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TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

... What did you mean by the phrase "has not been confirmed"?


Confirmed in the meaning that GE announced itself such a deal or even announced any details similar to what they did with the engines for the KFX. In both cases they announced the contract signed and when the engines were delivered.

In case for the F110s for the KFX something similar does not exist ... at least AFAIK.
 
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I don't think you are ignorant enough to believe Financial Times is not a crediable source for UK industry & business news. I am quoting from Reuters which is basing their story on the FT report

"Talks between Turkey’s Kale Group and Rolls-Royce, ran into problems last year because of a dispute over the sharing of intellectual property and the involvement of a Qatari-Turkish company"

"Rolls-Royce has all but abandoned efforts to win the bid for the fifth generation fighter aircraft after failing to find a compromise, FT added, citing people familiar with the matter."

That sounds very explicit and blunt and it is essentially confirmed by Turkey which "is keen to revive talks with Rolls-Royce ".

I'd be appreciated if you could provide any sources, preferrably from Rolls-Royce & the UK government, that the dispute over IP issues is solved and the company is working with Turkey for a turbofan engine.


I guess you don't understand English. The first phase of the project started in 2017, Rolls Royce has not withdrawn from a project that has not started, currently they have completed the conceptual design not with TRMotor and their partner companies, Rolls Royce just with Kale take this job, but the design does not have to be completed for the beginning of the Phase 2 phase, the negotiations have started much earlier. With your "high intelligence" like a parrot, you send the news 1.5 and a half years ago as if it was a new event that had never been spoken here. I tell you that the problem has been resolved and the project will be transferred to TRMotor in the coming months and I am giving my own intelligence. I don't know how these things happen in your wonderful "democratic country", but when a problem is solved in our country, we don't give a source to news agencies by shouting "I give my goooood news, we have starteeeeed", Some dudes needs to be asked first to get information about it.before putting the news 1.5 and a half years ago in front of me and asking a wonderful question like "what is your source" when it is claimed otherwise. You can use your intelligence.
Confirmed in the meaning that GE announced itself such a deal or even announced any details similar to what they did with the engines for the KFX. In both cases they announced the contract signed and when the engines were delivered.

In case for the F110s for the KFX something similar does not exist ... at least AFAIK.


You're too inclined to talk about unfamiliar topics, sorry we don't have extraordinary resources for you in Chinese / German, but the live broadcast announced that the engines for the Prototype had already been delivered.


Sorry I couldn't take a picture in front of to the motors, I hope it satisfies.

 
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You're too inclined to talk about unfamiliar topics, sorry we don't have extraordinary resources for you in Chinese / German, but the live broadcast announced that the engines for the Prototype had already been delivered.


Sorry I couldn't take a picture in front of to the motors, I hope it satisfies.




I have no issues with ironic replies, but please read my question again!

Me and others, who are less enthusiastic and optimistic towards this project would agree, there are reports, but not from General Electric as they did !

1602781886587.png



To be honest ... I don't rate official reports from the "Turkish Defence Industry" highly reliable or trustworthy.
 
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I guess you don't understand English. The first phase of the project started in 2017, Rolls Royce has not withdrawn from a project that has not started, currently they have completed the conceptual design not with TRMotor and their partner companies, Rolls Royce just with Kale take this job, but the design does not have to be completed for the beginning of the Phase 2 phase, the negotiations have started much earlier. With your "high intelligence" like a parrot, you send the news 1.5 and a half years ago as if it was a new event that had never been spoken here. I tell you that the problem has been resolved and the project will be transferred to TRMotor in the coming months and I am giving my own intelligence. I don't know how these things happen in your wonderful "democratic country", but when a problem is solved in our country, we don't give a source to news agencies by shouting "I give my goooood news, we have starteeeeed", Some dudes needs to be asked first to get information about it.before putting the news 1.5 and a half years ago in front of me and asking a wonderful question like "what is your source" when it is claimed otherwise. You can use your intelligence.

