The Drums of War? Pentagon Provokes New Crisis With China

[huzihaidao12]

And the US in 1979 was far better than both the Soviet Union and China. Who collapsed spectacularly and ignobly? Who felt compelled to change after that collapse? So yes, the communist experiment failed. The world is always comparing one thing against another. That is our nature. Without prosperous democracies, then communist regimes can claim their successes. But that is not the case. I have been to East Berlin when it existed and when I see people look at my Western clothes with envy, I know they are quietly comparing their miserable society against the one I came from.

You do not know what I want to say? I simply tell you, "right to life" and "development rights", China did not have them before 1949. If you do not know the history of China, it said up to take a long time, too long.
You also do not know the history of 1949-1979, though we experienced a famine, but also has many achievements, is a power to be achieved.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Some things can not discuss with you, 1959 is the starting point of China's series of tragedies, but we do not know what happened during that time, the Chinese BBS are many arguments, here have recently some found , however, is not yet enough to tell you.

Understanding communist of China history, there are several time points ,1949,1953-1956, 1959,1966,1979, not simply as one China. It is different in China.

 

[chauism]

If you have one dollar and it becomes two dollars you have a 100% increase. Tell me if China has a percapita GDP of $4000 and grows at 8 percent a year, and the USA has a percapita GDP of 48000 and grows at 3 percent a year, how long will it take for China to catch up to the USA.

Gross domestic product (GDP) measures the economic aggregate of a country, while per-capita GDP assesses the prosperity degree of the country. In the economic circle, people, in most cases, take per-capita GDP as an important index of dividing economic development stages

China has about 600 million people living on a dollar per day. That has the potential to be a real problem is the reason for the censorship in China, The chinese goverment is scared to death of what might happen if they become unhappy.

There are a lot more countries with less GDP per capita than China has, how are they doing.

Anyways, if you really want to measure the per capita for living standards then PPP will be a better measurement, because one dollar in China has different purchasing power than in US. China's is $6,675. Shanghai has a nominal GDP per capita of $11,361 and still growing at 8.7% annually.

600 Million??? Are you confusing China with someone else? Or this is the number China has lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years? Do some research would you?
Poverty in China

 

[chauism]

And lies will not help yours.
BS. South Vietnam was no paragon of democratic virtues but the people overall had better living standards, more freedoms including a more diverse press, better education, better health, and so on...
.

Did those better living standards applied to all of its people or just a few?

BS. The 1968 Tet Offensive, of which I lived through, proved wrong that myth. The people did not rally to the communist cause as the North Vietnamese Politburo predicted. In fact, the NVA's top general, Vo Nguyen Giap, actually opposed the planned offensive because he felt that communist support in the South was not as popular as the Politburo believed. Giap was correct as the NVA/VC offensive was defeated.

Oh yes, the watershed of tet Offensive. Yes, it was not successful as a country wide uprising as Poliburo predicted, but you can not say there was no uprising at all. As you said it was not as popular as Poliburo believed. It was still popular to a small degree.

BS. After the 1968 Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong, which was the guerrilla arm of the NVA, was nearly wiped out in the South. This proved that the Viet Minh, which has its origin in the North and was murderous towards non-communist nationalists, did not have popular support as communist propaganda portrayed.

I can agree to that, but how about in the beginning.

BS. Of course differences in ideology was the motivator for the war in the first place.

I was not talking about the cause of war.

[And South Vietnam was de facto an independent state. Independence was what the Vietnamese wanted.

As if North Vietnam was not independent.

Yes...Communism set countries back. The difference rates at which they recognize their error and change their ways does not negate the fact that communism is a failure.

Yes, communism as an economic system had failed because it is against human incentive.

com·mu·nism (kmy-nzm)
n.
1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

communism

 

[gambit]

Did those better living standards applied to all of its people or just a few?

Now this is the straw man argument here. You criticized SVN under the Diem regime as if somehow SVN was either the same or worse off than NVN. You are wrong. SVN was better off than NVN for many reasons.

Oh yes, the watershed of tet Offensive. Yes, it was not successful as a country wide uprising as Poliburo predicted, but you can not say there was no uprising at all. As you said it was not as popular as Poliburo believed. It was still popular to a small degree.

It pretty much debunked your belief and claim that communism was the preferred in SVN.

I can agree to that, but how about in the beginning.

The Viet Cong? Without NVA support via the Ho Chi Minh Trail, which violated the sovereignty of two countries, the VC in SVN would have been wiped out early in the war.

I was not talking about the cause of war.

You cannot talk about the Vietnam War without these ideological differences.

As if North Vietnam was not independent.

Did I say it was not? If anything, NVN was even more dependent upon China and the Soviet Union than SVN was on the US. Chinese dominance over NVN was well known and acknowledged, even by top NVA officials, like this man...

