suspect. The communists have a reputation for violence they learned from the Chinese. You think Ho and the Viet Minh allowed the North Vietnamese people alternatives before that UN sanctioned 'election'? :lol:
 
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Mao's achievement and failure was a controversial topic. Even Deng said that what Mao did was "70% right and 30% wrong". Yes, his later policies caused many failures in China and resulted in some catastrophes. However does Mao deserved to be remembered only by his failures? In this world, most of world leaders especially those who had interacted with him won't disrespect Mao even if they were enemies at the time. The truth is you can not talk about the success of today's China without acknowledge the contribution of Mao in the early days although they also came with some setbacks.

Yes Mao did have some good achievements, and he was a brilliant military commander.

However I think he made too many mistakes. Millions of Chinese people died because of his failed policies.

I will always think that it was "Deng Xiaoping" who did the most for the Chinese people.

His market reforms have raised hundreds of millions of Chinese people out of poverty. No one else has such an achievement.
 
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Nothing. What I said is grounded in international laws.

That actually remind of of someone said once before. "Every once in a while... every once in a while, there's a day with an absolute right and an absolute wrong, but those days almost always include body counts. "

Of course France was needed. And by the Viet Minh at that. The Viet Minh was willing to be violent in North Viet Nam but they were not powerful enough to be overwhelming in their violence. Why else did that pact occurred so quickly after WW II? Imperial Japan surrendered in Aug. 1945. The pact came in Mar. 1946. That meant the Viet Minh was desperate. The Vietnamese people was ready for independence and they were looking at options. The Viet Minh with that pact denied the Vietnamese those options.
Yes, it was as if it was up to Ho Chi Minh or Emperor Bao Dai to decide the future of Indochine after WW II. Also as if the French needed someone to invite them back to Algeria when WW II was over. I guess the French forgot to tell you
090617_movies_terminator_3.jpg
when they left before 1945.

After the war, France petitioned for the nullification of the 1938 Franco-Siamese Treaty and attempted to reassert itself in the region, but came into conflict with the Viet Minh, a coalition of Communist and Vietnamese nationalists under French-educated dissident Ho Chi Minh. During World War II, the United States had supported the Viet Minh in resistance against the Japanese; the group had been in control of the countryside since the French gave way in March 1945.

After persuading Emperor Bảo Đại to abdicate in his favour, on September 2, 1945 President Ho declared independence for the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. But before September's end, a force of British, French, and Indian soldiers, along with captured Japanese troops, restored French control. Bitter fighting ensued in the First Indochina War. In 1950 Ho again declared an independent Democratic Republic of Vietnam, which was recognized by the fellow Communist governments of China and the Soviet Union. Fighting lasted until March 1954, when the Viet Minh won the decisive victory against French forces at the gruelling Battle of Dien Bien Phu.

Vietnam

The votes from North Viet Nam would be suspect. The communists have a reputation for violence they learned from the Chinese. You think Ho and the Viet Minh allowed the North Vietnamese people alternatives before that UN sanctioned 'election'?
By the same token, Eastern European countries would still be under the communist governments right now.
 
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Yes Mao did have some good achievements, and he was a brilliant military commander.

However I think he made too many mistakes. Millions of Chinese people died because of his failed policies.

I will always think that it was "Deng Xiaoping" who did the most for the Chinese people.

His market reforms have raised hundreds of millions of Chinese people out of poverty. No one else has such an achievement.

Then do you think the lives of Chinese would be better under the leadership of KMT? Don't use Taiwan as an example, because they are two difference animals in size and complexities for comparison.
 
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I think people should keep in mind the "boxer revolution" and the several opium wars. the colonial empires wanted the Chinese as slaves like the "natives" of their own colonies. The "permitted" Japanese aggression since it suited them. It was the movement of which Mao was a part which released the chinese people from the shackles of warlordism and exploitation. A lot of destruction accompanied the chinese quest for freedom but they are close to achieving their goal of prosperity free from foreign exploitation.
 
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By your argument, then US had very good legal ground and a prefect excuse to invade Afghanistan or any other countries that they suspect harbouring terrorists. Same applies to China, if any country is harboring or provide any assistance to the enemy of the state, then it is prefectly legal for China just to carpet bomb the hell out of it.

As regarding Ho Chi Minh, who was the one that done most of the fighting in First Indochina War, and drove the French out of Vietnam. After the war, who was the one refused to enter into negotiations with North Vietnam about holding nationwide elections in 1956, as had been stipulated by the Geneva Conference, would eventually lead to war breaking out again in South Vietnam in 1959 - the Second Indochina War.