It is unfortunate that I am having a difficult time of understanding YOUR written English. Look, I am more than happy to be corrected and I appreicate how you try to share your information by using your limted language skills, but I wish your evidences were more affirmative than your heresays, especially when you are up against reputable sources such as FT & Reuters and the Turkish government which seemed very eager to discuss new terms of re-negotiation with Rolls-Royce less than a year ago.
 
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I have no issues with ironic replies, but please read my question again!

Me and others, who are less enthusiastic and optimistic towards this project would agree, there are reports, but not from General Electric as they did !

View attachment 679733


To be honest ... I don't rate official reports from the "Turkish Defence Industry" highly reliable or trustworthy.


If the video / live interviews of the CEO of the company that will supply the engine for the aircraft it will produce and the head of the SSM in the country in which it is located are not safe rate for you, you can go another country's topic in this forum.


If the question is the credibility of the website, I thought that the great German / Chinese intelligence would not be able to understand Turkish, so I gave a website source instead of a direct interview.

 
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If the video / live interviews of the CEO of the company that will supply the engine for the aircraft it will produce and the head of the SSM in the country in which it is located are not safe rate for you, you can go another country's topic in this forum.

Let me try it again ... not an announcement or claim by a Turkish representative; I kindly ask for a statement from GE or RR towards the current status be that either the delivery of F110 engines or the status of the RR-cooperation. Nothing more.

If the question is the credibility of the website, I thought that the great German / Chinese intelligence would not be able to understand Turkish, so I gave a website source instead of a direct interview.



There is no need to insult anyone who has an opinion you don't like especially since I never claimed my country as being the greatest or the best, or the one which can do anything (like many of your fellow countrymen constantly do) and the fact that I and others question official Turkish announcements and websites is probably due to the experience: So far nothing but big words.

It's similar to Russian announcements in the 1990s that they will have a fleet of 3 or more carrier battle groups, that they will have this and that ... and still nothing; not even an operational fifth generation type. Or similar to India,which still claims the Tejas is better than any Chinese fighter, that they can develop the Mk.2 within a few years and the AMCA only a bit later ... as such any scepticism is more than justified.

Anyway, I'm sure you will immediately come up with the argument, what has my own country archived so far and that the German military is a joke ... and I will reply; Yes, but that is not the point.

Point is, so far NONE of the Western major suppliers for the engines has confirmed what is constantly claimed in several Turkish state media announcements.
 
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Oh no not again. You know what? let's just stop talking about these matters all together for, say a year. We are drawing a parallel line between two arguments.

It is both true that :

1.) The Turkish media, organizations and businesses affiliated with the MMU project have claimed that they have already received F110 engines for the prototypes.

2.) GE on the other hand, has not confirmed this and has not released any information regarding this topic ever since TEI-GE consortium lost to TAEC few years ago which TAEC (Kale-RR) was also eventually met with the situation SgtGungHo mentioned in the previous page.

I didn't really expect that the sole source of info of RR's involvement in the domestic turbofan engine program was RadarGudumluMuhimmat's personal connection with one of the consultant of the TF-X or the engine program and I think it could be agreed that this is quite a weak source. Nonetheless, it is still a source which cannot be confirmed nor denied so we are again drawing a parallel.

@RadarGudumluMuhimmat
It is understandable that you are frustrated with the fact that foreign members of the forum are not believing what for you would arguably be the most credible source, TUSAS, TR Motor and SSB themselves but from our side it is equally frustrating because :

for one, GE has always published a press release regarding any kind of engine they are supplying regardless the domestic or foreign user and bar none of any service, be it the air force, the navy, some small business, etc. Having none of these for MMU is obviously sparking some doubts. Maybe they have sourced those F110s from the F-16s operated by the Turkish air force so who knows. We all know that there have been quite a lot of pilots including the F-16 pilots who have been purged after the coup so maybe TAF and SSB felt okay to just take out some engines from F-16s that are lacking pilots.