Amazon.com: Following Ho Chi Minh: The Memoirs of a North Vietnamese Colonel (9780824822330): Bui Tin: Books

Colonel Bui Tin was the NVA's chief propagandist and the man who accepted SVN's surrender. He became disillusioned with communism and it ruined the country. His biography has many instances on how Chinese soldiers was quite the ideological enforcers in NVN and among the NVA ranks.

When it comes to the Vietnam War, you and the others simply do not know what you are talking about.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

There are a lot more countries with less GDP per capita than China has, how are they doing.

Anyways, if you really want to measure the per capita for living standards then PPP will be a better measurement, because one dollar in China has different purchasing power than in US. China's is $6,675. Shanghai has a nominal GDP per capita of $11,361 and still growing at 8.7% annually.

600 Million??? Are you confusing China with someone else? Or this is the number China has lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years? Do some research would you?
Poverty in China

The Limits of a Smaller, Poorer China
Dr. Albert Keidel
Financial Times, November 14, 2007
Resources Translations
中文 In a little-noticed mid-summer announcement, the Asian Development Bank presented official survey results indicating China's economy is smaller and poorer than established estimates say. The announcement cited the first authoritative measure of China's size using purchasing power parity methods. The results tell us that when the World Bank announces its expected PPP data revisions later this year, China's economy will turn out to be 40 per cent smaller than previously stated.
The Limits of a Smaller, Poorer China - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

If I am not mistaken China has been using the same provety line figures for 20 years, doesnt the cost of living ever go up in China.

 

[huzihaidao12]

The Limits of a Smaller, Poorer China
Dr. Albert Keidel
Financial Times, November 14, 2007
Resources Translations
中文 In a little-noticed mid-summer announcement, the Asian Development Bank presented official survey results indicating China's economy is smaller and poorer than established estimates say. The announcement cited the first authoritative measure of China's size using purchasing power parity methods. The results tell us that when the World Bank announces its expected PPP data revisions later this year, China's economy will turn out to be 40 per cent smaller than previously stated.
The Limits of a Smaller, Poorer China - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

If I am not mistaken China has been using the same provety line figures for 20 years, doesnt the cost of living ever go up in China.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQ4MDExMzA0.html

 

[chauism]

Now this is the straw man argument here. You criticized SVN under the Diem regime as if somehow SVN was either the same or worse off than NVN. You are wrong. SVN was better off than NVN for many reasons.

Well, for the have not, yes life is better in the north for them, for the haves of course they are better off in the South.

It pretty much debunked your belief and claim that communism was the preferred in SVN.

I did not say it was preferred by majority, if that was not clear.

The Viet Cong? Without NVA support via the Ho Chi Minh Trail, which violated the sovereignty of two countries, the VC in SVN would have been wiped out early in the war.

We had this argument before on who Violated sovereignty of Cambodia and Laos, didn't we? And no, I was not only referring to Viet Cong.

You cannot talk about the Vietnam War without these ideological differences.

As I said, I was not even talking about the war per se.

Did I say it was not? If anything, NV was even more dependent upon China and the Soviet Union than SVN was on the US. Chinese dominance over NVN was well known and acknowledged, even by top NVA officials, like this man...

As if a dissident and a traitor's words can be trusted. If it is needed, he is capable of selling his mother for the life in the west. I deeply believe that "Betrayal is like sex, once one has had it for the first time, then it will be much faster for him to have it for the second time."

While on the subject, why don't you tell me more about party first secretary Truong Chinh during the Vietnam war.

 

[chauism]

The Limits of a Smaller, Poorer China
Dr. Albert Keidel
Financial Times, November 14, 2007
Resources Translations
中文 In a little-noticed mid-summer announcement, the Asian Development Bank presented official survey results indicating China's economy is smaller and poorer than established estimates say. The announcement cited the first authoritative measure of China's size using purchasing power parity methods. The results tell us that when the World Bank announces its expected PPP data revisions later this year, China's economy will turn out to be 40 per cent smaller than previously stated.
The Limits of a Smaller, Poorer China - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

If I am not mistaken China has been using the same provety line figures for 20 years, doesnt the cost of living ever go up in China.

The measurement of poverty was not done by China, it is done by world bank.

That is why World Bank is using PPP of $1 as the guild for measurement of poverty. It does not contradict with the article you have cited at all if you actually read the article, which I seriously doubt because in the article it said 500 million below poverty line was in 1980 to 1990's figure even after the readjustment. It is compatible with statement of "China’s sustained growth fueled historically unprecedented poverty reduction. The World Bank uses a poverty line based on household real consumption (including consumption of own-produced crops and other goods), set at $1 per day measured at Purchasing Power Parity. In most low-income countries this amount is sufficient to guarantee each person about 2000 calories of nutrition per day, plus other basic necessities. In 2007, this line corresponds to about 900 RMB per year. Based on household surveys, the poverty rate in China in 1981 was 64% of the population. This rate declined to 10% in 2004, indicating that about 500 million people have climbed out of poverty during this period"

So as usual you are wrong in many accounts again.