Argument aside, there is one question I want to ask you though.
How much do you know about Trident II/D5 missile?
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Lets say this morning Al Quada flys planes into
Shanghai World Financial Center and the Jin Mao Tower in Shanghai murdering 3000 Chinese in cold blood as they set down to work, and the the country they are from refuses to turn them over or help with their capture and provides them protection.

What do you think China would do? If its nothing I do admire your restraint, if not your courage. Do you think its has something to do with the genocide of nearly 100 million chineses that took place over the last 80 years that now makes China take such a moral high ground now days.
 
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What do you think we still have a "Control economy"?

No... we embraced Capitalism several decades ago, why do you think our economy is doing so well now?

Chinese economic reform - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think a lot of it is pent up demand. I am not sure it is that you have every thing just right or that your economic system is better then every one elses. I have a neighbor that is an engineer that just built a plant in China, he told me the workers in the dead of winter would ride a bike for hour to work,, work 12 hours and ride a bike an hour home and would do that 7 days a week.

I doubt if that is going to last forever.

I like the fact that the Chinese economy is doing so well I think its better for you and is best thing for world in general and that includes the USA.
 
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Lets say this morning Al Quada flys planes into
Shanghai World Financial Center and the Jin Mao Tower in Shanghai murdering 3000 Chinese in cold blood as they set down to work, and the the country they are from refuses to turn them over or help with their capture and provides them protection.

What do you think China would do? If its nothing I do admire your restraint, if not your courage. Do you think its has something to do with the genocide of nearly 100 million chineses that took place over the last 80 years that now makes China take such a moral high ground now days.

If you apply this principle to everything, where does it lead to then. China could legally according to international law attack US or India for this matter back in the later 50's when CIA was sponsoring and arming Dalai Lama for armed uprising in Tibet, and later he got refugee in India. Afghanistan was permitted by most of countried in the world, where as the bombing of Cambodia was not. That is what made the difference. The bombing of Cambodia was not even very legal according to the US congress, and War Powers Resolution was passed later to address the loophole.

100 million genocide????
You know what genocide means?
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
Basically you are saying Mao's failed policies' was deliberately aimed at systematic killing of its people. While you at this, why don't you add the number of natural death in China to it, let alone as recently as 1950, China's population was a mere 563 million. Your insistence on the fallacy of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" is admirable.
 
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Lets say this morning Al Quada flys planes into
Shanghai World Financial Center and the Jin Mao Tower in Shanghai murdering 3000 Chinese in cold blood as they set down to work, and the the country they are from refuses to turn them over or help with their capture and provides them protection.

What do you think China would do? If its nothing I do admire your restraint, if not your courage. Do you think its has something to do with the genocide of nearly 100 million chineses that took place over the last 80 years that now makes China take such a moral high ground now days.

What do you think we have the idea? U.S. connivance separatists(East Turkistan), thousands of Chinese were killed. In fact, "HAN"and other nations far more than a hundred people were killed in the "7.5." The Chinese government reduced the number for fear of causing domestic anger.Thousands of Chinese people killed by mob, back in a pool of blood. How do you think China should do?

Bias and Deceit in Coverage of Urumqi Riots
 
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http://web.aanet.com.au/tplatform/Urumqi.html
Bias and Deceit in Coverage of Urumqi Riots

偏见以及乌鲁木齐暴动的欺骗性报道

When millionaire Australian executive, Stern Hu, was arrested in China for bribery and stealing state secrets the mainstream Australian media churned out anti-China propaganda on overdrive. The media did not even leave open the possibility that the Rio Tinto boss was actually guilty. Instead , they speculated that he was either detained to teach Rio Tinto a lesson for refusing to accept the investment offer of Chinese state-owned Chinalco or was arrested to intimidate Rio Tinto and BHP into accepting China's calls for lower iron ore prices. The Rupert Murdoch- owned The Australian newspaper led the charge against the Peoples Republic of China (PRC). A 23 July article was headlined, "Don't Kowtow to Beijing bully" and declared: "Only a fool could imagine that Hu's arrest was anything other than a complete political set -up. "An earlier July 13 article by The Australian'S foreign editor insisted that, "It is important, analytically, not to get caught up in the proceduralism of the Chinese legal system. There is no rule of law in China." Or rather, the Western media has no interest in the facts !
当百万富翁----澳大利亚的高管胡士泰因在中国行贿以及窃取国家机密被逮捕时,澳大利亚的主流媒体迅速炮制出大量反华报道。媒体甚至没有针对“力拓集团的老板实际上是有罪的”进行报道的可能。他们反而猜测他被拘留,要么是为拒绝中国国铝优惠投资的力拓上一课;或者是威胁力拓和BHP(澳大利亚布洛肯山控股有限公司)接受中国较低的铁矿石出价。鲁伯特·梅铎( Rupert Murdoch)掌控的澳大利亚人报(The Australian)率先归责于中国。7月23日,一篇头条新闻的标题为“不要对北京的欺压低头”,并公然表态称:“傻瓜都知道,胡锦涛的逮捕完全是建立于政治环境中的”。

更早以前的7月13日,澳大利亚人报外国新闻编辑则在一篇文章中坚称:“理性分析很重要,不要陷入中国的司法体制,中国的法律没有规则可言”。或者说,西方媒体并没有关注事实。



Such press coverage about the PRC is hardly new. The Western mainstream media's hostility to the Chinese state goes back a long time. It goes back almost 60 years - to the time that Mao Tse Tung's Communist Party achieved political power in China. That was the moment that the Western media started crusading against Beijing. In the last year and a half, the media drive against the PRC has again gone up another gear. The Western press feared that a successfully hosted Olympic Games in Beijing would give socialistic China more international sympathy . So they sought to tarnish the PRC in the lead up to the Games. As a coalition of anti-communists, from hardcore right-wingers to ignorant small-l liberals, mobilized to sabotage the Beijing Olympics torch relays in Western cities, the mainstream media did everything possible to encourage these anti-communist protests. Then, when at the 24 April 2008 Canberra leg of the torch relay, the anti-PRC lot were numerically overwhelmed by Chinese students carrying the pro-communist, red PRC flag, the Western media screamed like sore losers. They ludicrously claimed that the international students who were so vibrantly and passionately participating in the pro-PRC demonstration were forced to attend the rally by the Chinese Embassy. The 2008 ANZAC Day edition of The Australian cried that, "Beijing suppressed freedom of expression in the heart of our democracy."

这种涉及中国的新闻报道才刚开始。西方主流媒体对中国的敌意可追溯至很久以前。这差不多可以追溯近60年的时间----那时侯毛泽东的共产党在中国夺得政权。那一刻起,西方媒体展开了对北京的口诛笔伐。在过去的一年半里,媒体对中国的敲打再次上扬。西方媒体担心,北京举办一届成功的奥运会将会给社会主义中国带来更多的国际支持。因此,他们试图在奥运会开始前搞破坏。这些由顽固的右翼分子组成的反共联盟,动员少数愚昧无知的自由派在西方城市破坏北京奥运会火炬接力,主流媒体也尽一切努力去鼓舞这些反共产主义的抗议活动。接下来,当2008年4月24日,火炬接力来到堪培拉站时,反华人士被大量拿着中国国旗的爱国学生搞得不知所措,西方媒体像输不起的失败者一样咆哮着。他们滑稽的宣称,这些如此鲜明和充满激情的留学生和亲华的国际示威者是被中国大使馆强迫参加集会的。澳大利亚人报2008澳洲(2008ANZAC)版的主编叫嚷道:“北京镇压了我们的民主核心----言论自由”。


The month prior to this Olympic torch relay leg, the Australian, American and European media had bombarded their home populations with distorted reports about the Tibet issue following right-wing riots in the PRC's Tibetan Autonomous Region. These riots had been unleashed by supporters of the Western-backed Dalai Lama.
Although the pro-Dalai forces clothed themselves in the robes of Tibetan separatism, their primary purpose was not so much to set up an independent Tibet but to create a Tibet independent of Communist Party rule. The anti-communist rioters represent the interests of the unrepentant families of the former feudal ruling elite of Tibet who long for the previous Dalai Lama-ruled days - days when they had the mass of brutally oppressed slaves and serfs toiling for them and answering to their every whim. They hate the Chinese communists for liberating the serfs and slaves and hate even more the former Tibetan serfs and slaves who now dominate the provincial government of the Tibetan Autonomous Region. The March 2008 riots saw the anti-PRC forces rampaging through the streets of the Tibetan capital, Lhasa, burning and hacking to death 18 civilians. They especially targeted non-Tibetan people - people who make up just small minorities in the Tibetan Autonomous Region. The pro-Dalai Lama mobs, for example, burnt down the Grand Mosque of Tibet that is frequented by the Hui Muslim minority. In response to all these attacks, the PRC security forces quite naturally mobilized to protect the population and stop the violent anti-communist forces. However, the Western media skillfully combined reports of the deaths in Tibet and news of the PRC security crackdown to give the false impression that the deaths were caused by the PRC police and military. In addition to such deceptions, the mainstream media also parroted as fact statements from the Dalai Lama - that were later proved to be complete lies - that the PRC forces had opened fire and killed large numbers of Tibetans.
奥运火炬接力活动的前一个月,中国西藏自治区发生了右翼骚乱,澳大利亚、美国和欧洲的媒体为他们当地的人提供了涉及西藏问题的歪曲报道。这些骚乱是由有西方撑腰的达赖喇嘛的拥护者发动的。尽管亲达赖势力给自己披上了“藏独”的外衣,但他们的首要目的不是去建立一个独立的西藏,而是要建立一个没有共产党统治的西藏。反共暴徒象征着旧西藏顽固不化的封建精英家族的利益。旧西藏------很久以前达赖喇嘛统治的日子,他们残酷的压迫农奴和奴隶为他们劳动,去应付他们的每一个怪念头。他们不愿中国共产党解放农奴和奴隶,更不愿当初的农奴和奴隶管辖着现今的西藏自治区政府。2008年3月的骚乱见证着反华势力在西藏首府拉萨街头的撒野行径,这场骚乱导致18人死亡。

他们专挑在西藏自治区的少数民族-----非藏族人。亲达赖喇嘛的暴徒,譬如烧毁西藏宏伟的伊斯兰清真寺,回族穆斯林少数族裔常常进出这些寺庙。为应对所有的袭击,中国必然要动用安全部队去保护人民并阻止暴力的反共势力。然而,西方媒体巧妙的将西藏的伤亡和中国部队的打击等信息组合在一起进行报道,让人民错误的认识到这些伤亡是由中国警察和军队造成的。除了这种欺骗性报道,主流媒体也像个应声虫一样把达赖喇嘛的声明当作真相进行报道,这些声明指出中国部队开枪杀死了大量的西藏人,但随后便被证明是假的。

 


When similar but even more lethal Region) last July, the Western media again deceitfully sought to create the impression that most of the killings were caused by the PRC security forces. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the 197 people killed in the turmoil in Urumqi were innocent civilians murdered by hard line anti-communists within the right-wing riots took place in Urumqi (the capital of China's Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous ethnic Uyghur community on the night of July 5. The anti-PRC mobs in particular targeted non-Uyghur minorities within the Autonomous Region as well as those Uygurs with minority friends. Of the 156 dead people who have been identified as innocent civilians (29 victims were yet to be identified at the time of writing) 134 were Han - the majority community in China but a minority in the Autonomous Region - 11 were from the Muslim Hui minority and one was from the Man group.


去年7月,类似的甚至是更致命的右翼骚乱在乌鲁木齐(中国新疆维吾尔自治区首府)发生。西方媒体再次进行欺骗报道,企图让人们认为大屠杀是由中国军队造成的。实际上,被杀的197人当中,绝大多数是死于乌鲁木齐暴乱的无辜平民,这场暴乱是由维吾尔社会中的强硬反共派在7月5日晚发动的。反华暴徒尤其针对自治区内的非维族人,以及和少数族裔是朋友的维族人。156名死者被认为是无辜平民(29名受害者没有确切及时的报道),其中134人是汉族人-----汉族占该国的大多数,但在维族自治区属于少数民族,11人是回族穆斯林,还有1名武警部队的。

 
In response to the July 5 killings, some enraged Han people responded with racial violence of their own. These Han chauvinist mobs attacked Uyghur people. Ten Uyghur people are among the civilian dead (it is not known how many of them were killed by the rightwing Uyghur mobs and how many by the Han chauvinists.) In such a situation of bloody inter-ethnic violence, the PRC authorities had no choice but to crack down on the murdering mobs. Although the Chinese police were slow to deal with the initial riot, they eventually mobilized in the required big numbers and responded appropriately. PRC police came down hard against the Han vigilante mobs and dispersed many of them with tear gas. In the course of stopping ethnic-based murder attempts on both sides taking place before their eyes, the PRC security forces shot dead twelve of the people committing violent attacks. However, the Western media did its best to make their audience believe that most of the 197 people killed in the riots were merely peaceful protesters mowed down by Chinese security forces.
 
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In any case, revenge is not a Chinese culture, we also know that the real enemy is not an ordinary American people, however, Americans seem happy to kill more civilians, this is your culture?
 
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Where international law? When the United States to support terrorists.

Well, according to some people here, China has every legal right granted by the power of International Law to use military action to attack whoever is behind this.
 
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In any event, the world has a number of misunderstandings of China, even if one objectively report the article, China is now really not communist, if you know enough about China that China can even close to the anti-communist. So the world understand China, this is a big problem.
 
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