Also, you should understand that we are taking the official Turkish press release with pinch of salt because time and time across different forums, be it key publishing, f-16.net, you name it, there have been Turkish users claiming the time-schedule of MMU that were often criticized by the other members which were also based on the official MMU related announcements made by the TUSAS and SSB. Most notably, it was rather often claimed that the MMU's maiden flight was to take place on 2023. Obviously we all know how the program was vastly rescheduled over the last couple of years but that was the official schedule back then. It was often argued that the timeline is unrealistic which was then argued back that the "officials" are the ones who know the best concerning these matters. Same goes with Altay, which was and still is plagued by the engine issue and is still to be mass produced.


So let's stop drawing the parallel lines. We all know that the Turkish members will value the Turkish sources credible, especially when it's an official source and the Turkish members would also know that the foreign members are not thinking the same way. Both parties have justifiable reasons for it and it seems to be that there will be no confirmation for these information we are given. There are other things that we could talk about.
 
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Talking about other things, I have just noticed that the PDR is scheduled to be done in 2022. Normally the CDR takes over a year after PDR so that has to be sometime around late 2023 or early 2024. From what I know, the first prototype is to be completed by 2023, the centenary of the Republic of Turkey.

My source is the presentation done by TUSAS in 2018 when the program officially started. It's only been 2 years since then so I think that the information on the presentation is still valid. (https://c1.assets-cdn.io/event/3616/assets/8458919308-72b413a53a.pdf)

So it either means that the schedule is accelerated almost by a year or the forum members who talked about these had wrong information. Here's one example for these claims on this thread.

no one said tfx it will fly in 2023 . it will a rollout ceremony after then it will continue with ground test with ge 110 engine . i think hurjet and atak 2 will fly in 2023

This also makes sense comparing it to other jets like the F-22 or F-35 as it took both of them 6 years from YF-22 / X-35 till the completion of first EMD model. The official development of MMU started on September of 2018 so prototypes being completed in 2024 or 2025 makes ton of sense.

I also recall that Hurjet's maiden flight is scheduled to take place on 2023 which is a schedule that is delayed by a year due to Covid according to this news :


It seems like TAI has signed a new contract with Stirling Dynamics for technical assistance up to the critical design review phase.

However, we may take the article with a grain of salt as the article claims that the trainer jet is aimed to perform the first test flight of Hurjet in 2022 even though another article from the same media says that the first flight is delayed until 2023 due to Covid-19 by citing TAI General Manager and it seems like they have not decided on whether the trainer jet would feature a single engine or two engines.


It seems like Turkey is trying to fly something by 2023 regardless.

which I would rather call it a normalization, as there are sources showing that Hurjet's development only started a year earlier than MMU.

https://www.savunmasanayist.com/hurjet-projesinde-son-durum-ne/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hurjet
  • August 2020 CDR
  • August 2021 TRR/FTRR
  • February 2022 first flight
  • Twin engine design?!?

View attachment 617046

Too old picture. It's from beginnig of conceptual desing.


Here it is also shown that the plan back then was to complete CDR by last August but as we've seen from SgtGungHo's post above, the critical design was still going on in September, a month after the planned CDR. So I think this confirms the aforementioned delays.

Whatever the cause, we should then expect the CDR mid-late next year unless there are any further delays. It also makes me wonder if there were any effect of Covid to the MMU program if it did indeed affect the Hurjet's development schedule. This is the reason I think that the rescheduling was rather the normalization of the development plan as we haven't hear of any delays for the MMU as of yet. If MMU was indeed affected by Covid just like the Hurjet we could also expect it to be delayed for around a year.


What may also be the case is that the delay in Hurjet's maiden flight caused by Covid was concerning the engine, as there were tight travelling restrictions, so it would have been hard for the personnel of foreign engine suppliers, be it Klimov or Eurojet, as there were multiple sources mentioning one of them to power Hurjet's prototype, would not have been able to travel into Turkey nor would have it been possible for Turkish personnel to fly to UK/Germany or Russia. This furthermore could mean that MMU prototype is indeed powered by F110s from F-16s as there is no problem at all concerning Covid and travel restriction if they are sourcing those engines domestically. This can explain why there were no delays for MMU.

Of course these are all just a hot guess so I could be wrong but it's an interesting topic nonetheless.


So summarizing infos :

Official start of development of Hurjet - 2017 (T0)
Hurjet's planned CDR - 09.2020 (delayed due to Covid)
Hurjet's new schedule for CDR - probably around Q2/3 of 2021
Hurjet's maiden flight - 2023 (centenary of the Republic of Turkey, with either RD-33 or EJ200. More sources mention Ej200 so likely EJ200 but concerning recent diplomatic woes with Germany it is also very likely that Hurjet's prototype is powered by RD-33 variant)

Domestic turbofan engine will replace the foreign engine used for the prototype.

Official start of development of MMU - August/September 2018 (T0)
MMU's planned PDR - second half of 2022 (no delays announced as of yet)
MMU's schedule for CDR - probably late 2023
completion of first MMU EMD prototype - probably late 2024 or early 2025 (there were claims in this thread mentioning 2023 but highly unlikely)
MMU's maiden flight - 2025/2026 (F110s are announced to power the prototypes. It has also been claimed 5 engines were delivered to TAI for the prototypes)

Domestic turbofan engine will replace the foreign engine used for the prototype -The first run of the engine is planned to take place in 2026 and is planned to be ready for mass production by 2029. This means all the ground and flight testing complete, and the engine is ready to be certified for military use by 2029. 9 years from now. It is claimed that the total budget is in the region of $ 6 billion.

There are also claims RR is cooperating, providing TA and also on top of TEI, who is participating in form of TUSAS' stake in TR Motor, Kale is involved in the program as they have formerly teamed up with RR to form TAEC and have been participating in JSF partner program in Turkey as P&W's partner. TR Motor itself consists of shares owned by BMC, TAI and SSB. Majority stake lies on BMC who owns 55%. TAI(TUSAS) owns 35% of the company, who also owns majority stake of TEI, a JV with GE who manufactures the vast majority of gas turbine engines in use by the Turkish Armed Forces either by developing it themselves or licensing it from GE. Due to BMC, it is expected that there is a certain degree of capital investment from the Qataris concerning their oil money but not much has been made known. There have been reports that RR and the British government were subjecting against the involvement of the Qatari capital and this has been mentioned as point of conflict when the renegotiation was announced mid and late last year, along with disputes over IP rights among other disagreements.
 
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Look at this funny wannabe superpower of halflings' trolland of china. Trying to entertain us


Oh come on ... why always so offensive? If anyway posts something nice of that project you bash them as "Trying to entertain us" and if anyone asks a critical question or raises concern you bash them as "anti Turkey, ignorant foreigners" or even worse.... seems as if You always want to bash regardless what is posted? :hitwall:

"wannabe superpower of halflings' trolland of china" :omghaha: ... the funny part on this plain ignorant statement is that China already has a track record f successful developed fighter aircraft of different generations including firth generation types, that China has successfully mastered the development of several engine, while Turkey still tries. So, who is a "wannabe superpower"?
 
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I guess it's pointless to talk further until next year when the Hurjet will achieve its planned CDR. Of course it might get delayed further but we'll see.

Until then I expect nothing more to come out other than a few news concerning some contracts and MOUs between Turkish firms within Turkey or some interview with SSB personnel. If TUSAS releases final design of the Hurjet next year that would be something.

Also, I hope there will be some sort of a confirmation regarding the RR debacle if what RadarGudumluMuhimmat has claimed is indeed true. Be it RR press release, a news, preferably from Britain not Turkey, transaction of huge sum from Turkey to RR or whatever.

It's a shame that not much is known about the details of the program other than the engines.

Like the number of TRM on the AESA, peak output of TRM, data fusion level Turkey is aiming to achieve, what kind of IRST they are planning to use, infos about the EW suite, what kind of flight control models they are trying to implement, which kind of navigation methods they are trying to develop, which kind of data link is going to be used, nothing.

Maybe there could be someone who could shed the light on the avionics side of things but not with some speculation but with documents.
 
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We will soon have installed the AESA Radar on F-16s
F-16-AESA-Radar.jpg


The Turkish Armed Forces will meet the National AESA Radar technology with the applications to be carried out on the AKINCI Unmanned Aerial Vehicle and F-16 Fighting Falcon fighter aircraft.

To be used in F-16 Fighting Falcon warplanes in the inventory of Turkish Air Force Command; A protocol was signed between the SSB, Air Force Command and ASELSAN for the development of the Multifunctional AESA Nose Radar in 2018, and radar development studies were initiated. This multiple protocol, signed in 2018, was followed by the "F-16 AESA Nose Radar Development Project Phase-1 Protocol" signed between the Presidency of Defense Industry (SSB) and ASELSAN in 2019.


President of the Presidency of Defense Industry, Professor, who answered the questions of SavunmaSanayiST.com. Dr. İsmail DEMİR touched upon the latest situation in AESA Radar development projects carried out by ASELSAN.

Prof. Dr. İsmail DEMİR said, “Work continues on the AESA radar. In a very short time, we will have attached the AESA radar to our F-16s, and these two studies were again the steps we had to take on the National Combat Aircraft. So we got it ahead. We think that the modernization of the F-16s in this sense and even the structural and avionic modernization will extend the life of the aircraft even more. made statements.

SSB-Soylesi-4.jpg



Directed by SavunmaSanayiST, “Mr. President, can we see AESA radar in AKINCI before F-16? Answering the question in the form of ”Chairman DEMİR, “ We can see. This AESA radar will go gradually. The final phase will end after a few years, but the first models will continue to be developed and developed as in aviation. said.

According to the information obtained; ASELSAN will reach a significant competence with the AESA radars it will develop for AKINCI and F-16 platforms, and will evaluate this competence in the Integrated RF System (BÜRFİS) it will develop for the National Combat Aircraft (MMU). ÇAFRAD Project is also in a very important position for this competence.

AESA radars to be developed by ASELSAN will be suitable for both air and ground missions, that is, multi-functional. Among the functions of AESA Radars to be developed by ASELSAN; air search, searching tracking, sensitive tracking, weather detection, air-to-air missile mid-phase guidance support, flock detection and evaluation, stripmap imaging, spotlight imaging, ground mapping, GMTI, DMTI, sea search, ISAR imaging and air-ground distance measurement will also be found.

It is estimated that ASELSAN will deliver its first AESA Radar in 2021
HÜRJET engine selection GE F404

Turkish Aviation and Space Industry Inc. (TAI), the General Electric F404 engine will be used in the HÜRJET Jet Training and Light Attack Aircraft.

HÜRJET
Jet Training and Light Attack Aircraft Project, which started conceptual design activities by TUSAŞ on August 14, 2017, continues successfully, based on the Jet Evolution Aircraft needs of the Turkish Air Force Command . The competition for the engine to be used in the HÜRJET Program, whose first flight is planned to take place in December 2022, has been going on for a long time. For the engine of HÜRJET, the F404-GE-102 produced by the US-based General Electric company and the EUROJET EJ200 Turbofan Engines used in the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter aircraft were prominent.

According to the information obtained by SavunmaSanayiST.com; Within the scope of the HÜRJET Program, the EUROJET EJ200 Turbofan Engine has dropped from the agenda. In the light of this development, it is estimated that the F404 Turbofan Engine produced by General Electric will be used in HÜRJET. The partnership between TUSAŞ Engine Industry (TEI) and General Electric and the use of the GE engine in the South Korea-based KAI-manufactured T-50 Golden Eagle aircraft, which will be HÜRJET's most important competitor in the international market, strengthens this forecast. Also; The fact that the EUROJET EJ200 has never been used in a single-engine configuration before is considered to be another factor that strengthens the selection of the F404.
 
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