Just to shred some light here for you, China's PPP or Big Mac index 10 years ago was almost $3 PPP = $1 Nominal, look where it is now.

 

[gambit]

Well, for the have not, yes life is better in the north for them, for the haves of course they are better off in the South.

Then why was there a constant North-South flow of refugees and not the other way around? Do not make things up.

I did not say it was preferred by majority, if that was not clear.

Why not? Your argument is inconsistent. If life in SVN for the 'have-nots' is so terrible and it was so much better in the North, why communism was not preferred by the majority? Your own ignorance is creating traps for you about this subject.

We had this argument before on who Violated sovereignty of Cambodia and Laos, didn't we? And no, I was not only referring to Viet Cong.

And you were talking so much nonsense that I chose to ignore it. North Viet Nam had no right to violate the territorial sovereignties of Laos and Cambodia to support a guerrilla war in SVN.

As if a dissident and a traitor's words can be trusted.

If that is the case, then may be Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh should never have been trusted in the first place. Here...

Ho?Sainteny agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Ho–Sainteny agreement was an agreement made March 6, 1946 between Ho Chi Minh, President of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, and Jean Sainteny, Special Envoy of France. It recognized Vietnam as a "Free State" within the French Union, and permitted France to continue stationing troops in North Vietnam until 1951.

There were so much non-communist nationalists in NVN that in order to get rid of them, the Viet Minh decided to make a deal with Viet Nam's former colonial master -- France. Once France was back in military force, France and the Viet Minh proceeded to slaughter the non-communist oppositions. So who was the original traitor?

While on the subject, why don't you tell me more about party first secretary Truong Chinh during the Vietnam war.

You are not ready based upon what I have seen so far.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

I would like the number "75 million" of the source and how it was calculated?

One Source:
DEATH BY GOVERNMENT: GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER

Another Source:

The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Washington - The planners of the victims of communism memorial dedicated Tuesday in Washington based the figure of an estimated 100 million political deaths under communism on the book by French scholars, 'The Black book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression,' published by Harvard University.

Another interesting site.
20th Century Atlas - Alphabetical List of War, Massacre, Tyranny and Genocide

 

[huzihaidao12]

One Source:
DEATH BY GOVERNMENT: GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER

Another Source:

The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Washington - The planners of the victims of communism memorial dedicated Tuesday in Washington based the figure of an estimated 100 million political deaths under communism on the book by French scholars, 'The Black book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression,' published by Harvard University.

Another interesting site.
20th Century Atlas - Alphabetical List of War, Massacre, Tyranny and Genocide

These are a joke, the real source are first-hand material, not the conclusion kind of article, not a scheduled conclusion，That is not the practice of Chinese BBS. Find the weather forecast year, the newspaper of that time, local history, rather than those based on propaganda article.

I guess you had to come up with these things, really the case.

 

[huzihaidao12]

There again I do not want someone stupid enough to confuse the famine death and the death of the Cultural Revolution, the Cultural Revolution, only about 2,000 deaths. Famine has caused huge casualties, mainly farmers. The object of the Cultural Revolution are government officials and intellectuals, do you think what were they a total number of people in China that time? So, not to mention some stupid things.

 

[chauism]

Then why was there a constant North-South flow of refugees and not the other way around? Do not make things up.

Are you sure about that?

Why not? Your argument is inconsistent. If life in SVN for the 'have-nots' is so terrible and it was so much better in the North, why communism was not preferred by the majority? Your own ignorance is creating traps for you about this subject.

So tell me do you know the number of those have-nots. I do not. Saying in absolution that there was none is wrong already. Also, tell me how many people were purged by the SV government also?

And you were talking so much nonsense that I chose to ignore it. North Viet Nam had no right to violate the territorial sovereignties of Laos and Cambodia to support a guerrilla war in SVN.

"Prince Norodom Sihanouk had proclaimed Cambodia neutral since 1955, but the communists used Cambodian soil as a base and Sihanouk tolerated their presence, because he wished to avoid being drawn into a wider regional conflict."
How could it be a violation when it was tolerated.

How about Operation Menu then, tell me that was invited instead, remember Kent State.

If that is the case, then may be Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh should never have been trusted in the first place. Here...

That I actually agree.

You are not ready based upon what I have seen so far.

Just tell me as well as the others why he lost the position of first secretary toward the end of 1956.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

There again I do not want someone stupid enough to confuse the famine death and the death of the Cultural Revolution, the Cultural Revolution, only about 2,000 deaths. Famine has caused huge casualties, mainly farmers. The object of the Cultural Revolution, government officials and intellectuals, do you think they were a total number of people in China? So, not to mention some stupid things.

Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.

Wouldnt you considered those people murdred by communism.

Mao's social-political programs, such as the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, are blamed for costing millions of lives, causing severe famine and damage to the culture, society and economy of China. Mao's policies and political purges from 1949 to 1976 are widely believed to have caused the deaths of between 50 to 70 million people.[2][3

Mao Zedong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia